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Thread: Heavy-lift boosters?

  1. #211
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    Russia has had a finalised concept for a mega-rocket since 1990, call me when there is one heading for the launch pad.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Russia has had a finalised concept for a mega-rocket since 1990, call me when there is one heading for the launch pad.
    I'm going to go with "never happening" and instead they're going to be the ones hitching rides from the US.

    That is if they ever have a payload that even needs that kind of Heavy Lift Capability.

    Falcon Heavy I fear will slip to Spring of 2017 - but is still currently on the books for Dec 2016.. SLS currently has a "no later than" date of November 2018. I'm not sure how to
    take "no later than" estimates - given the nature of delays in the space industry at large.
    Last edited by Sardonicone; 2016-Jun-21 at 08:47 PM. Reason: changed "america" to "US"
    What does God need with a starship?

  3. #213
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    The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time. The last 10% of the project takes the other 90% of the time.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time. The last 10% of the project takes the other 90% of the time.
    Wow, 180% of the time to complete a project?

  5. #215
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    Yes, and that's when everything goes according to plan.

  6. #216
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    China is still planing to build their own heavy lift rocket.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20..._135463945.htm

    China is planning to start using a huge carrier rocket powerful enough for manned lunar missions before 2031.

    The new rocket will measure over a hundred meters in length and nearly 10 meters in diameter under the current design, according to a statement issued on Friday by the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technologies (CALT), developer of the country's Long March rocket series,

    It will have a maximum payload capacity more than five times as high as the current Long March series rockets, the CALT said, without offering specific figures.

  7. #217
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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    China is still planing to build their own heavy lift rocket.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20..._135463945.htm
    More details of the Long March 9 in this report. It follows Trebuchet's theory of the 1st 90% taking 10% of the time and the remaining 10% will take 90% of the time. They hope to have the details ready by 2019 and test flight it in 2030

    http://gbtimes.com/china/china-devel...-rocket-series

    Lei also stated that CASC is working on the necessary technical breakthroughs for the Long March 9, which would boost upwards of 100 tons of carrying capacity to low-Earth orbit.

    The super-heavy lift rocket, which would be similar in capability to the Saturn V that took US astronauts to the Moon in the 1960s and 70s, would allow China to attempt its own crewed lunar landings.

    "The technical breakthrough is expected to be achieved by 2019. The preliminary discussion shows that its carrying capacity is about 100 tonnes to 130 tonnes on near-earth orbit to be able to probe farther planets and carry people to moon for scientific research," Lei said.

    Long March 9 is expected to be nearly 10 metres in diameter, over 100 metres tall, and have a mass of 3,000 tonnes, rivalling the NASA's Space Launch System (SLS), the heaviest configuration of which is expected to fly in the early 2020s.

    The China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT) and the Academy of Aerospace Propulsion Technology (AAPT) under CASC also recently successfully performed tests on a kerosene and liquid oxygen rocket engine capable of producing the thrust necessary to power the Long March 9.

    Long March 9 is still in the very early stages of development, and not expected to make its maiden flight until around 2030. The first major use could be a Mars sample return, which China has slated for 2030.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    More details of the Long March 9 in this report. It follows Trebuchet's theory of the 1st 90% taking 10% of the time and the remaining 10% will take 90% of the time.
    No, no. It's the ninety-ninety rule. The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the development time. And the last 10% of the project... takes the other 90% of the development time.
    Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    No, no. It's the ninety-ninety rule. The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the development time. And the last 10% of the project... takes the other 90% of the development time.
    The Chinese have changed the rules to fit the 100% rule

  11. #221
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    I hope their plans work out.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    The Chinese have changed the rules to fit the 100% rule
    ...probably by the simple expedient of re-writing the schedule on the fly to match the development.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    ...probably by the simple expedient of re-writing the schedule on the fly to match the development.
    I doubt that as the 2030 has been the target for the Long March 9 for some time. What has surprised me was early construction of the O rings and the statement that the technical breakthrough are expected to be achieved by 2019. To me that looks like they are making much quicker progress than expected and will be testing the LM 9 long before 2030.

  14. #224
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    Here is the FAA launch vehicle compendium--a large PDF:

    http://www.space.taurigroup.com/repo...ndium_2016.pdf
    http://www.space.taurigroup.com/

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    Here is the FAA launch vehicle compendium--a large PDF:

    http://www.space.taurigroup.com/repo...ndium_2016.pdf
    http://www.space.taurigroup.com/
    Wow, does this come out every year? Very good read! (OK, I skimmed through most of it.)

  16. #226
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    I think the AIAA has one of their own.

    They have a good website: http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/book/10.2514/MSPACE15

    If you can afford it--they have a nice JOURNAL OF ROCKETS http://arc.aiaa.org/loi/jsr

    An example http://arc.aiaa.org/toc/jsr/53/3

    Russian engine video: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...?topic=41500.0
    LM-5 on the move--to be launched soon--Delta IV class.
    http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...topic=39415.20
    Last edited by publiusr; 2016-Oct-28 at 09:00 PM.

  17. #227
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    With SpaceX's announcement of the test on its Falcon Heavy rocket engines I have been expecting articles on the heavy lift rockets.

    Here is one talking about the USA heavy lift rockets and the place of SLS in America's future deep space exploration plans.

    https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/10/1...-origin-spacex

    "An emerging class of powerful rockets is supposed to start flying in the next couple of years. They’re known as heavy-lift launch vehicles. These rockets are capable of getting a whole lot of stuff into space at once — and everyone seems to be making one. SpaceX has been promising that its Falcon Heavy, a larger variant of the Falcon 9 rocket, will fly for the first time this summer. The United Launch Alliance is working on a brand-new vehicle called the Vulcan that’s supposed to fly in 2019. And spaceflight company Blue Origin is the latest to throw its hat in the ring, recently claiming its next big rocket, the New Glenn, will be able to deliver 100,000 pounds of cargo — and eventually people — to lower Earth orbit."

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  18. #228
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    Thanks for the links. Sods dropped the bloody thing. Not like the ITS tank doesn't have problems, though.

    Here is a new video on Sea Dragon
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5B7EKVg48
    Last edited by publiusr; 2017-May-12 at 10:33 PM.

  19. #229
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    While cheering SpaceX's success with the Falcon Heavy rocket, Chinese rocket scientists are hoping that it will be just the push for the Chinese government to give the green light to develop the Long March 9.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplo...cket-scientist

    "China should push ahead with development of its own heavy-lift rocket so that it can surpass SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy, a Chinese rocket scientist said on Thursday.

    Long Lehao, chief carrier rocket designer at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, told Global Times, published under party mouthpiece People’s Daily, that the Long March 9 rocket could be ready within 10 years.

    Preliminary work on the rocket was under way, and scientists were waiting for government approval to go ahead with it, Long said."

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  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    While cheering SpaceX's success with the Falcon Heavy rocket, Chinese rocket scientists are hoping that it will be just the push for the Chinese government to give the green light to develop the Long March 9.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplo...cket-scientist

    "China should push ahead with development of its own heavy-lift rocket so that it can surpass SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy, a Chinese rocket scientist said on Thursday.

    Long Lehao, chief carrier rocket designer at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, told Global Times, published under party mouthpiece People’s Daily, that the Long March 9 rocket could be ready within 10 years.

    Preliminary work on the rocket was under way, and scientists were waiting for government approval to go ahead with it, Long said."

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
    The must have been the green light as this reports indicates they are making progress.

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1091834.shtml

    China is expected to complete construction and fitting work on a prototype of its 500-ton liquid rocket engine within the year, progress toward China's manned interstellar travel programs, Chinese experts said.

    China is currently tackling problems on key technologies of three types of liquid rocket engines for its heavy-lift rockets: the 500-ton engine fueled by liquid oxygen and kerosene, 200-ton and 25-ton engines using liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen as fuel. The country has also completed thermal tests on core modules together with some sub-models for the engines.

    Liu Zhirang, head of the No.6 Research Institute of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC), who is also a deputy to the 13th National People's Congress, made the remarks on Sunday, China's Science and Technology Daily reported on Monday.

    The three types of engines will be applied as different stages of thrusters for the country's heavy-lift launch vehicle and their performance is designed to reach world-leading levels, Liu said, adding it is expected that the assembly and fitting work for the engineering sample of the 500-ton engine will be completed within the year.

    From the prototype to the final delivery of the engine, it would normally take at least five years, which is in keeping with the China's Long March-9 launch schedule, Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Monday.

  21. #231
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    Falcon Heavy is flying, next launch in June - STP-2 for the US Air Force. After that, commercial flights including GEO launches which otherwise would need an expended Falcon 9.

    SpaceX's Gwynne Shotwell says a BFR test flight as early as 2020. The first ship is under construction now, and the BFR reusable satellite deployer appears to be based on the ship.

  22. #232
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    Long March 9 spec is now as powerful as US Saturn V rocket.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/spa...l-as-saturn-v/

    China is working on a new generation of heavy-lift rocket designed to take its taikonauts to the moon and beyond. The Long March 9, as it is informally known, would dwarf SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy. The launch vehicle should be capable of sending 50 metric tons of people and cargo to the moon as China gears up for lunar missions in the early 2030s.

    The next step to building Long March 9 is to complete a demonstrator rocket engine, what China is calling a prototype, according to Aviation Week, which could be completed by the end of this year. The test rocket engine is designed to burn kerosene to put out 480 metric tons of thrust, and a large turbopump for the engine has reportedly already been built by the engineering firm developing the rocket engine, the Academy of Aerospace Propulsion Technology (AAPT). Additional second- and third-stage engines for the rocket, thought to be designed to burn hydrogen fuel, are also under development.

    Long March 9 is China’s biggest and most ambitious rocket program to date. A senior official in the Chinese space industry told Aviation Week that the total thrust at liftoff for Long March 9 should be between 3,500 and 4,000 metric tons, compared to 3,400 metric tons of thrust for the Saturn V rocket that took NASA astronauts to the moon. China’s largest rocket currently in service, the Long March 5, is capable of placing 25,000 kg in LEO. The specifications for Long March 9 call for a rocket with a LEO payload capacity of 140,000 kg or 140 metric tons, almost a sixfold increase in lifting capacity over Long March 5.

    For comparison, Saturn V also had a lifting capability of 140 metric tons to LEO. SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy rocket can place 63 tons in LEO. The aerospace company is building a much larger heavy-lift rocket, however, called BFR, which is planned to have a capacity of 136 metric tons to LEO, making it almost as capable as Long March 9 and Saturn V (although BFR is designed to return and land.)

  23. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Falcon Heavy is flying, next launch in June - STP-2 for the US Air Force. After that, commercial flights including GEO launches which otherwise would need an expended Falcon 9.

    SpaceX's Gwynne Shotwell says a BFR test flight as early as 2020. The first ship is under construction now, and the BFR reusable satellite deployer appears to be based on the ship.
    In what context should I see "ship" here?

  24. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    In what context should I see "ship" here?
    BFS(paceship), the reusable upperstage configurable as a tanker, satellite deployer, cargo/crew. Not shown are 250 kW fan shaped solar arrays which deploy/retract from just above the thrust structure. Said to be capable of Single Stage To Orbit with a small payload, Single Stage To Earth from the Moon or Mars. Full lunar landing missions with a single refuelling in Earth orbit. VTOL.

    Hop, leap and heat shield tests starting in 2019, likely from the Brownsville Texas launch complex, then a full-stack orbital mission in 2020/2021.

    The BFS test vehicle is under construction now at an undiscloeed location, but a BFR/BFS factory will be going in on Terminal Island at the Port of LA as soon as the lease is signed - the Port has already approved it. A second BFR/BRS factory is under negotiation at KSC, the parties being SpaceX, NASA and Space Florida - the state space development agency. Most likely south of the KSC Visitors Center in/near Exploration Park.

    Make no mistake: SpaceX is now 7,000 strong and very, very serious about this.

    Last edited by docmordrid; 2018-Mar-22 at 09:10 AM.

  25. #235
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    Musk/SpaceX need to make toys of these concepts. They'd sell better than flamethrowers. Each month--in a loot crate, show a different non-BFS payload. Big scope, project Thr,one piece lunar base/lander, etc.

    Idea of SLS and super ACES
    http://selenianboondocks.com/2013/06...-a-super-aces/

  26. #236
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    Something that grabbed my attention.

    There has been some speculation that the New Armstrong Uber HLLV may be 30 meters wide.
    https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/in...287#msg1827287

    That's enough for a monolithic--non inflatable Mars Aeroshell.

  27. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    Something that grabbed my attention.

    There has been some speculation that the New Armstrong Uber HLLV may be 30 meters wide.
    https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/in...287#msg1827287

    That's enough for a monolithic--non inflatable Mars Aeroshell.
    First, he's saying VTVL scales up well, he's not saying New Armstrong will be 30 meters.
    Second...so's every other launcher in existence. Do you have some particular reason why a 30 m aeroshell specifically would be significant?

  28. #238
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    Falcon Heavy: USAF certifies for EELV

    FH: USAF STP-2, November
    FH: ArabSat 6, H1 2019
    FH: USAF AFSPC-52, 2020 ($130m competed bid)

    BFR/BFS: Raptor engine uses single-crystal superalloys (SX 300/SX 500), pump pressure 800 bar.

    BFR factory site demolition has begun, temporary factory was up last December.

    BFR composite hull mandrel in April. Tesla Model 3 for scale, in temporary factory.

    https://twitter.com/AscentAerospace/...035980800?s=19
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2018-Jun-25 at 05:00 AM.

  29. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    Do you have some particular reason why a 30 m aeroshell specifically would be significant?
    It means that a very wide aeroshell need not be inflatable--or that an inflatable version atop a 30 meter vehicle could expand even wider--allowing even more mass to be delivered to Mars. Very wide 'chutes not packed as dense as wood.

  30. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    It means that a very wide aeroshell need not be inflatable--or that an inflatable version atop a 30 meter vehicle could expand even wider--allowing even more mass to be delivered to Mars. Very wide 'chutes not packed as dense as wood.
    You appear to be assuming a 30 m diameter vehicle would have a similar payload mass as smaller diameter vehicles. That's completely bonkers.

    The need for things like inflatable decelerators (or for a completely different approach to reentry and landing, like the BFS) increases with scale.

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