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Thread: The last and final argument about reality.

  1. #11851
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Tigers and kittens are equally real. The threat to my existence, by entering the zoo's cage is not real?
    The threat to your existence is real, simply because that's what you mean by all those words of yours. But that threat has nothing to do with why you think tigers are real because, as you just proved, you also think kittens are real. We build an MDR for all kinds of reasons, and avoiding threats to our existence is only one tiny part of that. Maybe a thousand years ago when our brains were still evolving, the process was largely focused on survival, but we've gone way beyond that now. We don't think rocks are real because they'll kill us if we don't think they're real, and geologists don't study rocks to help keep them from killing people who stand under them or drive into them. We think rocks are real because it is a successful model we have created. Successful models, like models of kittens, work well for us in a thousand ways, all of which go into our MDR, not just what could kill us. So dangers to our existence are irrelevant to the MDR vs. MIR dichotomy. Notice I didn't say threats to our existence aren't real, since such threats are certainly part (a small part) of what we mean by our word "real." What I did say is that threats to existence are not central to the issues of what we mean by "real," so it would be incorrect to say that our concept of reality is driven by our need to survive. Our concept of reality goes way way beyond just that.
    If I cross the street, see a speeding car, faint out of fright, and get run over, terminating my existence, where is the mind dependency?
    An excellent question, quite central to this thread, and very testable. So let's be scientists, and test it!

    First of all, note that your question started with the word "if." This means you are asking a hypothetical question! Well, the mind dependence in a hypothetical question is completely obvious, you can't get anything more demonstrably mind dependent that something you are only imagining. Where are we to imagine this scenario you cite? In our minds, of course. So will our minds imagine precisely the same thing, as we discuss it? Of course not, if our minds differ, what we will be talking about must clearly also differ. So we have a very testable mind dependence, we need only be scientists and dig into it-- we can start asking ourselves questions like "what are we imagining here," including "what counts as a street," and "how fast does a car have to move to be called speeding," etc. When we do these observations, we will immediately discover the mind dependence, and voila, your question is answered.

    Now, a more difficult question is, "when does the mind dependence matter?" That's more central to the issues of science, related to questions like "when does the gravity of the Sun matter when we are talking about falling objects on Earth," etc. Important scientific questions, helpful for unearthing all the devices we use to build an MDR. The beauty of recognizing the mind dependence is that it makes it easy for us to cope with issues like "when does it matter," whereas MIR believers are saddled with the problem that everything has to matter to the reality, if it is part of "what is really happening" in a mind independent sense. Only a mind can say "but that doesn't matter," and indeed we do, in mind-dependent ways, constantly.
    Last edited by Ken G; 2017-Apr-09 at 09:55 PM.

  2. #11852
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    There are two components to sticking one's head in a tiger's mouth. Pain, and death.
    Whatever pain is, it seems pretty real to me, and death is a big mystery.
    Formerly Frog march..............

    “One is never alone with a rubber duck.” The Golgafrinchan Ark B captain

  3. #11853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frog march View Post
    There are two components to sticking one's head in a tiger's mouth. Pain, and death.
    Whatever pain is, it seems pretty real to me, and death is a big mystery.
    well yes, pain is part of the sensory input through which we build our concept of what is real, and thus in itself real. however if you were a rock, would you feel pain? what would pain be to a rock? etc etc. Pain is a thing the mind experiences, and thusd is part of our reality concept.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  4. #11854
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    Indeed, another concrete test of the MDR hypothesis. In the way Frog march's mind participates in the creation of its reality, pain is real and death is a mystery, so is hard to view as real if we can't even say what that experience is (since, if our awareness is somehow transported or released by death, then that's a very different thing than if it ends, etc.). Even if we hold that death is an end to experience, it means we can only experience dying, but not death. So those who define what is real by what they experience, then their own death does not qualify as real.

    To other minds, the opposite might hold. They might view pain as a kind of illusion, a mistake of their senses that evolved to help them survive, but the pain itself is not "really happening," it is merely a sense reaction to what is really happening. They might say that what is really happening is a reconfiguring of the structure of their cells, that they perceive as pain simply because that's what they are wired to do. But such a mind might regard their own death as a real thing, because it ushers in a significant change in the functioning of their body, even if they never come under the illusion of experiencing death. So such a viewpoint is that awareness and sense experience are both illusions of complex arrangements of nerves, fooling us into thinking that is what is actually real, whereas all that is truly real there is the chemical potentials and so forth, the overall physical functioning of the machine that is you.

    So even the view "the one thing I know is real is my own awareness" is already seen to be a clearly testable example of the mind dependence of our concept of "what exists."
    Last edited by Ken G; 2017-Apr-09 at 10:08 PM.

  5. #11855
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    as with many times, I wish there was a like button... very much spot on.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  6. #11856
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    and coming back to a long forgotten (it seems) top 10 list the two of us wrote. It may in fact be of great utility to consider both as true at different times within different contexts.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  7. #11857
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    what is truth?
    Formerly Frog march..............

    “One is never alone with a rubber duck.” The Golgafrinchan Ark B captain

  8. #11858
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    subjective or objective?
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  9. #11859
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    you used the word.

    Formerly Frog march..............

    “One is never alone with a rubber duck.” The Golgafrinchan Ark B captain

  10. #11860
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    ok, well, to involve in a bit of circumlocation

    subjective truth is that which makes sense to you, it is purely dependent upon your own mind
    objective truth: this is what a group of people agree upon, it is dependent upon the extent that those people think in similar ways.

    There is nothing mind independent in either case, unless you choose to believe thee is.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  11. #11861
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    I wouldn't say that that was objective. Someone who is an observer can observe everyone but themselves. If they observer themselves then they will observe themselves, observing themselves, observing themselves..etc..........I don't think there is such a thing as complete objectivity.
    Formerly Frog march..............

    “One is never alone with a rubber duck.” The Golgafrinchan Ark B captain

  12. #11862
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    precisely, the only objectiveity we have is concensus
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  13. #11863
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    precisely, the only objectiveity we have is concensus
    If true, I'm signing up for a one trip to Mars despite the chances of a successful landing being less than 1%.

  14. #11864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canis Lupus View Post
    If true, I'm signing up for a one trip to Mars despite the chances of a successful landing being less than 1%.
    ahh with respect to what is reality, but within this we can be pretty sure of certain things in a mind dependent sense, what we dont actually know is how any of this would be in a mind independent sense
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 12:50 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  15. #11865
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    Let's try and tackle the question from another perspective: if reality is mind dependent, how does one explain that things happen which are mind independent?

    Sounds like MIR is MDR.....
    Last edited by gzhpcu; 2017-Apr-10 at 07:15 AM.

  16. #11866
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Let's try and tackle the question from another perspective: if reality is mind dependent, how does one explain that things happen which are mind independent?

    Sounds like MIR is MDR.....
    The only way you experience that things happen is that your mind, including memory, processes the signals from eyes, ears and all your many senses, and arrives at a conclusion in mind "that thing happened"
    the very idea that things happen is the way the mind interprets signals.
    There is no reality signal, there are only electrical impulses travelling down neurons and some chemistry in your brain.
    If you believe in a reality signal such as voices in your head or some feeling of communion with the universe, as experienced by some in my area of work, then as scientists we say they are still the mind at work. The mind/brain is quite amazing in its abilities but we have to recognise it is an interpretation and prediction engine. External reality is a belief system, by definition really.

    This does not mean we experience "things that happen" differently, although in detail that must be true since we occupy different space/time, but the issue here is what you can know versus what you believe.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  17. #11867
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    talking is one thing - experiencing is something else. If I cross the street, see a speeding car, faint out of fright, and get run over, terminating my existence, where is the mind dependency?
    I want to pick up on one little bit of this that has kind of been brushed under the carpet

    "talking is one thing - experiencing is something else"

    the information about 'reality' that your senses give is most certainly dependent upon the way your brain works in delivering that information, (whether there is MIR or not, behind them), thus your experiences as well as your logic are mind dependent. If your brain worked differently you would very likely experience things differently, and the logic which you apply would also be different, this is what is meant by mind dependency and why MDR is not claiming a truth to idealism, its claiming a truth to neither realism or idealism. Its merely a fact that no matter how hard you try, you simply fail to remove yourself from any conclusion, we choose to ignore our role because it makes sense to do so, but in truth you never actually can remove yourself from it, if you want to talk in absolute terms. EVen if you don;t apply logic to it to make conscious sense, the phenomena you experience are already mind dependent, because they depend upon the action of your brain in transmitting them to your awareness. This is precisely why no measurement etc, no observation, nothing can entirely remove you, to anywhere near the extent required to claim something is true of MIR as anything more than merely a statement of pure belief

    I am happy to state as a statement of belief that there is an MIR, the existence of which to me is a necessary part of my mind dependent sense making of what I experience. I try to make no claims about it anymore though, because I know my experience of it, my sense making of it etc are all dependent upon the way I work, so such a claim is a contradiction. When one is working in the province of empirical science here, the correct position is one of agnosticism though, MIR is a personal matter, not something that has any play in Poppers 3rd world, where science operates.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 09:07 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  18. #11868
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    The only way you experience that things happen is that your mind, including memory, processes the signals from eyes, ears and all your many senses, and arrives at a conclusion in mind "that thing happened"
    the very idea that things happen is the way the mind interprets signals.
    There is no reality signal, there are only electrical impulses travelling down neurons and some chemistry in your brain.
    If you believe in a reality signal such as voices in your head or some feeling of communion with the universe, as experienced by some in my area of work, then as scientists we say they are still the mind at work. The mind/brain is quite amazing in its abilities but we have to recognise it is an interpretation and prediction engine. External reality is a belief system, by definition really.



    This does not mean we experience "things that happen" differently, although in detail that must be true since we occupy different space/time, but the issue here is what you can know versus what you believe.

    Sorry Profloater I missed that you had already addressed this.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  19. #11869
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    The only way you experience that things happen is that your mind, including memory, processes the signals from eyes, ears and all your many senses, and arrives at a conclusion in mind "that thing happened"
    the very idea that things happen is the way the mind interprets signals.
    There is no reality signal, there are only electrical impulses travelling down neurons and some chemistry in your brain.
    If you believe in a reality signal such as voices in your head or some feeling of communion with the universe, as experienced by some in my area of work, then as scientists we say they are still the mind at work. The mind/brain is quite amazing in its abilities but we have to recognise it is an interpretation and prediction engine. External reality is a belief system, by definition really.

    This does not mean we experience "things that happen" differently, although in detail that must be true since we occupy different space/time, but the issue here is what you can know versus what you believe.
    so you are saying the mind is the source of the signals from the eyes, ears, etc. The brain auto creates its own signals?

  20. #11870
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    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    I want to pick up on one little bit of this that has kind of been brushed under the carpet

    "talking is one thing - experiencing is something else"

    the information about 'reality' that your senses give is most certainly dependent upon the way your brain works in delivering that information, (whether there is MIR or not, behind them), thus your experiences as well as your logic are mind dependent. If your brain worked differently you would very likely experience things differently, and the logic which you apply would also be different, this is what is meant by mind dependency and why MDR is not claiming a truth to idealism, its claiming a truth to neither realism or idealism. Its merely a fact that no matter how hard you try, you simply fail to remove yourself from any conclusion, we choose to ignore our role because it makes sense to do so, but in truth you never actually can remove yourself from it, if you want to talk in absolute terms. EVen if you don;t apply logic to it to make conscious sense, the phenomena you experience are already mind dependent, because they depend upon the action of your brain in transmitting them to your awareness. This is precisely why no measurement etc, no observation, nothing can entirely remove you, to anywhere near the extent required to claim something is true of MIR as anything more than merely a statement of pure belief
    So an alien with a different brain landing in North Indian, encountering a tiger, which attacks it, might be in no danger?

  21. #11871
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    The issue my friend, isn't where such comes from, its that our brain is acting upon it before it reaches your awareness, as a result of which whether or not there is a source, you are not experiencing it, you are experiencing things in the way your brain is set upto deliver them to you.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  22. #11872
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    So an alien with a different brain landing in North Indian, encountering a tiger, which attacks it, might be in no danger?
    a question I can only answer using my logic, which is rooted in the way I work. So to my mind of course such an alien, if not able to defend itself might be at risk. Of course also the tiger may not recognize it as a food source or a threat and thus the alien might be in no danger. If the alien wasn't corporeal in the way we are, it may not even see the tiger, or might see it as no different to a rock. Anything might be true of the alien

    The key point is that all of this may or may not be true of MIR, but is utterly irrelevant to our own models that make up our reality concept. Reality is something we define in relation to how what we perceive as the universe affects us. Reality exists in a meaningful sense only within our own heads, because that is what we are making sense of.

    So when we use our logic to say there is no invisible elf in the garden, what we are in fact doing is short-cutting. What it in fact comes down to, is that we have no reason to suggest that in any meaningful sense to us, there is an invisible elf in the middle of the garden. Anything beyond that, is pure personal belief.

    Of course, if someone believed there was and as a result of which started taking actions, then we might be forced to accept that in some meaningful sense there is, not because its there is a sense that can directly affect us, but because its there subjectively to that person, to which we then apply our sense making models as to how to deal with this.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 10:30 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  23. #11873
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    Hey, fast responses! You waiting on your computer?//

  24. #11874
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    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    The issue my friend, isn't where such comes from, its that our brain is acting upon it before it reaches your awareness, as a result of which whether or not there is a source, you are not experiencing it, you are experiencing things in the way your brain is set upto deliver them to you.
    I beg to differ. What does the brain act on. You spoke of signals delivered by the senses. I am asking about the source, triggering consciousness. Is the brain its own god?

  25. #11875
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    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    a question I can only answer using my logic, which is rooted in the way I work. So to my mind of course such an alien, if not able to defend itself might be at risk. Of course also the tiger may not recognize it as a food source or a threat and thus the alien might be in no danger. If the alien wasn't corporeal in the way we are, it may not even see the tiger, or might see it as no different to a rock. Anything might be true of the alien

    The key point is that all of this may or may not be true of MIR, but is utterly irrelevant to our own models that make up our reality concept. Reality is something we define in relation to how what we perceive as the universe affects us. Reality exists in a meaningful sense only within our own heads, because that is what we are making sense of.

    So when we use our logic to say there is no invisible elf in the garden, what we are in fact doing is short-cutting. What it in fact comes down to, is that we have no reason to suggest that in any meaningful sense to us, there is an invisible elf in the middle of the garden. Anything beyond that, is pure personal belief.

    Of course, if someone believed there was and as a result of which started taking actions, then we might be forced to accept that in some meaningful sense there is, not because its there is a sense that can directly affect us, but because its there subjectively to that person, to which we then apply our sense making models as to how to deal with this.
    invisible elves are posited with no stimulus. Pure imagination.

  26. #11876
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    I beg to differ. What does the brain act on. You spoke of signals delivered by the senses. I am asking about the source, triggering consciousness. Is the brain its own god?
    I was reading through to see if I needed to add anything lol

    right, the point isn't whether or not there is a source, you know I believe there is. The answer in an objective sense is unknown though, another answer doesn't make sense to me but to others it does. The issue is we have absolutely no way, outside of the answer we put into things in the first place to tell between them. That is if you put MIR in, you get MIR out. You cannot make sense without MIR and thus anything we see is consistent with it, this is true because you are not pre-defining what MIR is as a theory, you are simply saying that it is a source for whatever it is you do experience, thus whatever you experience is always going to be MIR or at least has its source in MIR. This is why its pure belief, you fundamentally never test it because its unfalsifiable except through your chosen MDR logic, that makes such a claim a contradiction.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  27. #11877
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    invisible elves are posited with no stimulus. Pure imagination.
    yes and notice your mind at work there, the axioms you are invoking.

    ETA: axioms, that are rooted in science, and which other people do not take as truth and by nature cannot be properly tested. You have a scientific mindset and thus you interpret things scientifically. Science works, but it doesn't mean its actually telling the whole story. In this case the axiom of consensus observation that science rests upon in drawing its conclusions, might not be completely correct. Maybe there are things that only 1 person could see, but that isn't something science could really study.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 10:42 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  28. #11878
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    Either there is an MDR-interpreted MIR or MDR is god. My MDR, and you and Ken are jusy (annoying) figments of my imagination...

  29. #11879
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Either there is an MDR-interpreted MIR or MDR is god. My MDR, and you and Ken are jusy (annoying) figments of my imagination...
    this may be true, and you know which side my belief lies upon. BUT this tells you nothing about it. Nothing in MIR demands that there couldn't for instance be experiences that only 1 of us might experience, even if science says not, that is MDR at play. It doesn't tell you, how much your experience matches up to the actual MIR that feeds your perception. It informs nothing, other than to create a source for your reality.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 11:41 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  30. #11880
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    The moment you try to understand anything of it, you are in the realm of MDR, indeed you entered it before this, because the very things you are trying to interpret are presented to you in MDR terms. MIR is just a source beyond this you are in MDR, so your reality is not the MIR source, it is the MDR source that feeds your sense making. Realism/Idealism its all the same to your sense making activity. If we take your MDR doichotomy, then it falls to you to demonstrate that all forms of idealism are false, thus if your binary is true, you have demonstrated that some form of realism must be true. (ignoring the fact that this inherently relies on axioms, making it mind dependent) no test has yet been put forward that can do this, short of argument by incredulity.

    ETA: so its not just a case that the mind is involved and thus we fundamentally cannot separate ourselves out from out description, it the case that even within our MDR we cannot at an objective level satisfactorily demonstrate which is correct, we just have our own opinions
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-10 at 11:58 AM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

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