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Thread: The last and final argument about reality.

  1. #12571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    It's almost like you are saying that what we hold to be true about reality depends on our minds. Oh, wait....
    No, just goes to show that agreement is not mandatory. Reality is that we are different in our way of thinking.

  2. #12572
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    After an endless discussion and endless loops, I'll conclude with my position:

    How can something as immaterial as consciousness ever arise from something as unconscious as matter? That is a mystery.

    We might interpret the universe with our senses/brain but the physical source is out there (color is an interpretation, for example, but the wave frequencies remain).

    The attributes of the universe, as we interpret them, might cease to exist if we are not around. But the sources remain.

    We are not the only intelligent, conscious entities in the universe. In our visible universe alone there are uncountable other intelligent, conscious beings.

    Guess for the umpteenth time, I will take a break, because we are getting nowhere. Interesting discussion, in any case.

  3. #12573
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    No, just goes to show that agreement is not mandatory. Reality is that we are different in our way of thinking.
    Yes, that's what reality is all right!
    How can something as immaterial as consciousness ever arise from something as unconscious as matter? That is a mystery.
    Yes.
    We might interpret the universe with our senses/brain but the physical source is out there (color is an interpretation, for example, but the wave frequencies remain).
    The concepts of a "physical source", and being "out there", are also interpretations of our senses/brains, just as much as is "the universe."
    The attributes of the universe, as we interpret them, might cease to exist if we are not around. But the sources remain.
    That is the way we understand our concept of a "source," yes. That is indeed how our mind-conceived model works.
    We are not the only intelligent, conscious entities in the universe. In our visible universe alone there are uncountable other intelligent, conscious beings.
    That does seem very likely, yes, and each has their own concept of what the universe is, what intelligence is, and what a conscious entity is. Some might seem very simplistic to us, others might blow our minds with their profoundness, others still we might not even begin to comprehend in the least. Any possible spandrel of the evolutionary process is likely to be out there somewhere, along with every possible pathway of cultural advancement that isn't truncated by chance or competition. Yet the naive realist holds that somehow they all converge on the same "true" reality, and the argument goes something like a single example of brain architecture and overall DNA pattern is enough to demonstrate the necessity of convergence. This despite failure to demonstrate conceptual convergence even in the science of that one single example!
    Last edited by Ken G; 2017-Nov-10 at 10:23 PM.

  4. #12574
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    in connection with the much discussed MDR may I recommend this very new WP page on interoception, the detail about which I have been banging on (I did not author any of it!)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoception
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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