Page 399 of 405 FirstFirst ... 299349389397398399400401 ... LastLast
Results 11,941 to 11,970 of 12149

Thread: The last and final argument about reality.

  1. #11941
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    The whole point of philosophical questions like this, is not to say something is true. Rather to point out the assumptions you are making in your MDR assertions, i.e. to point out where you are just conflating belief with fact. Its not over thinking to ask them, its belief apologist argument to call them over thinking etc and try to brush real issues under the carpet, its a failure to at least recognize that part of your personal reality is actually just your belief, that you cannot, but in fact cannot be required to justify. You are only required to justify that which you wish to claim is objective fact.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-11 at 12:29 PM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  2. #11942
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    25,286
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Taking a step back: how does a mind come into existence?
    What are we going to use to get our answer to that?

  3. #11943
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    What are we going to use to get our answer to that?
    Now that i think about it...this is actually a very good question.

  4. #11944
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    7,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    What are we going to use to get our answer to that?
    well if it goes back to the formation of the first cells, perhaps computer simulations, one day, can show that chance is too incredibly small for it to happen without intelligents.

    Well it's a start.
    ................

  5. #11945
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    What are we going to use to get our answer to that?
    I think, therefore I am.

    Interesting concept indeed.... and in a way... at least from my standpoint of relative ignorance.... related to the more recent research and claims regarding a holographic universe.

  6. #11946
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    170
    The concept of "existence" predating "reality" is an interesting one. It leads me to another analysis of the linguistics we are bound by. I appreciate the previous statement, from malaidas I think?, that tied MIR to "existence" whereas MDR tied to "reality". So then MDR is relative, yes? MIR would be in absolute terms?

  7. #11947
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    howdy Badtrip, welcome to the never ending thread

    Actually that distinction was presented by Gzhpcu, I just commented on it.
    Last edited by malaidas; 2017-Apr-11 at 02:26 PM.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  8. #11948
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    170
    And good day to you malaidas.

    Thank you for correcting my reference. I went back a page looking for it but must have skipped over it multiple times. .....or else it wasn't part of my own personal reality. heh

  9. #11949
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by BadTrip View Post
    And good day to you malaidas.

    Thank you for correcting my reference. I went back a page looking for it but must have skipped over it multiple times. .....or else it wasn't part of my own personal reality. heh
    easily done, when this thread gets a going, it gets a going lol
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  10. #11950
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    its not just akin, its precisely the same question, the answer to which is it just doesn't make any real sense to see things in that way. There's no proof statement in there, just MDR in operation
    Which just goes to show how little sense MDR makes.

  11. #11951
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    hmmmm! it goes to show you are still missing the point lol
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  12. #11952
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    the point is we choose, as a part of our sense making to see that such a scenario doesn't work for us in our sense making, it doesn't make it false. Its just that other explanations are better for us. this is MDR, its nothing to do with some MIR.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  13. #11953
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    the point is we choose, as a part of our sense making to see that such a scenario doesn't work for us in our sense making, it doesn't make it false. Its just that other explanations are better for us. this is MDR, its nothing to do with some MIR.
    seems more and more like fantasizing to me.

  14. #11954
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Norfolk UK and some of me is in Northern France
    Posts
    6,502
    gzhpcu at leasts persists while I guess most gave up, maybe a few changed their view, mostly towards the MDR hypothesis I hope.
    I imagined the thread would ver towards the competing interpretations of the quantum world, or maybe the cosmic ideas. But here we are battling over "I refute it thus" kicking the stone. Safer than kicking a tiger, but ignoring, I suggest, the whole brain argument. How does an MIR gnostic suggest a brain based mind can test the knowledge? I can understand a theist, it's an untestable way of explaining a beginning for example. I can understand any of the many belief systems as beliefs that make sense of experience. That's MDR. But I cannot find a way to get these ideas across in a didactic way. It has become a challenge. My maths teacher, years ago, recounted his difficulty in trying to get the concept of a third across to someone stuck on halves.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  15. #11955
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    seems more and more like fantasizing to me.
    Its not, its honestly over our knowledge and how in fact we get to choose how we wish to view things for our utility.... You want to refute, then i shall repeat the requirement... show us something that in fact is mind independent?
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  16. #11956
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    gzhpcu at leasts persists while I guess most gave up, maybe a few changed their view, mostly towards the MDR hypothesis I hope.
    I imagined the thread would ver towards the competing interpretations of the quantum world, or maybe the cosmic ideas. But here we are battling over "I refute it thus" kicking the stone. Safer than kicking a tiger, but ignoring, I suggest, the whole brain argument. How does an MIR gnostic suggest a brain based mind can test the knowledge? I can understand a theist, it's an untestable way of explaining a beginning for example. I can understand any of the many belief systems as beliefs that make sense of experience. That's MDR. But I cannot find a way to get these ideas across in a didactic way. It has become a challenge. My maths teacher, years ago, recounted his difficulty in trying to get the concept of a third across to someone stuck on halves.
    Well yes I agree
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  17. #11957
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    i sit here on my balcony, overlooking the lake of Lugano, and see a wonderful world, and am happy to be alive, then I think about MDR saying it is all a creation of my mind. A figment of my mind. Can not accept that...

  18. #11958
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    i sit here on my balcony, overlooking the lake of Lugano, and see a wonderful world, and am happy to be alive, then I think about MDR saying it is all a creation of my mind. A figment of my mind. Can not accept that...
    and still you are equating MDR with idealism
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  19. #11959
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    why not also recognize the beauty of your mind in creating the image to you as it does (regardless of the realism/idealism debate). There is nothing in MDR to make you not feel the same way, to deny your feelings, indeed it supports such in a far more real sense than any notion of MIR can ever do.
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  20. #11960
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    My mind interprets it dies not create....

  21. #11961
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    so your mind cannot be creative ?
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  22. #11962
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    PS: 39 posts to go
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  23. #11963
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    7,435
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    PS: 39 posts to go
    That reminds me of an old Monty Python book.

    38 posts
    ................

  24. #11964
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    so your mind cannot be creative ?
    I should have said fantasize, sorry. When it does, it knows it is.

  25. #11965
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    Searching with google, I see lots of philiosophy forums debating this issue withno closure in sight....

  26. #11966
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    yup. because this debate will never end
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  27. #11967
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    I should have said fantasize, sorry. When it does, it knows it is.
    prove this
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

  28. #11968
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    This proves that I am right...

  29. #11969
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    6,620
    Quote Originally Posted by malaidas View Post
    prove this
    Easy - when it is nonsense....

  30. #11970
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    4,218
    ok lets reiterate here, belief wise I am on your side, but the reason you see it as nonsense is because that is what your sense making delivers. SO if someone makes sense in a different way from you they might reach a different conclusion
    You're really not going to like it, the meaning of life the universe and everything is.... is.... 42!
    What??????
    is that all you have to show for 7.5 million years of work?????
    it was a tricky assignment.

    "Live Long and Prosper" in memory of Leonard Nimoy
    "I think I'll change my name to Cliff. "Cliff, I can't see anyone lasting in this industry with a name like Cliff" in memory of Terry Pratchett

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •