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Thread: Procedural Question

  1. #1
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    Procedural Question

    This post says that the feedback forum isn't the right place for humor about posters names and such, but the OP was initially about a moderator action, even if no criticism was present.

    How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
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    Maybe people missed your point. I certainly didn't read it as having anything to do with moderator action - it seemed no more than a joke about the name of a suspended poster, with a very careful disclaimer that it wasn't a criticism of moderator action. Was there another point?

    Grant Hutchison

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    To this reader it seemed to be purely an attempt at observational humor, completely bereft of a feedback component.

    I don't understand why it was left to go on as long as it did.
    0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...
    ATM is so 20th Century.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
    Once the "coloured ink" is used (excluding black as a colour and white as pointless) one must treat it as thunder in the sky - there being no use trying to conduct a dialogue with thunder unless you want to be hit by lightening.

    The feedback forum does appear to be a grey area in the case of "coloured ink", where the rule is more flexible. Maybe there can be some clarification of that by someone in authority or in the know.

    Despite assurances that honest, non-abusive feedback is welcome and given consideration consistent with the idea that feedback is welcome, recent experience has suggested to me otherwise.

    I don't know what you think you'd be infracted for in that paragraph, but questioning the rules we have is one of the primary purposes of Feedback. The only thing that I recall infracting people for in Feedback is personal attacks on other members, general rudeness, or similar bad behavior.
    Slang

    I view the feedback forum as valuable for technical questions, and, rather than me giving feedback, providing an excellent opportunity for management and others to provide me with feedback, which they have not hesitated to do recently. Thus, despite viewing it in the opposite way than I first did, it remains appropriately named and far from useless.

    Like others here, I am very appreciative of the trouble taken.
    Last edited by Canis Lupus; 2017-Mar-18 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    This post says that the feedback forum isn't the right place for humor about posters names and such, but the OP was initially about a moderator action, even if no criticism was present.

    How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
    Looks to me like the feedback was for using a poster's board name to elicit a response, nothing more. If that is true, then you may still have a point of order question about appropriate humor, but it becomes a different one.

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    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.

    Since it has been quite a long time since I Iast said it, I'll repeat my
    comment that out of all the general science/astronomy discussion
    fora I have extensively participated in over the last 30+ years, including
    the Minnesota Space Frontier Society BBS, FidoNet Astronomy, Space
    Exploration and UFO echos, GEnie SpacePort Roundtable, and USENET
    sci.astro and sci.physics newsgroups, CosmoQuest is the only one I
    have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for
    general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration. I still hope that someday I will be able
    to begin recommending CosmoQuest to others, but that time is not
    yet in sight.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
    Because the moderators decided "we see no reason for infraction or warning."

    I don't either, especially since it's not criticizing or questioning a moderator action in-thread.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.
    That's how it was meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    Since it has been quite a long time since I Iast said it, I'll repeat my
    comment that out of all the general science/astronomy discussion
    fora I have extensively participated in over the last 30+ years, including
    the Minnesota Space Frontier Society BBS, FidoNet Astronomy, Space
    Exploration and UFO echos, GEnie SpacePort Roundtable, and USENET
    sci.astro and sci.physics newsgroups, CosmoQuest is the only one I
    have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for
    general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration. I still hope that someday I will be able
    to begin recommending CosmoQuest to others, but that time is not
    yet in sight.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

    .
    I have a similar sentiment. Even a "what if" in a non ATM thread is grounds for punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.
    Problem is, it doesn't really fit, as Grant mentioned. Copernicus's ideas were not especially supressed at the time. This link looks like a good description of "Sixteenth Century Reactions to On the Revolutions." Its first couple paragraphs:

    Copernicus's fame and book made its way across Europe over the next fifty years, and a second edition was brought out in 1566. As Gingerich's census of the extant copies showed, the book was read and commented on by astronomers. Gingerich (2004, 55) noted “the majority of sixteenth-century astronomers thought eliminating the equant was Copernicus' big achievement.”

    While Martin Luther may have made negative comments about Copernicus because the idea of the heliocentric universe seemed to contradict the Bible, Philip Melanchthon (1497–1560), who presided over the curriculum at the University of Wittenberg, eventually accepted the importance of teaching Copernicus's ideas, perhaps because Osiander's preface made the work more palatable.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    ....because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration....
    Perhaps that is your perception, but that doesn't mean others see it what way, as you imply.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Perhaps that is your perception, but that doesn't mean others see it what way, as you imply.
    That's exactly right and well pointed out. Inherent in the equation alluded to, that difference must be included, otherwise there would be no need for the equation i.e. the line of reasoning which Jeff embarked upon.

    I don't think it can be inferred that Jeff, therefore, was implying that everyone sees it as he does. In fact, he is implying the opposite, with the greatest respect to your good self and others.
    Last edited by Canis Lupus; 2017-Mar-19 at 12:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.
    That's how it was meant.
    So you intended that analogy to be taken seriously?
    You were drawing a serious parallel between the moderators of an internet forum and the Inquisition?

    I didn't expect that.

    Grant Hutchison

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    So you intended that analogy to be taken seriously?
    You were drawing a serious parallel between the moderators of an internet forum and the Inquisition?

    I didn't expect that.

    Grant Hutchison

    There are broad parallels, so broad in fact that when you consider the details they become absurd. That's where I thought the humour came in.

    That's the way humour works often - think about it too much and the absurdity becomes obvious, whereas in the flow of things it just appears funny until you spot the absurdity.

    Stand up comedians generally never want an audience that thinks too much, unless the humour is to spot the absurdity. In which case, thinking caps have to be on to follow the logic until its end: "it's funny because it's true".

    Personally, I did not find the post funny, but that may have been because I had a bad back at the time of first reading it. It's hard to know or even reach a workable approximation.
    Last edited by Canis Lupus; 2017-Mar-18 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canis Lupus View Post
    I don't think it can be inferred that Jeff, therefore, was implying that everyone sees it as he does. In fact, he is implying the opposite, with the greatest respect to your good self and others.
    Based on the plain language of what he said, I certainly disagree. Here's the relevant satement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    ....CosmoQuest is the only one I
    have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for
    general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration.
    This is a flat statement about "the moderation attitude here," not about what he thinks about it. If he'd said "...because I think...," that'd be fine, but as with my sig, he seemed to be pronouncing a fact, not an opinion. Maybe I'm just a little more sensitive to such things in these political times....
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    So you intended that analogy to be taken seriously?
    You were drawing a serious parallel between the moderators of an internet forum and the Inquisition?

    I didn't expect that.

    Grant Hutchison
    My travel blog Mostly about riding a motorcycle across the US and Europe. Also has cool things that happen in between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Based on the plain language of what he said, I certainly disagree. Here's the relevant satement:



    This is a flat statement about "the moderation attitude here," not about what he thinks about it. If he'd said "...because I think...," that'd be fine, but as with my sig, he seemed to be pronouncing a fact, not an opinion. Maybe I'm just a little more sensitive to such things in these political times....
    Am I allowed to say "I have a similar sentiment?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.

    Since it has been quite a long time since I Iast said it, I'll repeat my
    comment that out of all the general science/astronomy discussion
    fora I have extensively participated in over the last 30+ years, including
    the Minnesota Space Frontier Society BBS, FidoNet Astronomy, Space
    Exploration and UFO echos, GEnie SpacePort Roundtable, and USENET
    sci.astro and sci.physics newsgroups, CosmoQuest is the only one I
    have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for
    general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration. I still hope that someday I will be able
    to begin recommending CosmoQuest to others, but that time is not
    yet in sight.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

    .
    Hmm, I disagree. In the 30+ days I've been active on this forum, I've recommended it to at least a half dozen scientists and engineers where I work. Reason being is that there is a vigorous challenge of ideas, and the moderation team keeps it civil during those discussions. That is a great environment for an online forum. If you have ever published in a peer-reviewed journal, you know that proposed extension or novel application of existing theory carries a heavy burden for the author, usually the PI. I'm used to the challenge, so I'm pretty careful of where to stake a claim. It appears to me that others need or want some handholding through the process of trying to flat out overturn foundational theories. Maybe that's a good place for some Q&A so one can get a bit better educated before making unsupported assertions. Or they can visit one of your other sites and not worry about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
    In case of doubt: PM a mod and ask where to post your intended message. He may answer immediately, or put it to the group for a discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    CosmoQuest is the only one I have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important than scientific exploration.
    On other hand, it is the only forum I would recommend to people because of the level of expertise available. And because the moderators will not tolerate people posting their own ideas as if they were science (which, of course, you know very well as you have a long history of doing that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    Even a "what if" in a non ATM thread is grounds for punishment.
    I would need to see some evidence of that. (I have seen plenty of evidence that contradicts it, though.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    I took the essential point of crosscountry's original post in the
    Subtle Irony thread to be the observation that Copernicus's ideas
    were being supressed by the powers that be, in a rough historical
    parallel which was notable because of the poster's choice of name.
    I have always assumed the name was chosen because they knew they would be posting controversial ideas. So there is no irony at all, just a self-fulfilling prophecy. And a certain hubris, perhaps.

    ETA: I realise, now, that we are in danger of reviving (or have revived) the discussion that caused the other thread to be closed. So ... Good night.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Based on the plain language of what he said, I certainly disagree. Here's the relevant satement:



    This is a flat statement about "the moderation attitude here," not about what he thinks about it. If he'd said "...because I think...," that'd be fine, but as with my sig, he seemed to be pronouncing a fact, not an opinion. Maybe I'm just a little more sensitive to such things in these political times....
    I think the issue has shifted slightly, but I take your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    And because the moderators will not tolerate people posting their own ideas as if they were science (which, of course, you know very well as you have a long history of doing that).
    Calling members out on rule-breaking behavior Is also against the rules. Report it when you see it, then leave it be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    ... How can one post about moderator action outside of the feedback section without being penalized?
    We discourage posting direct comments on Moderator actions in-thread as this tends to derail the thread. Feedback is the place for such comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canis Lupus View Post
    Once the "coloured ink" is used (excluding black as a colour and white as pointless) one must treat it as thunder in the sky - there being no use trying to conduct a dialogue with thunder unless you want to be hit by lightening.

    The feedback forum does appear to be a grey area in the case of "coloured ink", where the rule is more flexible. Maybe there can be some clarification of that by someone in authority or in the know. ...
    "Lightning."

    As stated above, Feedback is where you can criticize Mod actions as long as you follow the Rules while doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    ... because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration. ...
    I think you are confused. We welcome scientific discussion here, including speculation ("what if"). What we discourage is advocacy of non-mainstream ideas outside the ATM forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    ... I have a similar sentiment. Even a "what if" in a non ATM thread is grounds for punishment.
    Can you give an example?
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    We discourage posting direct comments on Moderator actions in-thread as this tends to derail the thread. Feedback is the place for such comments.

    "Lightning."

    As stated above, Feedback is where you can criticize Mod actions as long as you follow the Rules while doing so.
    Thanks for the clarification and correction. Worth quoting to make sure I don't repeat the error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post


    Can you give an example?

    How about rule 13:

    "Keep promotion of your ATM/CT theories and ideas to only those Against the Mainstream or Conspiracy Theory threads which discuss them. You may not hijack other discussions or otherwise draw attention to your ideas anywhere else on the BAUT forums."

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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscountry View Post
    How about rule 13:

    "Keep promotion of your ATM/CT theories and ideas to only those Against the Mainstream or Conspiracy Theory threads which discuss them. You may not hijack other discussions or otherwise draw attention to your ideas anywhere else on the BAUT forums."

    https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...-This-Board-**
    You apparently don't read carefully. Rule 13 talks about promotion of ATM ideas outside of the ATM forum. It says nothing about "What if" questions.

    I am not aware of any examples of such questions producing punishment (only when mainstream answers to the questions are ignored, in favor of the ATM notion). I would be interested in an example that backs up your claims.

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    I think the last bunch of philippe8's posts in Q&A clearly shows that the "what if" kind of posts can be source for interesting discussions.
    And yes, at one point I thought it went to far and called him out on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
    I think the last bunch of philippe8's posts in Q&A clearly shows that the "what if" kind of posts can be source for interesting discussions.
    And yes, at one point I thought it went to far and called him out on it.
    And, for fans of the "Moderators brutally intervene in over-the-top ways to terrorise the cowering masses" narrative it is worth noting - you simply said "Okay, that is enough now, you either accept the mainstream explanation for the 'Einstein constant' or you take it to ATM."

    No infractions. Plenty of lee-way for self moderation allowed. Intervention only when it was necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    ... CosmoQuest is the only one I
    have never recommended to anyone else as a good place to go for
    general discussion, because of the moderation attitude here which
    promotes fear of being against the mainstream as more important
    than scientific exploration.
    I'm going to be exceedingly blunt here (note black ink).

    I strongly disagree with your wording ("fear of being against the mainstream" ), but I get your general point, to which I respond "Good!".

    I think CQ has been slowly going downhill for a long time, and not in the way you and several others probably think. I think it has become entirely too friendly to non-mainstream nonsense. For the most part I see a lot of threads in S&T and Q&A about crackpot ideas, silly nonsense, and questions best left to typing in Google. I'm not against any of that (bolded because I'm sure it will be missed), but they now completely dominate CQ.

    I'm not interested in the vast majority of them. I would like to hear about real scientific and technological research and advancement, and hear questions from people who are interested in learning about science, and not in promoting their ideas based mostly on a misunderstanding of the real science. But there is extremely little of that here, and I am frankly pretty bored with this place. I have even searched around for a better alternative, but with little luck.

    And often when I've tried to promote discussion of real science by example, it is either ignored or becomes a source of humor.

    I know forums, like many things, change over time. Frankly, I don't expect CQ to change to suit my wants, and I expect you will get exactly what you want Jeff, but without me.
    Last edited by Swift; 2017-Mar-19 at 02:02 PM. Reason: typo
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