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Thread: Do "spoilers" really spoil things for you?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Doesn't everyone draw the line between "useful information" and "spoiler" at a different point?
    That's a fair point, but it does almost seem like you don't draw that line anywhere. Is there an example of what you would consider to be a "spoiler"?
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    We did in my public library when I was a kid - non-fiction was classified into quite minute subsections, and on the other side of the hall was "fiction". (Oh, tell a lie - there was a shelf near the counter marked "newly acquired fiction".)

    Grant Hutchison

    There's a used-paperback store near here which I checked out. Once.

    I was amazed to find that the stock was pretty much wall-to-wall "gothic romance" books. However, they were classified as to recency, series, author, and maybe general topic. When the old gal who ran the place asked me what I was looking for, I inquired as to whether they had any non-fiction.

    She directed me to the closest thing she had, namely "True Crime."


    Rather the opposite situation!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    That's a fair point, but it does almost seem like you don't draw that line anywhere. Is there an example of what you would consider to be a "spoiler"?
    Well, I started the thread by saying that spoilers don't bother me, so it's correspondingly difficult for me to give an example of something that would be a spoiler for me, never having actually encountered one. Reading a significant chunk of the screenplay before seeing a movie, maybe.
    (But ... now I've written that, I'm actually quite attracted by the idea, so we can score that one off, too.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    The local city-county library here separates fiction by genre ... mystery, western, science fiction, historical, etc. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen a US library that didn't separate fiction somehow or other.
    I'm sure it's a thing, nowadays - but none of the several public libraries I used in my youth did it. In retrospect, I'm grateful for that - it would have been all too easy for my young-teenage self to simply set up camp in the science fiction section. As it was, I had to wander the shelves, and my reading experience was broader because of that.

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    I find that I'm in grant's camp with this one. For a well-written (and well-acted, if applicable) story, I don't feel that my enjoyment is particularly reduced by knowing some (or even all) of the details of the plot ahead of time. (For a poorly written story, I'm not likely to be all that entertained regardless of what clever twist the author tries to throw at me...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocrazy View Post
    In the Star Wars saga the audience were given hints throughout right up until the reveal that Vader was Luke's father.
    Even though Lucas didn't know yet when writing the first one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Even though Lucas didn't know yet when writing the first one?
    He has subsequently claimed he did know, and there are of course a couple of things in Episode IV that have been interpreted/adopted as hints in that direction, while there are things in early script drafts that are clearly inconsistent with Vader being Luke's father.
    So is Lucas a fabulist, retconning his own life? Or did it all firm up at some time during the filming of the first movie? Or was there a protracted mental flip-flop in which Lucas had multiple ideas about where the plot would go?

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    I think the evidence is clear that Lucas tells the story about his life that is most convenient for him at the time.
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    "You can't erase icing."

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    Dunno about Lucas, but Mark Hamill didn't know until right at the last minute, and others not until much later. The reason I used that example yesterday was a fail blog delivered clip (I saw yesterday) of Mark Hamill being interviewed on the Graheme Norton show.

    https://youtu.be/OsSKFlk8oEo

    (I'm at work and can't verify the accuracy of that URL. Sorry if it's wrong. I'll re-check when home tonight.)

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    There were scenes filmed for the original movie in which another rebel officer, at the base on Yavin IV, speaks to Luke about his father. They added the scene back in for the Special Edition, but had to put an awkward edit in it to remove the references to Daddy Skywalker, so Lucas' conceptualization regarding Luke's father has, at the very least, "evolved".
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  11. #71
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    I feel this requires a mention for Sfdebris, who has been making a wonderful series on the Lucas's journey in making Star Wars. Only today, another part went up.

    http://sfdebris.com/index.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I find that I'm in grant's camp with this one. For a well-written (and well-acted, if applicable) story, I don't feel that my enjoyment is particularly reduced by knowing some (or even all) of the details of the plot ahead of time. (For a poorly written story, I'm not likely to be all that entertained regardless of what clever twist the author tries to throw at me...)
    My impression is that there are actually a lot of us about, but we seem to be essentially invisible to the "No spoilers!" mainstream.

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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    My impression is that there are actually a lot of us about, but we seem to be essentially invisible to the "No spoilers!" mainstream.

    Grant Hutchison
    If we get a spoiler,
    that can't be un-done,
    you don't get a spoiler,
    no harm done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    If we get a spoiler,
    that can't be un-done,
    you don't get a spoiler,
    no harm done.
    Except in the sense that we constantly have to defer to your sensibilities, and experience invisibility as our reward.

    Ooooh. I can feel a civil liberties march coming on:
    "What do we want?"
    "Complete plot summaries!"
    "When do we want them?"
    "Before release!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    There were scenes filmed for the original movie in which another rebel officer, at the base on Yavin IV, speaks to Luke about his father. They added the scene back in for the Special Edition, but had to put an awkward edit in it to remove the references to Daddy Skywalker, so Lucas' conceptualization regarding Luke's father has, at the very least, "evolved".
    Many parts & characters of the story evolved constantly throughout, Lucas admits this especially so when other writers were involved. He had a hard time getting someone to fund the film and get it on the big screen so had to make quite a lot of changes and compromises to his original ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I find that I'm in grant's camp with this one. For a well-written (and well-acted, if applicable) story, I don't feel that my enjoyment is particularly reduced by knowing some (or even all) of the details of the plot ahead of time. (For a poorly written story, I'm not likely to be all that entertained regardless of what clever twist the author tries to throw at me...)
    I think, as Grant has mentioned that there are quite a few people who feel this way. Quite possibly in the minority, but not as uncommon as people might think. Also someone mentioned earlier in the thread about how sometimes you re-watch a movie only to find you completely missed some really good moments. By this I mean, when something clicks in your mind/emotions that was... well maybe subtle the first time around, but you realised the importance of the moment on the second viewing. A well written well told story will often leave you pondering it long after you watched/read it and stir your emotions when you may not expect it.

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    "Spoil" as in completely destroy my desire to experience the story? No, not usually. But diminish the experience? Yes.

    Today I got treated to a whopper of a movie spoiler on NPR, right when I turned the car engine on. I was not amused.
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    We just watched a film where I'm glad that I did not know how it ended. "Life"

    Plot : Astronauts (Jake Gyllenhaal, Rebecca Ferguson, Ryan Reynolds) aboard the International Space Station are on the cutting edge of one of the most important discoveries in human history: the first evidence of extraterrestrial life on Mars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    We just watched a film where I'm glad that I did not know how it ended. "Life"

    Plot : Astronauts (Jake Gyllenhaal, Rebecca Ferguson, Ryan Reynolds) aboard the International Space Station are on the cutting edge of one of the most important discoveries in human history: the first evidence of extraterrestrial life on Mars.
    If I'd known the ending, it would have put me off going to see the film, certainly. But only because the nature of the ending would have told me what to expect from the rest of the flim, which I didn't find interesting or entertaining.

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    I'm glad that we waited for "Life" to come on tv.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    We just watched a film where I'm glad that I did not know how it ended. "Life"

    Plot : Astronauts (Jake Gyllenhaal, Rebecca Ferguson, Ryan Reynolds) aboard the International Space Station are on the cutting edge of one of the most important discoveries in human history: the first evidence of extraterrestrial life on Mars.
    Again I'd side with Grant on this one. The ending was unsurprising and rather predictable.

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    I tend to get more offended when one person spoils a movie for another. If the entire value of the movie is in the plot twist or big reveal, then I am probably not going to like it anyway. If it is a series, I would rather know my favorite character survives. Most of the time I will ask around to try and find out. If there is some clues available, I will spoil it myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    I've never been bothered one way or another about spoilers. Sometimes they actually seem to improve my enjoyment. And, of course, we all have favourite books and movies that we go back to again and again, without feeling that the first reading has spoiled subsequent enjoyment. (Maybe changed the nature of the enjoyment, but not removed it.)
    I was reminded of this when I ran into what might be considered a serious spoiler for Season 1 of Westworld, which I'm about halfway through watching and finding pretty tedious going so far. The spoiler actually perked me up and made me feel I might watch a bit more of a programme I was otherwise losing interest in.

    Grant Hutchison
    If it's good, the spoilers won't matter.

    If it's crap, the spoilers won't matter.

    If mediocre, they might.

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    Oh nonsense Swampy.

    Okay, so last week the movie The Book Of Eli came on television and as a couple of years have passed since the last time I'd seen it I'd thought I'd watch it again.

    Just before it started the announcer voice came on and said,

    "Stay tuned as a blind wanderer travels the wastelands with a braille bible in...The Book Of Eli"

    If I had not seen it already, or had been wanting to watch it with a friend who hadn't, that would have been very disappointing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Just before it started the announcer voice came on and said,

    "Stay tuned as a blind wanderer travels the wastelands with a braille bible in...The Book Of Eli"

    If I had not seen it already, or had been wanting to watch it with a friend who hadn't, that would have been very disappointing.
    It was very disappointing, anyway. A braille bible runs to eighteen to twenty stonking great volumes. Guy would have needed a wheelbarrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    ... Okay, so last week the movie The Book Of Eli ... "Stay tuned as a blind wanderer travels the wastelands with a braille bible in...The Book Of Eli" ...
    They spoiled the twist and they got it wrong; he wasn't blind (which was part of the twist ... a sighted guy with a Braille Bible, twisty. A blind guy with one? Yeah, so?)

    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    It was very disappointing, anyway. A braille bible runs to eighteen to twenty stonking great volumes. Guy would have needed a wheelbarrow.

    Grant Hutchison
    Cliff Notes version? Shorthand Braille? Extra thin paper or very small print? Plot device?
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    Haven't seen that movie yet, so as soon as I read the name I had to quickly scan past. Hopefully didn't retain information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Oh nonsense Swampy.

    Okay, so last week the movie The Book Of Eli came on television and as a couple of years have passed since the last time I'd seen it I'd thought I'd watch it again.

    Just before it started the announcer voice came on and said,

    "Stay tuned as a blind wanderer travels the wastelands with a braille bible in...The Book Of Eli"

    If I had not seen it already, or had been wanting to watch it with a friend who hadn't, that would have been very disappointing.
    I will watch Macbeth, Casablanca, or read Moby Dick many times; the pleasures of these makes the journey more important than the destination. Telling me how the clue movie ends wouldn’t ruin the pleasure, as there was none. It’s the vast middle where it matters. Macbeth dies, Rick finds his moral compass, the whale defeats Ahab, and it’s not spoiled to those thousnds people who return again and again. Spoilers are only a problem for movies, books, and plays not worth rewatching or rereading. .

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  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    I will watch Macbeth, Casablanca, or read Moby Dick many times ... Spoilers are only a problem for movies, books, and plays not worth rewatching or rereading. .
    Boy, do I disagree!

    Part of the joy of experiencing a good story the first time is not knowing how it ends. You live it real time, as intended. (If that wasn't the intent, then Moby Dick would have a Foreword, "Ahab dies, the whale lives, enjoy the story.") This can make even a mediocre story one worth experiencing.

    Once you know the ending, if the story is good / well-presented, you can enjoy it again and again. In fact, you may chose a particular retelling not for the story but for the presentation. (Did you ever see that remake of Casablanca? Yeah, once was more than enough.)

    I think it comes down to this: If spoilers don't bother you, fine. But don't spoil the story for others for whom they do make a difference.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I think it comes down to this: If spoilers don't bother you, fine. But don't spoil the story for others for whom they do make a difference.
    Paradoxically, I think you're less likely to get a spoiler from someone who doesn't care about spoilers than you are from someone who does.
    I have a friend who cares as little about spoilers as I do, and we'd often chat at lunchtime about movies we'd both seen. We never had a spoiler complaint from our dining companions - more commonly, they'd protest that we'd talked for twenty minutes and they still didn't know what the movie was about. Because we talk mainly about acting and dialogue and cinematography and music and editing.
    Whereas (some) people who care about spoilers have a tendency to blurt out exciting plot elements, because that's the most important bit for them. (We got an example earlier in this thread.) The best I've witness was two colleagues waiting for the coffee pot to boil one morning.
    Colleague 1: "So, have you seen The Sixth Sense?
    Colleague 2: "Yes! Briliiant! What an ending! [Spoiler]! I didn't see that coming at all! Did you?"
    Colleague 1: "No. I haven't seen it. Maybe won't bother now."

    If he'd asked me, I would have talked in general terms about the aspects of the film I cared about, which was the simultaneous prefiguring and concealment of That Ending, and the performance of Haley Joel Osment. It frankly never would have occurred to me to talk about the ending itself.

    Grant Hutchison
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