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Thread: Project Blue Book 2.0?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    What would be an alternative explanation for the Kelly Cahill case?
    Having had a quick look (I gave up following these cases about 50 years ago as they all went the same way) this appears to be yet another uncorroborated story by a single individual. There are claims of an unpublished report by an apparently non-existent organisation that includes corroboration by unnamed witnesses who no one else has spoken to. I guess you could consider that to be evidence of a powerful cover-up and hence confirmatory but I don't find that very compelling. The most obvious possibility that comes to mind is simply that she imagined the whole thing. We know people are able to do this. We don't know there are cartoon-style aliens. As always, balance of probabilities...

  2. #122
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    Thr Phoenix lights case was intriguing and not really satisfactorily explained.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Having had a quick look (I gave up following these cases about 50 years ago as they all went the same way) this appears to be yet another uncorroborated story by a single individual. There are claims of an unpublished report by an apparently non-existent organisation that includes corroboration by unnamed witnesses who no one else has spoken to. I guess you could consider that to be evidence of a powerful cover-up and hence confirmatory but I don't find that very compelling. The most obvious possibility that comes to mind is simply that she imagined the whole thing. We know people are able to do this. We don't know there are cartoon-style aliens. As always, balance of probabilities...
    You need to take a longer look, a quick look has done you no good at all. There we're trace marks left. There were multiple witnesses who all described the same craft and the same beings. The women involved had identical marks on their bodies. Have you any idea how infuriating it is trying to discuss this subject with people who 'gave up looking 50 years ago'?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    You need to take a longer look, a quick look has done you no good at all. There we're trace marks left. There were multiple witnesses who all described the same craft and the same beings. The women involved had identical marks on their bodies. Have you any idea how infuriating it is trying to discuss this subject with people who 'gave up looking 50 years ago'?
    So you've actually seen the fabled PRA report?

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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    So you've actually seen the fabled PRA report?

    Grant Hutchison
    No. I've read the main witness testimony and the trace marks were corroborated by Bill Chalker.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Thr Phoenix lights case was intriguing and not really satisfactorily explained.
    Agreed

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    No. I've read the main witness testimony and the trace marks were corroborated by Bill Chalker.
    Are you sure? I found this article by Bill Chalker (March, 2016).

    The following excerpts are noteworthy:

    What seemed to be a very promising and impressive investigation and report seemed to disappear into “the PRA bunker” with only very limited data emerging...

    A promising case, indeed a very striking case, was adrift and largely only standing on the testimony of one very determined witness – Kelly Cahill – and any supportive data and information that could be gleaned. These were largely anecdotal and only supported with some limited PRA physical data that lacked detailed context and documentation. ...

    I found Kelly's account extraordinarily potent and compelling when I first heard it 2 months after it happened. I still find her story compelling. I’m less sure of the stories attributed to the other 2 car occupants and I am uncertain about the physical data reported by PRA simply because there was no way to confirm further details without PRA’s cooperation. ...

    As a physical scientist I would have loved to have examined the full data and reviewed it with the analysts involved. That was not possible as PRA did not allow those sorts of opportunities for peer review.
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    No. I've read the main witness testimony and the trace marks were corroborated by Bill Chalker.
    Bill Chalker never saw the supposed trace marks - he didn't live in Victoria, and by his own report he passed Cahill on to the (Victoria-based) PRA, trusting them to follow up on the story. He was then told a marvellous narrative about PRA's investigations, which he relayed in his own writings as if all the purported detailed information was already available. He was subsequently wrong-footed by the non-appearance of all this evidence. In the wake of renewed interest after the story featured in the X-Files reboot, Chalker provided a frank and frustrated update which was essentially to say that nothing had happened for twenty years.

    ETA: I see George's google-fu is faster than my bookmark-fu. I really need to give some of these bookmarks descriptive names.

    Grant Hutchison
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    So where are the silver saucer shaped craft that were reported in the 40s and50s? Surely they should be in common use by now if they were 'next-gen projects'?
    Maybe they were not actually one of the following items: silver, saucer shaped, craft. For that matter, if they were alien, same question: where are they?

  10. #130
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    Project Blue Book 2.0?

    Maybe they simply didnít work out so well: Avrocar


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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Maybe they were not actually one of the following items: silver, saucer shaped, craft. For that matter, if they were alien, same question: where are they?
    Still being reported. But I suppose if you haven't seen one, then they mustn't exist.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Are you sure? I found this article by Bill Chalker (March, 2016).

    The following excerpts are noteworthy:

    What seemed to be a very promising and impressive investigation and report seemed to disappear into “the PRA bunker” with only very limited data emerging...

    A promising case, indeed a very striking case, was adrift and largely only standing on the testimony of one very determined witness – Kelly Cahill – and any supportive data and information that could be gleaned. These were largely anecdotal and only supported with some limited PRA physical data that lacked detailed context and documentation. ...

    I found Kelly's account extraordinarily potent and compelling when I first heard it 2 months after it happened. I still find her story compelling. I’m less sure of the stories attributed to the other 2 car occupants and I am uncertain about the physical data reported by PRA simply because there was no way to confirm further details without PRA’s cooperation. ...

    As a physical scientist I would have loved to have examined the full data and reviewed it with the analysts involved. That was not possible as PRA did not allow those sorts of opportunities for peer review.
    She obviously made it all up then. Sorry for wasting your time.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    She obviously made it all up then. Sorry for wasting your time.
    Don't let honest questions be too discouraging. Facts are so brutally important to UFO accounts. Chalker, as I noted, states that this is a compelling case. I know little of the facts but I posted this to see if you can add interesting tid bits as well. UFOs may become more important to me if my daughter elects to marry the son of the manager at the UFO Roswell store.
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    Still being reported. But I suppose if you haven't seen one, then they mustn't exist.
    I'd prefer if you don't make my arguments for me. But in any case, you confirmed what I was trying to point out. After 80 years of reports, we still don't have actual silver saucer shaped craft at this moment, just reports thereof. Important distinction. So the "where are they" question remains equally valid no matter what would be the origin of any unknown craft.

  15. #135
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    The 1997 Phoenix Lights?? They were debunked by 1998!! There were two separate and unrelated events. An overflight of several planes in a V formation. It was seen by an amateur astronomer in his telescope. Despite good evidence he was watching the same phenomena others saw, he was shouted down at a meeting discussing the lights since it didn't fit the jumped-to conclusion others had that it was a "UFO" of extraterrestrial origin. The other "hovering" lights were conclusively shown to be high altitude flares. I remember reading all about this and watching all manner of video interviews and recreations (including a well-done digitally overlain video of the terrain in daylight matched to the night video(s), showing the lights "disappearing" behind a mountain range. At the time I was also holding onto the belief that there were "craft" of unknown origin visiting us, and this "sighting" registered VERY low on the plausibility and very high on the explain-ability indices.

    Here's one concise article, but a Google search shows all manner of talks and links to the debunking of this non-event.
    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/...ystery-6661825


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  16. #136
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    Regarding still the Kelly Cahill encounter case, my quickened google-fu, accelerated by this weekend's hours of D2 play on xbox, no doubt, indicates there may be no picture of the "uncommonly geometric" (her words, apparently) triangle mark that was found below and just to the right (left?) of her navel. It was an equilateral triangle with 1 cm sides, approximately. According to one Amazon reviewer of her 340 page book, Encounter, there is no picture of this unusual marking found in her book.

    Is there a photo of this triangle anywhere?
    Last edited by George; 2018-Jan-02 at 10:19 PM.
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  17. #137
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    About 10 years after the Phoenix Lights event occured the former Arizona governor Fife Symington came out and said that he saw it too, but that he felt it best to try and defuse the public excitement so he pulled the rubber alien stunt/press conference to calm fears, which kinda backfired. He's sorry that he did that and today stands by the other witnesses as it being a huge solid object, he's ex-air force so being confused by airplanes seems remote. Easy to youtube his interviews on the topic if interested. The governor could have been just as delusional as the rest of them, except of course, the one guy with the telescope ;-)

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Don't let honest questions be too discouraging. Facts are so brutally important to UFO accounts. Chalker, as I noted, states that this is a compelling case.
    The Cahill case is a type specimen for one source of frustration that sceptics have with the UFO scene, however. The story echoing from one blogger to the next seems compelling, but the closer you push to primary sources, the less compelling the evidence becomes, until finally one is left with a source who claims to know much more, to be in possession of answers to all the questions ... but for various not-entirely-coherent reasons is completely unable to provide this information.

    After a while it's just difficult to be interested any more.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Note:
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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    About 10 years after the Phoenix Lights event occured the former Arizona governor Fife Symington came out and said that he saw it too, but that he felt it best to try and defuse the public excitement so he pulled the rubber alien stunt/press conference to calm fears, which kinda backfired. He's sorry that he did that and today stands by the other witnesses as it being a huge solid object, he's ex-air force so being confused by airplanes seems remote. Easy to youtube his interviews on the topic if interested. The governor could have been just as delusional as the rest of them, except of course, the one guy with the telescope ;-)
    The impression of one solid object is a known optical/vision phenomenon. It doesn't matter if he's ex-Air Force, he would not be immune to the effect. And others also saw the "V" lights and reported them moving independently - I believe some of that video documentation also exists.

    I'm sorry, he's not any more credible and anyone else, but the persistence that there had to be Something™ to the Phoenix Lights is a good poster child for the whole UFOlogy religion.

    CJSF
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    The Cahill case is a type specimen for one source of frustration that sceptics have with the UFO scene, however. The story echoing from one blogger to the next seems compelling, but the closer you push to primary sources, the less compelling the evidence becomes, until finally one is left with a source who claims to know much more, to be in possession of answers to all the questions ... but for various not-entirely-coherent reasons is completely unable to provide this information.

    After a while it's just difficult to be interested any more.
    It is interesting, however, that in this case she (Cahill) did publish a book on her encounter. Her book does not seem to help eschew obfuscation very much, or does it?

    [Added: I want to state that I don't have any reason to doubt her sincerity or integrity. But this should always go to both sides of the fence. Objective evidence is necessary for any hope to move beyond faith.]
    Last edited by George; 2018-Jan-02 at 10:40 PM.
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  21. #141
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    It's unlikely that the Blue Book notes an early '60s account of a UFO seen from northern San Antonio before midnight, as was reported by at least one prominent AM radio station, but if they did mention it, kindly disregard it.
    Last edited by George; 2018-Jan-02 at 10:41 PM.
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

  22. #142
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    I'm sorry, he's not any more credible and anyone else,.
    I pretty much agree with that, it all falls down to which witnesses accounts one weighs more heavily.

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    [...]he's ex-air force so being confused by airplanes seems remote.
    Speaking in the general case, being ex-USAF doesn't assure us that one has much aviation expertise beyond pointing and saying, "Look! An airplane!" The service comprises a great many career specialties that have no direct connection to aviation operations and a great many of those people can be assigned to bases with little-to-no aircraft activity. Further, people working in an aviation-related field may be "stovepiped" in one area, say cargo aircraft, and have no significant experience with other areas like fighter or bomber ops. I think it's also important to note that very, very few service members have formal training in ground-based observation of airborne craft.

    In the specific case of Fife Symington, it appears that he was indeed a USAF pilot, 1968-1971. However, a lot of more advanced aircraft entered the inventory in the years following his period of service: the F-15, F-16, F-117A, B-1B, and B-2, to name a few. I don't think his service prepared him to correlate the appearance of a nighttime UFO to those or any other aircraft outside of his realm of experience.
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  24. #144
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    Que?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    Science fiction is limited by physical laws? So you must think teleportation is possible then? After all, it did feature in Star Trek.
    Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you meant to say that technological progress is limited by the imagination. I agree about science fiction, but I thought we were discussing reality here.
    As above, so below

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    The Cahill case is a type specimen for one source of frustration that sceptics have with the UFO scene, however. The story echoing from one blogger to the next seems compelling, but the closer you push to primary sources, the less compelling the evidence becomes, until finally one is left with a source who claims to know much more, to be in possession of answers to all the questions ... but for various not-entirely-coherent reasons is completely unable to provide this information.

    After a while it's just difficult to be interested any more.

    Grant Hutchison
    Translation: you employed google in the last few hours and your mind is still a clam. Colour me shocked.

  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Don't let honest questions be too discouraging. Facts are so brutally important to UFO accounts. Chalker, as I noted, states that this is a compelling case. I know little of the facts but I posted this to see if you can add interesting tid bits as well. UFOs may become more important to me if my daughter elects to marry the son of the manager at the UFO Roswell store.
    Sorry, but, she's not your daughter.

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    Take that to the bank.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy987 View Post
    Translation: you employed google in the last few hours and your mind is still a clam. Colour me shocked.
    You ought to realize that you canít win arguments by throwing insults at people.

    People are pointing out to more detailed information about cases you brought up. If you are genuinely interested in the truth I would think you would be interested in reading.
    As above, so below

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    It is interesting, however, that in this case she (Cahill) did publish a book on her encounter. Her book does not seem to help eschew obfuscation very much, or does it?
    It's expensively out of print these days, but you can read it online here. The small number of illustrations are at the back.

    Grant Hutchison
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