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Thread: intelligent Rational people working in the Larger Conspiracy Media, sell outs?

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    intelligent Rational people working in the Larger Conspiracy Media, sell outs?

    Sometimes I check out the whole alt conspiracy media you get on boards and blogs. I think its fine that non-mainstream scientific discussion is allowed and debated in many places, sometimes even the National mag or Discovery channel or whatever will entertain ideas. I mean who knows maybe there is something out there, maybe we might even live inside an artificial hologram like the Matrix? Every once in a while I'm surprised to find people with a rational scientific mind argue their case on the conspiracy thing, kind of well...for while anyways. Now I'm not talking about the whole doomsday preacher mystic crackpot UFO, lizard people, Flat Earth types these woo-woo tinfoil head types. If I ever listen to these types, its to see how crazy they are or for me are only entertainment. More like 'Graham Hancock' types, some of them they trained as investigative journalists have a kind of rational mathematical mind but clearly their conclusions are wrong. This Hancock guy for example, he has developed something of a specialty in theories involving ancient civilizations, and because of gaps in history, and a lack of archaeological understanding of ancient history, human pre-history. However when you read more it reads like fictional DaVinci Code conspiracy stuff, and... "can't really figure out how they, an ancient primitive people did this great thing.... and I'm a highly intelligent Modern Man and so they back in those times were just so unintelligent way back then, so....who did it? it must have been those Ancient Alien Astronauts."

    What is driving the industry? Is it just about selling books, t-shirts, dvds? I suppose 'conspiracy' and theories from people like him sometimes fill those gaps in history for certain readers or listeners? Maybe its the public's general distrust of government, people thinking there is a cover-up with some war or the Kennedy assassination or is there a 'faith' element. I men even if we as a human were raised by nanny robots and machines are we as humans predisposed in our DNA to believe in some spirit, aliens or gods? Are people naturally predisposed to believe in the next new quasi scientific mystic hypothesis? Even sometimes the conspiracy it comes from within a group like NASA when guys like Gordon Cooper one of seven original astronauts in Project Mercury, the first manned space program of the United States starts chatting bout UFOs or aliens? What is driving this whole 'Conspiracy Media' industry, do you think they are simply selling more conspiracy books?

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    I don't know the psychological basis for it, but some people seem naturally predisposed to being interested in "secret knowledge". Before the current flavors of woo, these sorts of people were into Rosicrucianism, Kabbalah, alchemy, and magical practices.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    I am convinced that is selling junk. A few years ago, I proposed that BAUT start spinning wild UFO/Nibru tales in book form to support paying the mods. I was kidding, but realistically, who can spin a better yarn: the woo-woos or the debunker?

    The beauty of it is having the best woo on the market, we'd kill off competitors and maybe we could write a check to NASA/ESA/JPL, etc.

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    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Launch window View Post
    <snip>
    More like 'Graham Hancock' types, some of them they trained as investigative journalists have a kind of rational mathematical mind but clearly their conclusions are wrong. This Hancock guy for example, he has developed something of a specialty in theories involving ancient civilizations, and because of gaps in history, and a lack of archaeological understanding of ancient history, human pre-history. However when you read more it reads like fictional DaVinci Code conspiracy stuff, and... "can't really figure out how they, an ancient primitive people did this great thing.... and I'm a highly intelligent Modern Man and so they back in those times were just so unintelligent way back then, so....who did it? it must have been those Ancient Alien Astronauts."
    I am not familiar with Hancock, but I have a pretty intense hatred of the ancient astronaut types, especially when their arguments are along the lines of "ancient people couldn't do that". I actually think there is a fundamental racism in those arguments. You never hear them claim that the medieval cathedrals or Roman empire buildings couldn't have been built by humans, only things like the Egyptian pyramids or Mayan temples. Yet the technology for building a cathedral is not particularly different than that for building a Mesoamerican temple. Somehow Europeans could do it on their own, but those other people must have had outside help.
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    Maybe you mean the Hancock that proposes a previous lost civilisation during the last ice age. I am not aware he has any alien inputs.
    It was von Daniken that proposed aliens. Hancock sells books so there is a clear motivation also fictional stuff but mostly about lost civilisations. I think it's a mistake to lump them all together, there's a baby and bath water argument there. The supposed catastrophe ( impact) at the beginning of the younger drias is controversial, but if there was a civilisation then, it surely got washed away. The oceans rose hundreds of feet. It's not possible to rule it in or out yet.
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    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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    https://youtu.be/K9RF9lLBIMs

    This is the sun temple in India and it is only 750 years old but can tell time to the minute. The person that made the video thinks there is much more information imbeded in the structure of the building.

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    An interesting OP that generates a couple of distinct lines of thought:

    Conspiracy Psychology
    My impression, suppported - I believe - by a reasonable amount of research, none of which I recall well enough to cite, is that there is an innate human desire to understand "what is going on". In a world where much mystery and uncertainty remain some people are driven to remove some of that uncertainty by accepting various levels of woo. Others have their self image enhanced, thinking they are among those who have seen through the deception to the "truth". But perhaps the strongest motivation for belief in such matters is simply the same thing that motivates many scientists and historians: a sense of wonder. If the pyramids had been built with the aid of aliens, surely that would be truly wonderful?

    Author Rationalisation
    What motives do the authors of such works have? For some it is doubtless a living. Book royalties and a lucrative lecture circuit provide not only a comfortable lifestyle, but an opportunity to tour the world and meet interesting people. What's not to like? For others, the adulation of adoring fans may provide a satisfying ego boost. And why would a rational person not be at risk of believing the improbable? There are plenty of scientists and other well educated people who have little difficulty believing in the tenets of one or other religion. Personally, I find alien involvement in pyramid building much more likely than - for example - the Resurrection.

    Graham Hancock
    Profloater, Hancock has co-authored one or more works about the "Face on Mars" and the civilisation that purportedly existed there. I'm reasonably sure he has referenced alien evidence on Earth in one or more of his books.
    The first of his books I read, and I think his first published work, concerned the possible location of the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia. It was well written, in a readable style, structured like a detective novel. I found his argument entirely plausible, but lacking in sufficient evidence to be entirely convincing. His later books proposed less likely scenarios, based on even less evidence and much more speculation. (I was amused by a prominent member of a couple of science forums a decade ago who told how he delighted in moving any of Hancock's books he spotted in bookstores, from the science section to science fiction.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I am not familiar with Hancock, but I have a pretty intense hatred of the ancient astronaut types, especially when their arguments are along the lines of "ancient people couldn't do that". I actually think there is a fundamental racism in those arguments. You never hear them claim that the medieval cathedrals or Roman empire buildings couldn't have been built by humans, only things like the Egyptian pyramids or Mayan temples. Yet the technology for building a cathedral is not particularly different than that for building a Mesoamerican temple. Somehow Europeans could do it on their own, but those other people must have had outside help.
    One does hear fictions about aliens building Stonehenge. None of the "aliens built everything" conspirators have, insofar as I know (I don't pay much attention) said anything explicitly racist. One difference is, however, that the "aliens did that" argument always comes up when the building methods aren't well-documented, and the construction of medieval cathedral is pretty well-documented.

    Modern archeology is looking much more seriously at how ancient megastructures were built, even doing such radical things as talking to tradesmen whose jobs involves moving big hunks of stone or metal.
    Last edited by swampyankee; 2017-Dec-30 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Launch window View Post
    Every once in a while I'm surprised to find people with a rational scientific mind argue their case on the conspiracy thing, kind of well...for while anyways.
    I would rather say "people with a mind capable of rational scientific thought" than "people with a rational scientific mind". A mind that is highly accomplished, capable of very advanced, difficult scientific thought, is nonetheless still capable of publicly embarrassing its owner on a regular basis if they let it. I see people who have clearly had years of advanced study and/or experience in some difficult technical field, who are clearly intelligent, and can speak with great authority in their subject, who sound like blithering idiots the moment they step out of their areas of expertise. They don't know what they're talking about, they don't know how ridiculous they sound, and if you try to tell them, they won't listen.

    Knowing one's limitations is a wonderful thing. If one doesn't know one's limitations, one tends to sound like a fool.

    A quick look around this board turns up a good number of people who don't know when to stop talking ...

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    I can't help but notice the drumbeat of woo-woo's complaining that organizations or people are controlling information than no one else has, which remarkably seems like the situation they are creating. They control the woo because they are making it up. They gain followers who want more "information", which is duly doled out on the time line of the master woo'er's schedule. It seems like an odd sort of power play with a less than healthy level of displacement.

    Surprisingly, this is not helped by the internet. Organizations posting data on subject X merely allows woo-woos new avenues of asking weird questions like: "do the aliens have wheels?", "does the data support tapioca pudding?" or "Why kind of screws did you use in on the spacecraft?".
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I can't help but notice the drumbeat of woo-woo's complaining that organizations or people are controlling information than no one else has, which remarkably seems like the situation they are creating. They control the woo because they are making it up. They gain followers who want more "information", which is duly doled out on the time line of the master woo'er's schedule. It seems like an odd sort of power play with a less than healthy level of displacement.

    Surprisingly, this is not helped by the internet. Organizations posting data on subject X merely allows woo-woos new avenues of asking weird questions like: "do the aliens have wheels?", "does the data support tapioca pudding?" or "Why kind of screws did you use in on the spacecraft?".
    Hopefully, I'm not making a false comparison, but those behaviors sound remarkably similar to those of cult leaders.

    As for the kind of screws one uses on spacecraft? Aerospace quality ones, obviously. One does also tend to eschew cadmium plating, although silver-plated fasteners have their place, as do ones that are drilled for safety wire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Hopefully, I'm not making a false comparison, but those behaviors sound remarkably similar to those of cult leaders.
    I doubt it is that strong, but think of the cliques that occur in the workplace. Those run by Debbie Downers, nasty but not particularly adept at pulling critical people along or inept enough to get canned.

    I have had to deal with a woo-woo at work. When HR, security and the police arrived, his nominal supporters faded away very quickly. He had problem upon problem, so believing random junk was the least of his issues. He was in the middle of a brutal divorce and custody fight. He and his ex also had legal problems that required them to defend and blame each other at the same time depending on who they were dealing with. Maddening, I would think. This attracted the attention of various people who were not terribly inclined to evaluate his thoughts on the Apollo space program. They were willing to view some of his statements as threats, which they were. That ended poorly. He was busy blaming me for his computer problems with a torrent of cuss words and unknown to me, physical threats online, when he was escorted out of the building. Surprisingly, all of his computer problems vanished when he did. He had attempted to delete his entire hard drive for some reason. It was all recoverable and nothing interesting was found, so HR was actively NOT interested in muddying the water further.

    (There is a class of people that abuse equipment on leaving, usually it is nothing significant but it does result in a "no rehire status".)

    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    As for the kind of screws one uses on spacecraft? Aerospace quality ones, obviously. One does also tend to eschew cadmium plating, although silver-plated fasteners have their place, as do ones that are drilled for safety wire.
    My comment was a joke misfire. Don't think about it too much.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclogite View Post
    (I was amused by a prominent member of a couple of science forums a decade ago who told how he delighted in moving any of Hancock's books he spotted in bookstores, from the science section to science fiction.)
    I think that's our own KaiY[e]ves, bless her, unless I'm mistaken. Or at least something I can imagine her doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Hopefully, I'm not making a false comparison, but those behaviors sound remarkably similar to those of cult leaders.

    As for the kind of screws one uses on spacecraft? Aerospace quality ones, obviously. One does also tend to eschew cadmium plating, although silver-plated fasteners have their place, as do ones that are drilled for safety wire.
    Boeing was definitely NOT eschewing cad plating when I last worked there almost eight years ago.

    Back on topic, I get VERY annoyed with the the "History" Channel and the various Discovery ones. Mermaids, anyone? Right now they're promoting something about Tesla being murdered for his death ray.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclogite View Post
    ....
    Graham Hancock
    Profloater, Hancock has co-authored one or more works about the "Face on Mars" and the civilisation that purportedly existed there. I'm reasonably sure he has referenced alien evidence on Earth in one or more of his books.
    The first of his books I read, and I think his first published work, concerned the possible location of the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia. It was well written, in a readable style, structured like a detective novel. I found his argument entirely plausible, but lacking in sufficient evidence to be entirely convincing. His later books proposed less likely scenarios, based on even less evidence and much more speculation. (I was amused by a prominent member of a couple of science forums a decade ago who told how he delighted in moving any of Hancock's books he spotted in bookstores, from the science section to science fiction.)
    I am grateful, he is certainly not any kind of scientist, claims to be a journalist, and I only saw one of his books about cultural links among ancient structures and a speculated previous lost civilisation. A lot would hinge on whether or not a climate changing impact happened or not at the end of the ice age, causing the flooding reported in those several cultures. But I guess he is laughing all the way to the bank.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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