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Thread: A Finite Universe Model

  1. #1
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    A Finite Universe Model

    A Finite Universe Model

    Section 1 of 7

    It can be said that the expanding Universe in which we exist lies somewhere between the boundaries of nothing and infinity. The physical space that it occupies is unimaginably vast and recent observations indicate that its rate of expansion is increasing. The questions concerning its origin and eventual fate have generated a host of physical and metaphysical creation theories. The most widely accepted theory within the scientific community holds that our Universe burst into existence from a microscopic singularity to occupy a space of infinite dimension. The singularity, or origin point, is defined as an area of zero dimensions and infinite density that, at the instant of creation, was the source of all the energy and matter that currently comprises our entire Universe. However, we are still left with the question as to how the origin point itself was created.

    The concepts of nothing and infinity are metaphysical in nature and neither can be directly observed nor precisely defined. When asked to picture nothing, we tend to visualize the vacuum of empty space, but even if this space is completely devoid of all matter and energy, there is still the tangible reality of the space itself. At the opposite end of the size spectrum we have the concept of infinity - an entity so immense and all encompassing that it cannot be further increased in size. Try to visualize a forest so vast that adding another tree does not increase the total number of trees, or a journey so long that taking another step does not increase the distance traveled. While the concepts of nothing and infinity may be considered boundaries to our universe, they are not part of its physical reality.

    Section 2 of 7

    If the Universe was a linear three dimensional space then it would, inherently, have an origin point of zero dimensions and extend outward without bound to infinity. On the other hand, if we accept the premise that the metaphysical properties of nothing and infinity are not part of its physical reality, then a rational description of the Universe must begin with the proposition that it's physical space is not unbounded, but has tangible beginning and ending regions like the poles at the rotational axis of the Earth. As a rough analogy to our Universe, the Earth's north and south poles can be viewed as a pair of circular regions joined by the Earth's two dimensional surface, whereas, the poles that mark the boundaries of the Universe are two spherical regions joined by the Universe's three dimensional space. Just as the two dimensional surface of the earth is an integral part of an underlying three dimensional space, the three dimensional space of the Universe is an integral part of an underlying continuum of four spatial dimensions.

    The polar regions that mark the boundaries of our Universe also serve as the anchor points of the underlying continuum. While the two polar regions are currently fixed at the Origin and Terminus boundaries of our Universe, they were both free to move throughout the full extent of the underlying four dimensional continuum when it was in the unstructured amorphous state that existed before our Universe came into being.


    Section 3 of 7

    Our Universe and its underlying continuum both share the same three primary structural components of spatial dimensions, energy and time. The spatial dimensions that provide the environmental structure of space are, in essence, individual one dimensional filaments spanning the distance between the surfaces of the two polar regions and from the polar surfaces to the polar centers. The spatial dimensions are elastic in nature and kept in continuous motion by the expansive pressure of an energy field of individual three dimensional point charges that fill the environmental structures of both the polar regions and interconnecting space. The effect of any change in the strength or direction of the expansive force exerted by the individual point charges is not instantaneous but controlled by the latency property of time.

    The force field surrounding each point charge is flexible and its shape is affected by the expansive forces exerted upon it by the neighboring point charges. If the point charges are evenly distributed in a stable quiescent spatial region, they will assume a spherical shape which will result in the exerted force being equal in all directions and will cause the surrounding space to expand to a maximum volume determined by the point charge density. If the point charges are flowing from a region of high charge density to one of low density, the force fields surrounding the charges in the flow will assume a more ovoid shape, stretching in the direction of flow which will result in increased force exerted parallel to the direction of flow and decreased force exerted perpendicular to the flow. The degree of change in the shape of the point charges within the energy flow is proportional to the speed of the flow.

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    Section 4 of 7

    Due to the three dimensional nature of the point charges that make up the energy fields within each of the two polar regions and interconnecting spatial region, the interaction between the energy fields and four dimensional spaces results in the creation of a three dimensional containment structure from three of the four spatial dimensions within each region. The remaining fourth dimension remains outside and isolated from the energy field within the containment structure.

    The spherical nature of the containment structure within each polar region will cause the point charges of the energy field to form a vortex around the center point and gradually compress into a rapidly rotating sphere. The strength of the outward expansive force exerted by the surface point charges of the energy field is inversely proportional to the rotational speed of the energy flow within the polar region. The polar regionís energy field will be in one of two distinct states: 1. A fully energized state in which the point charges are densely packed into a rapidly rotating sphere; 2. A released state in which the point charges are contained in low density, slowly circulating flows. By contrast, the energy flows in the interconnecting spatial region are more like the random currents in a vast ocean, with the point charge density varying throughout the region.

    The four connection points between the internal polar dimensions and those of the interconnecting space form four potential connection windows between the polar region's energy field and the energy field of the interconnecting space.

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    Section 5 of 7

    The pressures of the energy flows and the flexing of the spatial dimensions within each region will eventually cause the isolated fourth dimension to contact the surface of containment structure which will result in the containment structure destabilizing and then reforming in a different combination of spatial dimensions. This process will occur independently within each of the three regions

    When the active containment structures of a polar region and the interconnecting spatial region align, the associated connection window will open and form a conduit that allows energy exchange between the polar region and interconnecting spatial region.

    When the conduit forms, the state of the polar regionís energy field will determine whether energy will be drawn from the interconnecting spatial region into the energy flow within the polar region, or if the energy stored in the polar region will be released into the interconnecting spatial region. Energy transfer will continue until the potential difference between the polar energy field and interconnecting spatial energy field equalizes. The energy conduit will then close, allowing the polar region and interconnecting spatial region to resume the random changes in their containment structures.

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    Section 6 of 7

    If a fully energized (Origin) pole forms a conduit at the same time a released (Terminus) pole is in the process of absorbing energy from the interconnecting space, a contiguous connection between the two poles will be formed through the interconnecting space with a transition area forming between the expanding space surrounding the Origin pole and the collapsing space surrounding the Terminus pole. The rapid expansion of the interconnecting space caused by the release of energy from the Origin pole will force the two polar regions into a violent collision that will trap the isolated fourth dimension between them.

    The force of the polar collision will generate a dense shockwave in the energy flowing outward from the Origin pole into the rapidly expanding three dimensional space connecting the two polar regions. This shockwave of energy is the birthplace of all the matter that currently exists within our Universe. Matter is a composite structure of the primary components of spatial dimensions, energy and time.

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    Section 7 of 7

    Over time, the energy potential between the poles and interconnecting space will equalize and the conduits between the polar regions and interconnecting space will close. Without the expansive pressure of the interconnecting space holding the polar regions in place, the two poles will move away from each other, releasing the trapped fourth dimension and all three regions will reform into the amorphous four dimensional continuum structure. With the loss of the expanding linear structure of the the interconnecting space surrounding the Origin pole, all forms of matter will break down into their primary components of spatial dimensions, energy and time. The random structural processes within the parent four dimensional continuum will resume until conditions are again right for the birth of a new three dimensional Universe.

    There have been universes that have come before ours and others that will follow after ours has ended. Matter is the only component that could be used to pass information between universes and, with its loss at a universe's death, the possibility of knowledge transfer is lost. With no information being passed to future universes, the metaphysical concepts of nothing and infinity, while not being part of our physical reality, exist at the boundaries of creation in the eternal lack of knowledge each new universe will have of its predecessors.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    A Finite Universe Model

    Section 1 of 7

    It can be said that the expanding Universe in which we exist lies somewhere between the boundaries of nothing and infinity. The physical space that it occupies is unimaginably vast and recent observations indicate that its rate of expansion is increasing. The questions concerning its origin and eventual fate have generated a host of physical and metaphysical creation theories. The most widely accepted theory within the scientific community holds that our Universe burst into existence from a microscopic singularity to occupy a space of infinite dimension. The singularity, or origin point, is defined as an area of zero dimensions and infinite density that, at the instant of creation, was the source of all the energy and matter that currently comprises our entire Universe. However, we are still left with the question as to how the origin point itself was created.

    The concepts of nothing and infinity are metaphysical in nature and neither can be directly observed nor precisely defined. When asked to picture nothing, we tend to visualize the vacuum of empty space, but even if this space is completely devoid of all matter and energy, there is still the tangible reality of the space itself. At the opposite end of the size spectrum we have the concept of infinity - an entity so immense and all encompassing that it cannot be further increased in size. Try to visualize a forest so vast that adding another tree does not increase the total number of trees, or a journey so long that taking another step does not increase the distance traveled. While the concepts of nothing and infinity may be considered boundaries to our universe, they are not part of its physical reality.

    Section 2 of 7

    If the Universe was a linear three dimensional space then it would, inherently, have an origin point of zero dimensions and extend outward without bound to infinity. On the other hand, if we accept the premise that the metaphysical properties of nothing and infinity are not part of its physical reality, then a rational description of the Universe must begin with the proposition that it's physical space is not unbounded, but has tangible beginning and ending regions like the poles at the rotational axis of the Earth. As a rough analogy to our Universe, the Earth's north and south poles can be viewed as a pair of circular regions joined by the Earth's two dimensional surface, whereas, the poles that mark the boundaries of the Universe are two spherical regions joined by the Universe's three dimensional space. Just as the two dimensional surface of the earth is an integral part of an underlying three dimensional space, the three dimensional space of the Universe is an integral part of an underlying continuum of four spatial dimensions.

    The polar regions that mark the boundaries of our Universe also serve as the anchor points of the underlying continuum. While the two polar regions are currently fixed at the Origin and Terminus boundaries of our Universe, they were both free to move throughout the full extent of the underlying four dimensional continuum when it was in the unstructured amorphous state that existed before our Universe came into being.


    Section 3 of 7

    Our Universe and its underlying continuum both share the same three primary structural components of spatial dimensions, energy and time. The spatial dimensions that provide the environmental structure of space are, in essence, individual one dimensional filaments spanning the distance between the surfaces of the two polar regions and from the polar surfaces to the polar centers. The spatial dimensions are elastic in nature and kept in continuous motion by the expansive pressure of an energy field of individual three dimensional point charges that fill the environmental structures of both the polar regions and interconnecting space. The effect of any change in the strength or direction of the expansive force exerted by the individual point charges is not instantaneous but controlled by the latency property of time.

    The force field surrounding each point charge is flexible and its shape is affected by the expansive forces exerted upon it by the neighboring point charges. If the point charges are evenly distributed in a stable quiescent spatial region, they will assume a spherical shape which will result in the exerted force being equal in all directions and will cause the surrounding space to expand to a maximum volume determined by the point charge density. If the point charges are flowing from a region of high charge density to one of low density, the force fields surrounding the charges in the flow will assume a more ovoid shape, stretching in the direction of flow which will result in increased force exerted parallel to the direction of flow and decreased force exerted perpendicular to the flow. The degree of change in the shape of the point charges within the energy flow is proportional to the speed of the flow.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Section 4 of 7

    Due to the three dimensional nature of the point charges that make up the energy fields within each of the two polar regions and interconnecting spatial region, the interaction between the energy fields and four dimensional spaces results in the creation of a three dimensional containment structure from three of the four spatial dimensions within each region. The remaining fourth dimension remains outside and isolated from the energy field within the containment structure.

    The spherical nature of the containment structure within each polar region will cause the point charges of the energy field to form a vortex around the center point and gradually compress into a rapidly rotating sphere. The strength of the outward expansive force exerted by the surface point charges of the energy field is inversely proportional to the rotational speed of the energy flow within the polar region. The polar regionís energy field will be in one of two distinct states: 1. A fully energized state in which the point charges are densely packed into a rapidly rotating sphere; 2. A released state in which the point charges are contained in low density, slowly circulating flows. By contrast, the energy flows in the interconnecting spatial region are more like the random currents in a vast ocean, with the point charge density varying throughout the region.

    The four connection points between the internal polar dimensions and those of the interconnecting space form four potential connection windows between the polar region's energy field and the energy field of the interconnecting space.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Section 5 of 7

    The pressures of the energy flows and the flexing of the spatial dimensions within each region will eventually cause the isolated fourth dimension to contact the surface of containment structure which will result in the containment structure destabilizing and then reforming in a different combination of spatial dimensions. This process will occur independently within each of the three regions

    When the active containment structures of a polar region and the interconnecting spatial region align, the associated connection window will open and form a conduit that allows energy exchange between the polar region and interconnecting spatial region.

    When the conduit forms, the state of the polar regionís energy field will determine whether energy will be drawn from the interconnecting spatial region into the energy flow within the polar region, or if the energy stored in the polar region will be released into the interconnecting spatial region. Energy transfer will continue until the potential difference between the polar energy field and interconnecting spatial energy field equalizes. The energy conduit will then close, allowing the polar region and interconnecting spatial region to resume the random changes in their containment structures.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Section 6 of 7

    If a fully energized (Origin) pole forms a conduit at the same time a released (Terminus) pole is in the process of absorbing energy from the interconnecting space, a contiguous connection between the two poles will be formed through the interconnecting space with a transition area forming between the expanding space surrounding the Origin pole and the collapsing space surrounding the Terminus pole. The rapid expansion of the interconnecting space caused by the release of energy from the Origin pole will force the two polar regions into a violent collision that will trap the isolated fourth dimension between them.

    The force of the polar collision will generate a dense shockwave in the energy flowing outward from the Origin pole into the rapidly expanding three dimensional space connecting the two polar regions. This shockwave of energy is the birthplace of all the matter that currently exists within our Universe. Matter is a composite structure of the primary components of spatial dimensions, energy and time.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Section 7 of 7

    Over time, the energy potential between the poles and interconnecting space will equalize and the conduits between the polar regions and interconnecting space will close. Without the expansive pressure of the interconnecting space holding the polar regions in place, the two poles will move away from each other, releasing the trapped fourth dimension and all three regions will reform into the amorphous four dimensional continuum structure. With the loss of the expanding linear structure of the the interconnecting space surrounding the Origin pole, all forms of matter will break down into their primary components of spatial dimensions, energy and time. The random structural processes within the parent four dimensional continuum will resume until conditions are again right for the birth of a new three dimensional Universe.

    There have been universes that have come before ours and others that will follow after ours has ended. Matter is the only component that could be used to pass information between universes and, with its loss at a universe's death, the possibility of knowledge transfer is lost. With no information being passed to future universes, the metaphysical concepts of nothing and infinity, while not being part of our physical reality, exist at the boundaries of creation in the eternal lack of knowledge each new universe will have of its predecessors.
    Can you summarize this in a sentence?
    The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    A Finite Universe Model
    This is not a model. A scientific model is not just a rather vague textual description. A scientific model is a precise and clear description usually with mathematics that fits what we already observe and should make new testable, falsifiable predictions.
    What you have is a "finite universe" description that does not include any finite universe!

    The OP is a lot of vague text that includes several errors.
    • Physics breaks down at the singularity at t = 0 so the scientific community does do not say that the universe started at the singularity. The universe starts in a hot dense state at a very small time greater than 0.
    • The concepts of nothing and infinity have precise definitions.
      Nothing is the concept of the absence of anything. For example take away all particles (photons, electrons, gravitons, etc.) and you get the "nothing" called a vacuum.
      Infinity is the concept of having no bounds. For example an infinite universe means that no matter how far you go in a straight line, there will always be more unexplored universe in front of you.
    • The definition of infinity includes that it can always be "further increased in size".
    • A "linear three dimensional space" does not make good sense because it implies both linear (i.e. 1 dimension) and three dimensions.
      However:
      The universe is a four dimensional space-time.
      The origin point of any coordinate system is an arbitrary point selected for that coordinate system. We can have the Earth as an origin. We can have Mars as an origin. We can have the Sun as an origin. etc.
      There is no "origin point" for the universe. Every observer in the universe measures that the universe is expanding away from them. The well known analogy is dots on the surface of an expanding balloon. No matter where you are on the surface of the balloon, the dots are moving away from you.
    • Earth's north and south poles are points on the Earth not circles.
    • Energy is not a "structural component".
      Energy is a property of a system.
    • The idea that the universe is filled with point charges.
      We would detect these point charges especially since you have them moving (moving charges emit radiation).
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2018-Feb-20 at 11:18 PM.

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    Can you produce quantitative, testable predictions that would allow us to validate your claims about:
    - your sea of point charges
    - the structure of your universe (particularly the poles)
    - containment structures
    - conduits/energy flows
    - the shockwave you believe created all matter

    I have to be honest so far I see nothing resembling science in this idea. It looks more like the sort of filler a sci-fi author would have an advanced alien race spout to justify their technology and make the book a little longer. Can you provide something structured more like a theory and in line with the scientific method?

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    Establishing Common Terms

    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    A Finite Universe Model

    Section 1 of 7

    It can be said that the expanding Universe in which we exist lies somewhere between the boundaries of nothing and infinity. (edi)
    Could you please explain your definition of nothing and of infinity. If they are different from the standard versions, please explain why your definitions are better.
    I'm not a hardnosed mainstreamer; I just like the observations, theories, predictions, and results to match.

    "Mainstream isnít a faith system. It is a verified body of work that must be taken into account if you wish to add to that body of work, or if you want to change the conclusions of that body of work." - korjik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Can you summarize this in a sentence?
    The presented model proposes the concept that our 3D Universe is contained within a bounded continuum of four spatial dimensions and describes the physical processes of the continuum that resulted in the Universe's creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    This is not a model. A scientific model is not just a rather vague textual description. A scientific model is a precise and clear description usually with mathematics that fits what we already observe and should make new testable, falsifiable predictions.
    What you have is a "finite universe" description that does not include any finite universe!

    The OP is a lot of vague text that includes several errors.
    • Physics breaks down at the singularity at t = 0 so the scientific community does do not say that the universe started at the singularity. The universe starts in a hot dense state at a very small time greater than 0.
    • The concepts of nothing and infinity have precise definitions.
      Nothing is the concept of the absence of anything. For example take away all particles (photons, electrons, gravitons, etc.) and you get the "nothing" called a vacuum.
      Infinity is the concept of having no bounds. For example an infinite universe means that no matter how far you go in a straight line, there will always be more unexplored universe in front of you.
    • The definition of infinity includes that it can always be "further increased in size".
    • A "linear three dimensional space" does not make good sense because it implies both linear (i.e. 1 dimension) and three dimensions.
      However:
      The universe is a four dimensional space-time.
      The origin point of any coordinate system is an arbitrary point selected for that coordinate system. We can have the Earth as an origin. We can have Mars as an origin. We can have the Sun as an origin. etc.
      There is no "origin point" for the universe. Every observer in the universe measures that the universe is expanding away from them. The well known analogy is dots on the surface of an expanding balloon. No matter where you are on the surface of the balloon, the dots are moving away from you.
    • Earth's north and south poles are points on the Earth not circles.
    • Energy is not a "structural component".
      Energy is a property of a system.
    • The idea that the universe is filled with point charges.
      We would detect these point charges especially since you have them moving (moving charges emit radiation).
    I want to thank you for taking the time to provide a detailed response to my submission.

    It was my purpose to present a model that doesn't conflict with current observations. I tried to stay away from using a lot of confusing jargon and keep descriptions in as plain and simple language as possible. I fear I have not been completely successful at this.

    I spent a lot of time searching for standard definitions of nothing and infinity. Depending on the specific discipline (mathematics, philosophy, physics, cosmology, ...), the precise definition and usage of these terms varied. Even the example you provided, while being almost the same as the one in my post, we came to different conclusions: is a vacuum nothing or something?

    Likening our Universe to a geometric three dimensional construct was definitely improper. Current analysis of observational data indicates the universe is isotropic with no single center point.

    In my analogy using the earth's surface I should have used the term polar regions instead of poles. It would be hard to stand on a point.

    I associated time with energy rather that distance, because time is more closely associated with changes in movement and energy is required to make changes.

    I know that the atoms in a wire will use the energy from electricity flowing through the wire to create a magnetic field, but I didn't know that just the flow of energy through empty space would do the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    It was my purpose to present a model that doesn't conflict with current observations. ...
    The problem is that you did not present a model that can match any current observations.
    Where is the model's prediction of Hubble's law? How does the model give a cosmic microwave background? Where is the finite part of your model and the observations to support it?

    You did not "stay away from using a lot of confusing jargon" - you made up your own.

    One bit of advice for anyone arguing against the mainstream is to first learn the mainstream science that they are arguing against. That is a possible source of the several errors in the first few points of your story (not a model until you relate it to this universe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    There have been universes that have come before ours and others that will follow after ours has ended. Matter is the only component that could be used to pass information between universes and, with its loss at a universe's death, the possibility of knowledge transfer is lost.
    Can you please explain [1] How a theory about 'universes that have come before ours' can be tested when that theory states no information can be transferred from said prior universes,
    and [2] Upon what this theory about 'prior universes' is based, if no observations, or information at all is accessible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    Can you produce quantitative, testable predictions that would allow us to validate your claims about:
    - your sea of point charges
    - the structure of your universe (particularly the poles)
    - containment structures
    - conduits/energy flows
    - the shockwave you believe created all matter

    I have to be honest so far I see nothing resembling science in this idea. It looks more like the sort of filler a sci-fi author would have an advanced alien race spout to justify their technology and make the book a little longer. Can you provide something structured more like a theory and in line with the scientific method?
    The model I presented is speculative in nature. I do not have the mathematical proofs to support the processes I described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Mendenhall View Post
    Could you please explain your definition of nothing and of infinity. If they are different from the standard versions, please explain why your definitions are better.
    I don’t believe my view of nothing and infinity are all that different from the standard dictionary versions or any better. For that matter. I just wanted to state up front that those two concepts would not be a physical part of the model I was going to present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    I don’t believe my view of nothing and infinity are all that different from the standard dictionary versions or any better. For that matter. I just wanted to state up front that those two concepts would not be a physical part of the model I was going to present.
    They are not part of any standard cosmological models either (although it is possible the universe is finite, that makes no difference to the models).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    The model I presented is speculative in nature. I do not have the mathematical proofs to support the processes I described.
    So what are your claims and reasoning actually based on? The problem with a bunch of poorly defined concepts linked together by non-rigorous verbal reasoning is that you can claim any outcome. It is not a predictive model, nor is it descriptive. You can't prove or test any component of it. So what is the point of presenting it at this stage? It seems no more useful or scientific than saying pixies did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    I don’t believe my view of nothing and infinity are all that different from the standard dictionary versions or any better.
    You state that your view of infinity is that it is finite ("cannot be further increased in size")!
    The concept of infinity is that it can always be increased in size. This leads to the classic Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel. A hotel with an infinite number of rooms is full. A guest arrives and the clerk frees up a room for them by asking all of the guests to move to the next room so that room 1 is free. An infinite number of guests arrive and the clerk frees up an infinite number of rooms by moving each guest to 2* their room number so that all of odd numbered rooms are free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    The model I presented is speculative in nature. I do not have the mathematical proofs to support the processes I described.
    The ATM forum is not intended for speculative discussion. If you cannot support and defend your ideas, then it would appear that you posted them prematurely. Lacking math, do you have any way at all to support your model?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    You state that your view of infinity is that it is finite ("cannot be further increased in size")!
    The concept of infinity is that it can always be increased in size. This leads to the classic Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel. A hotel with an infinite number of rooms is full. A guest arrives and the clerk frees up a room for them by asking all of the guests to move to the next room so that room 1 is free. An infinite number of guests arrive and the clerk frees up an infinite number of rooms by moving each guest to 2* their room number so that all of odd numbered rooms are free.
    My view of infinity is that is not part of our physical reality. In your example of a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms, if a new guest arrives, there is already rooms available and no one has to move. If there are an infinite number of guests, then all guests are accounted for and no new guests will arrive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    The ATM forum is not intended for speculative discussion. If you cannot support and defend your ideas, then it would appear that you posted them prematurely. Lacking math, do you have any way at all to support your model?
    I do not have the math to support the model I presented. If discussion of a speculative model is not in line with the spirit of ATM, then it would be best to close the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    I do not have the math to support the model I presented. If discussion of a speculative model is not in line with the spirit of ATM, then it would be best to close the post.
    It is not about a model being speculative, there are plenty of good ones published that are pretty speculative. It is about the discussion being speculative. You can't back up any of your claims with more than, effectively, " Because I think so". This makes your ideas (You are a long way from having a scientific model) empty in scientific terms. You can do good science from speculative models. But you are not taking a scientific approach to your ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    In your example of a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms, if a new guest arrives, there is already rooms available and no one has to move. If there are an infinite number of guests, then all guests are accounted for and no new guests will arrive.
    If there are an infinite number of rooms and an infinite number of guests in those rooms, it is still possible for any number more guests to arrive, including an infinite number of guests (in an infinite number of coaches! Even if each coach contains an infinite number of people.)

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    Thread closed as there will be no ATM proposal defended. Please be aware that you are not allowed to post on this ATM idea again without prior moderator consent.
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