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Thread: Proof Finally (UFO discussion)

  1. #31
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    "Paranormal phenomena” seems a bit biased as an expression itself regarding ufos. Why wouldn't an ET/ufo phenomenon be perfectly normal in the scheme of things? One day, if we make it to the stars and observe other civilizations, it will seem normal.

  2. #32
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    What matters is not a sighting I can't explain; what matters is a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft. So far, we haven't had evidence of one of those, because the standard for "can only be explained by an alien craft" is a lot higher.
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  3. #33
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    And "alien craft" is a very poor explanation, because it's such a Protean concept. "Alien craft" can be used to "explain" pretty much anything (probably including my weird kettle), and an explanation that can explain anything explains nothing.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    "Paranormal phenomena” seems a bit biased as an expression itself regarding ufos. Why wouldn't an ET/ufo phenomenon be perfectly normal in the scheme of things? One day, if we make it to the stars and observe other civilizations, it will seem normal.
    Many things we have today, from flashlights to jumbojets, would have seemed para-normal to our ancestors. Maybe one day, seeing a flying saucer will no more unusual than watching airliners criss crossing the sky. Until then, sightings all be relegated to the para-normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superluminal View Post
    Many things we have today, from flashlights to jumbojets, would have seemed para-normal to our ancestors. Maybe one day, seeing a flying saucer will no more unusual than watching airliners criss crossing the sky. Until then, sightings all be relegated to the para-normal.
    I think that in a sense it already has. We see flying drones from time to time--they are essentially flying saucers in appearance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    And "alien craft" is a very poor explanation, because it's such a Protean concept. "Alien craft" can be used to "explain" pretty much anything (probably including my weird kettle), and an explanation that can explain anything explains nothing.

    Grant Hutchison
    I'm interested in your weird kettle, please do expand in detail on its weird behavior. Maybe even starting a thread as Strange suggested

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    What matters is not a sighting I can't explain; what matters is a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft. So far, we haven't had evidence of one of those, because the standard for "can only be explained by an alien craft" is a lot higher.
    Indeed. This whole UFO = alien craft issue is a variant of the 'god of the gaps' fallacy, IMO. The notion that there are things that we just can't explain, be it on an individual or a global level, is so inherently unpalatable to some people they just have to fill in the gaps with something, whether that is a god or aliens. As said by Lister in a Red Dwarf Episode:

    "Oh god, aliens. Your explanation for anything slightly unusual is aliens, isn't it? You lose your keys, it's aliens. A picture falls off the wall, it's aliens. That time we used up a whole bog roll in a day, you thought that was aliens too!"

    "Well, we didn't use it all, Lister. Who did?"

    "Rimmer, aliens used our bog roll?!"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    What matters is not a sighting I can't explain; what matters is a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft. So far, we haven't had evidence of one of those, because the standard for "can only be explained by an alien craft" is a lot higher.

    I'm basically with you on this, but it's a pretty high bar. Considering the state of computer graphic technology today, is there really anything that would convince you that it must be alien? I can't really think of anything for me. Even if alien creatures come out of the craft and start talking to me, how do I know that they are really aliens and not simply a fictional creation? Honestly, I can't think of a really good test. Maybe if they tell me about their homeland, and then I go there and find they told the truth. But that's a pretty steep hurdle. What were you thinking of as what would define a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft? For example?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I'm basically with you on this, but it's a pretty high bar. Considering the state of computer graphic technology today, is there really anything that would convince you that it must be alien? I can't really think of anything for me. Even if alien creatures come out of the craft and start talking to me, how do I know that they are really aliens and not simply a fictional creation? Honestly, I can't think of a really good test. Maybe if they tell me about their homeland, and then I go there and find they told the truth. But that's a pretty steep hurdle. What were you thinking of as what would define a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft? For example?
    Diplomatic relations would be a place to start. Demonstration of technology commensurate with a civilization that could get to Earth from a distant star. Basically, they'd have to prove to me that it was real in a way that couldn't be faked using human technology.
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I'm basically with you on this, but it's a pretty high bar. Considering the state of computer graphic technology today, is there really anything that would convince you that it must be alien? I can't really think of anything for me. Even if alien creatures come out of the craft and start talking to me, how do I know that they are really aliens and not simply a fictional creation? Honestly, I can't think of a really good test. Maybe if they tell me about their homeland, and then I go there and find they told the truth. But that's a pretty steep hurdle. What were you thinking of as what would define a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft? For example?
    Maybe if they demonstrated a technology beyond Earth’s capacities, like, say, an acne cream that actually works?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    ... Considering the state of computer graphic technology today, ...
    That might apply to videos and photography; but holographic and projection technology is different.

    If I saw something myself, say, like the end of "Close Encounters" (not just the Gillianren flock of geese kind of thing), I'd be thinking it's real Aliens, not fakery.

    (Chances I think that'd ever happen: 0%)
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I'm basically with you on this, but it's a pretty high bar. Considering the state of computer graphic technology today, is there really anything that would convince you that it must be alien? I can't really think of anything for me. Even if alien creatures come out of the craft and start talking to me, how do I know that they are really aliens and not simply a fictional creation? Honestly, I can't think of a really good test. Maybe if they tell me about their homeland, and then I go there and find they told the truth. But that's a pretty steep hurdle. What were you thinking of as what would define a sighting that can only be explained as an alien craft? For example?
    If you mean there is no video only presentation you'd believe (as in something someone posts on Youtube), yes, I agree. I wouldn't trust that as proof of anything alien.

    But if CNN, BBC, CBC, etc. broadcast the live meeting of the Vulcan delegation with the representatives of the United Nations.... I think that would convince me.

    If a signal was received that was obviously artificial and obviously of extraterrestrial origin (think Contact), I'd be convinced.

    Short of that, I agree with Gillianren and others that there would have to be physical artifacts that could only be explained by non-Earth-based technologies.
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  13. #43
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    What a conundrum, no matter what the eye witnesses claim, one has to see it for them self to be convinced....which just creates another eye witness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    What a conundrum, no matter what the eye witnesses claim, one has to see it for them self to be convinced....which just creates another eye witness.
    Eyewitnesses can be and frequently are mistaken. It's a known problem in the criminal justice system, for example. That's why it's far better to have physical evidence--and that's where I would trust experts. If they saw something they couldn't explain, well, the default answer would still not be "alien spacecraft." It would be "thing they couldn't explain." No, I would never trust a mere sighting, and it's been explained why. Claiming you don't understand our objections is disingenuous.
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Oh but I do understand your objections, in fact my previous post confirmed them. Eyewitness accounts throughout the decades are for all practical purposes fairly worthless, as well as pics, landing marks, EM effects, abduction claims, etc. as I have stated many times on these ufo related threads the same thing.
    Last edited by Spacedude; 2018-May-05 at 04:58 PM.

  16. #46
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    Big piles of bad evidence is not equivalent to small quantities of good evidence.
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  17. #47
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    And let's be clear--"abduction claims" are eyewitness reports. With all the known issues thereof. Now, it's true that I am considerably more likely to assume that those are simply frauds, but many of them also fit the known effects of sleep paralysis and therefore aren't convincing evidence of anything but the fact that a lot of people don't know much about sleep paralysis.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    What a conundrum, no matter what the eye witnesses claim, one has to see it for them self to be convinced....which just creates another eye witness.
    I have described and posted about my " UFO sighting" in the past but just for fun I'll do it again. I'd be interested in other interpretations.....

    It was in the early to mid seventies and we were on a 10 day or so white water rafting trip in Idaho in a wilderness area. Northern Idaho has The largest wilderness area in the lower 48 and no motorized vehicles, homes, roads etc are allowed there. In other words way out in the sticks with no motorized vehicles or houses or anything but wilderness around for miles and miles and we were down in the canyon by the river. It was a moonless night and my cousin Tammy and I were in our sleeping bags a little ways from camp watching for satellites to pass the time....They were still kind of cool and "new' then, at least to us. After a couple went by, looking like bright stars more or less and moving slowly from our right to our left until they disappeared over the horizon, along came a third moving at the same speed and brightness as the first ones and also moving from right to left. Then it simply Stopped Moving. After a few seconds it split into three equally bright objects which seemed to "dance", "jiggle", for a second around the stationary spot "it" had stopped at to begin with and then the three objects tri-sected (as near as I could tell) the sky and all disappeared over the horizons approx. 120 degrees apart from each other in about one second. Their apparent brightness did not vary during any of these antics except for getting a bit dimmer as they sped away and out of sight
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2018-May-11 at 06:04 PM.

  19. #49
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    I’ve also posted this before, but think it is worth repeating. I have a first-hand account of how eye witnesses can be very wrong.

    I was working at a bench in a back room of my employer’s lab. Alongside the bench was a refrigerator-sized temperature chamber that was chilling some equipment unrelated to my work.

    Suddenly, I heard electrical arcing, looked behind the chamber, and saw sparks. I hit the power-kill button, and located the technician responsible for the chamber.

    He inspected the chamber, but found no fault other than a piece of paper in the fan. The chamber ran fine for years after removal of the paper.

    There was no arcing, just paper caught in the fan. Yet, I would have sworn under oath that I saw sparks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    I’ve also posted this before, but think it is worth repeating. I have a first-hand account of how eye witnesses can be very wrong.

    I was working at a bench in a back room of my employer’s lab. Alongside the bench was a refrigerator-sized temperature chamber that was chilling some equipment unrelated to my work.

    Suddenly, I heard electrical arcing, looked behind the chamber, and saw sparks. I hit the power-kill button, and located the technician responsible for the chamber.

    He inspected the chamber, but found no fault other than a piece of paper in the fan. The chamber ran fine for years after removal of the paper.

    There was no arcing, just paper caught in the fan. Yet, I would have sworn under oath that I saw sparks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    There was a moment of silence after the three objects sped over the horizon(s) tri-secting the sky... Then I said to my cousin incredulously "Did you see that ??" "Yes" she replied and we talked about it a bit just to make sure we'd both seen the same thing. So, whatever they were, my cousin and I saw pretty much the same thing.

  21. #51
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    You probably saw something, but I don’t know what it was.


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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I have described and posted about my " UFO sighting" in the past but just for fun I'll do it again. I'd be interested in other interpretations.....

    It was in the early to mid seventies and we were on a 10 day or so white water rafting trip in Idaho in a wilderness area. Northern Idaho has The largest wilderness area in the lower 48 and no motorized vehicles, homes, roads etc are allowed there. In other words way out in the sticks with no motorized vehicles or houses or anything but wilderness around for miles and miles and we were down in the canyon by the river. It was a moonless night and my cousin Tammy and I were in our sleeping bags a little ways from camp watching for satellites to pass the time....They were still kind of cool and "new' then, at least to us. After a couple went by, looking like bright stars more or less and moving slowly from our right to our left until they disappeared over the horizon, along came a third moving at the same speed and brightness as the first ones and also moving from right to left. Then it simply Stopped Moving. After a few seconds it split into three equally bright objects which seemed to "dance", "jiggle", for a second around the stationary spot "it" had stopped at to begin with and then the three objects tri-sected (as near as I could tell) the sky and all disappeared over the horizons approx. 120 degrees apart from each other in about one second. Their apparent brightness did not vary during any of these antics except for getting a bit dimmer as they sped away and out of sight
    There are all manner of potential (mis)interpretations of your sighting. Foremost for me is that your (and your cousin's) recollection and retelling of it are more-or-less the same as when it happened. This seems unlikely, given what we know of human memory. Did either of you write this down right after it happened? You likely wouldn't know you've "reinterpreted" it over the years.

    If we assume that your retelling is fairly true to what you did actually see that night, then we have another "problem". When we see things in the night sky, we are almost always perceiving three dimensions as two. For example, you can't tell that Venus and Jupiter are many millions of miles different in distance from us and each other, they look the same distance away as everything else does. Closer to home, you have to contend with what the objects you see are actually doing. Normally, if a moving object in the sky seems to "stop" or slow down, it's because it's motion is more directly toward or away from the observer. Also, a sub-orbital or other ballistic trajectory could appear to be moving across the sky at a constant altitude, but may not be doing that at all. I am not claiming that the following explanation is more or less "valid" than anything else, but I feel jumping from moving dots to intelligent extraterrestrials is a bridge too far.

    It's possible you saw an object moving through the air (or perhaps space), and its trajectory brought it to moving toward the ground "at you". It then "split" or released several other objects, perhaps with some guidance system and propulsion/maneuvering capability, which changed their trajectories to move off again. Maybe it was some sort of ballistic missile test and you saw a vehicle release some dummy warheads or other objects. If I were testing these things in the 70s, I'd pick a wilderness spot like you describe to do the test to minimize the number of potential "witnesses".

    That's just one (hopefully) plausible scenario. I don't doubt you saw something "mysterious". It's the ultimate conclusion that "bothers" me (and perhaps how often I've put things in quotes!! LOL).

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  23. #53
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    Big piles of bad evidence is not equivalent to small quantities of good evidence.
    Rather than describing evidence as "bad" I prefer "insufficient". As others have stated above anything short of hands-on evidence of an actual ET or ET tech is insufficient as convincing proof.

    And let's be clear--"abduction claims" are eyewitness reports. With all the known issues thereof. Now, it's true that I am considerably more likely to assume that those are simply frauds, but many of them also fit the known effects of sleep paralysis and therefore aren't convincing evidence of anything but the fact that a lot of people don't know much about sleep paralysis.
    Yes I agree, though the claimed abductions while wide awake (not in bed sleeping) are harder to explain as being sleep paralysis.

    Grant Hatch, thx for your experience/story. It is similar to others from the past. Personally I've never seen anything which I would describe as a ufo but I was puzzled for about 1 minute when spotting a advertising blimp at dusk floating along the horizon about 40 years ago. A weird sight at that angle but after rapidly going through my mental rolodex it came down to being a blimp.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Rather than describing evidence as "bad" I prefer "insufficient".
    No, I'd stick by swift's 'bad'.

    The word 'insufficient' implies that, if you have more of it, it will eventually become sufficient.

    There is a lot of quite bad evidence out there that, having more of it will not help the case for existence of UFOs.

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    I guess it's a matter of semantics, I see insufficient as meaning lacking new evidence, not as becoming sufficient with more of the same evidence of the past.
    As an expression, "insufficient funds to cover payment" might reflect your meaning. Where as I see it in terms of "there was insufficient evidence to convict him" Sufficient evidence for ET would be compelling new evidence as stated before, like ET or ET tech, not an accumulation of more of the same witness accounts, photos, etc.....as you can tell I've got time on my hands, too hot to be outside today....maybe I was out there too long ;-)

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    I guess it's a matter of semantics, I see insufficient as meaning lacking new evidence, not as becoming sufficient with more of the same evidence of the past.
    As an expression, "insufficient funds to cover payment" might reflect your meaning. Where as I see it in terms of "there was insufficient evidence to convict him" Sufficient evidence for ET would be compelling new evidence as stated before, like ET or ET tech, not an accumulation of more of the same witness accounts, photos, etc.....as you can tell I've got time on my hands, too hot to be outside today....maybe I was out there too long ;-)
    As long as we agree that quantity of evidence is not the key; the key is quality of evidence.

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    Yes, that is precisely my point, "quality" as in new, more substantial evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I have described and posted about my " UFO sighting" in the past but just for fun I'll do it again. I'd be interested in other interpretations.....

    It was in the early to mid seventies and we were on a 10 day or so white water rafting trip in Idaho in a wilderness area. Northern Idaho has The largest wilderness area in the lower 48 and no motorized vehicles, homes, roads etc are allowed there. In other words way out in the sticks with no motorized vehicles or houses or anything but wilderness around for miles and miles and we were down in the canyon by the river. It was a moonless night and my cousin Tammy and I were in our sleeping bags a little ways from camp watching for satellites to pass the time....They were still kind of cool and "new' then, at least to us. After a couple went by, looking like bright stars more or less and moving slowly from our right to our left until they disappeared over the horizon, along came a third moving at the same speed and brightness as the first ones and also moving from right to left. Then it simply Stopped Moving. After a few seconds it split into three equally bright objects which seemed to "dance", "jiggle", for a second around the stationary spot "it" had stopped at to begin with and then the three objects tri-sected (as near as I could tell) the sky and all disappeared over the horizons approx. 120 degrees apart from each other in about one second. Their apparent brightness did not vary during any of these antics except for getting a bit dimmer as they sped away and out of sight
    It's a fairly common set of UFO phenomena, that - stopping, splitting, dancing, shooting off. The usual explanations offered involve entoptic phenomena (that is, within the eye). For instance, it's actually anatomically and physiologically impossible to see three objects move off on divergent courses to disappear over the horizon at widely separated points in the space of a second. While these objects may have done what you recall them doing, you couldn't actually have observed it. So that has to be a phenomenon of eye and brain.

    Since you don't mention satellites appearing from, or disappearing into, Earth's shadow, I presume you were observing some time around the summer solstice, and spotting satellites in inclined orbits that took them north of Earth's shadow. A "skeptic" would therefore suggest that what you observed was actually a satellite unexpectedly disappearing into shadow (or simply rotating to a less reflective position), with the subsequent dancing and splitting all generated by eye and brain in an effort to keep track of something that had actually become invisible.

    But I'm sure you don't feel like that's what happened.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    ...physiologically impossible to see three objects move off on divergent courses to disappear over the horizon at widely separated points in the space of a second. While these objects may have done what you recall them doing, you couldn't actually have observed it. So that has to be a phenomenon of eye and brain.
    That's a very good point, in that, hopefully Grant (Grant H (Grant Hatch)) will expound upon that moment so we can better analyze.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    It's a fairly common set of UFO phenomena, that - stopping, splitting, dancing, shooting off.
    I think it's also interesting to note that in my experience, that sort of behavior (the stopping, splitting, dancing, etc.) is typical of optical phenomena, like reflections for example, but is extremely rare for actual physical objects. I remember that I would occasionally see searchlights being used, I assume for some kind of event, and those were very "UFO-ish." They can disappear when there is a hole in the clouds, for example, and then mysteriously reappear when they cross the hole and strike another cloud.
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