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Thread: Lake fish

  1. #1
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    Lake fish

    How do fish get into a lake, like say my local Lake Erie? They could hardly swim up Niagara Falls!
    SHARKS (crossed out) MONGEESE (sic) WITH FRICKIN' LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

  2. #2
    Only a few species swim up river every year like the Salmon. Most live there entire life in the lake or ocean. In the winter the go deeper an deeper, that is why some people ice fish. Plus there are many rivers that feed into the lake from the land side and not the ocean side.

    Fresh water fish probably got caught off from the oceans by things like the falls and a few could survive the fresh water and passed their genes on.
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    I've been told that birds can carry eggs from one place to another, but I haven't researched it. Draining a tank (pond) of all its water then isolating it from any creek should keep out pesky carp from taking over, but they seem to take over eventually anyway. Floods allowed upstream migration, but we improved one tank's isolation, yet the carp took-over regardless.
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

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    Tom, please don't be offended, but I'm going to laugh a little bit.

    Lake Erie is 4000 years old.

    The basin it sits in is less than 2 million years old.

    Fish predate *trees* by 200 million years.

    The fish were already there when the lake was formed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Tom, please don't be offended, but I'm going to laugh a little bit.

    Lake Erie is 4000 years old.

    The basin it sits in is less than 2 million years old.

    Fish predate *trees* by 200 million years.

    The fish were already there when the lake was formed.
    And 12,000 years ago the "lake" was a mass of ice a mile thick.
    The lake formed when it melted away. Were the fish frozen in it for 100,000 years?
    SHARKS (crossed out) MONGEESE (sic) WITH FRICKIN' LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

  6. #6
    There are rivers that flow into the lake, ever thought the fish came from these sources.
    Last edited by The Backroad Astronomer; 2018-Jun-18 at 06:04 PM.
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    Backroad, you all right?

    You've been posting a little funny lately. Last couple of days have been a little garbled. I'm starting to get concerned.

    Tom...most of my reply was based on the premise that you seldom come back to a thread after you post a question and I was mainly having you on a bit.

    Not only the eggs stuck to birds method, which is a really common and effective way, but subterranean routes through springs and caves also populate glacial lakes.

    For instance, every single genus of catfish in the United States has an eyeless, subterranean counter genus. (Genus Satan and others)

    And a lot of crustacea and copepods use both the stick to and survive the gut method of egg dispersal to new lakes.

    But mere dust can load a lake with invertebrates. I've set up small tanks just to see what novel creatures spread that way and discovered a horrific species of predatory planarian able to take down goldfish two inches long!

    In South America, specifically Argentina, they have fish who's eggs are spread by dust in the wind. Absolutely fever dream gorgeous fish too. (The South American Killifish!)

    That's from the result of thousands of years of breeding in ephemeral ponds after the pampas floods every year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec View Post
    And 12,000 years ago the "lake" was a mass of ice a mile thick.
    The lake formed when it melted away. Were the fish frozen in it for 100,000 years?
    There were extensive ice-dammed lakes against the icecap, and a river network draining into them. That drainage system contained the ancestors of today's fish, and they got into the present lake as it filled from the rivers and ancestral lakes that preceded it.

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    Birds (and other animals) do, in fact, "carry" fish into lakes - via their eggs sticking to the legs of wading birds (and other animals). But as others have said, in the bigger picture, lakes (small and large) are hardly ever "closed" systems, and have various inlets over long timespans. And even those that don't, all it takes is a good flood or two to slosh water between them. That might be a tall order for "Great" lakes, but there you have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    There were extensive ice-dammed lakes against the icecap, and a river network draining into them. That drainage system contained the ancestors of today's fish, and they got into the present lake as it filled from the rivers and ancestral lakes that preceded it.

    Grant Hutchison
    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Birds (and other animals) do, in fact, "carry" fish into lakes - via their eggs sticking to the legs of wading birds (and other animals). But as others have said, in the bigger picture, lakes (small and large) are hardly ever "closed" systems, and have various inlets over long timespans. And even those that don't, all it takes is a good flood or two to slosh water between them. That might be a tall order for "Great" lakes, but there you have it.

    CJSF
    I think it is well established that there were some massive flood events in the area that eventually formed the Great Lakes (reference - that article is from 1993, when it was apparently a new idea, but my impression is the idea is now widely accepted).

    And while the current form of the Great Lakes is only since the last glaciation, there was a lake system before them, with some of the ancestral lakes much larger than the current ones.

    All of that would seem quite capable of "storing" and reintroducing fish species into the current Great Lakes.
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    I recall that it has also rained fish and other animals in unusual weather, fish get taken up in tornado suction and then deposited miles away. They might survive this experience. One outstanding example would be Crater lake in Oregon, it has only rain and snow inputs and has fish although of course some might have been introduced by mankind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    I recall that it has also rained fish and other animals in unusual weather, fish get taken up in tornado suction and then deposited miles away. They might survive this experience. One outstanding example would be Crater lake in Oregon, it has only rain and snow inputs and has fish although of course some might have been introduced by mankind.
    Re: Crater Lake - from https://www.nps.gov/crla/faqs.htm
    Are there any fish in the lake? Where can I go fishing?
    Fish are not native to the lake. They were introduced in the lake from 1888-1941. Six species were originally stocked, but only two have survived to today: Rainbow Trout and Kokanee Salmon. Because they are not native to the lake, fishing is not only allowed, it's encouraged. No license is required and there is no limit on how many you may catch - the only rule is that you must use artificial bait. We don't want to accidentally introduce any other species into the lake. Fishing is allowed along the shoreline and on Wizard Island (with the purchase of a boat tour and Wizard Island ticket.)

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    Yeah, BigDon, we're still friends.
    I tend to check the threads for a few days and then slide off, I know what you mean.
    SHARKS (crossed out) MONGEESE (sic) WITH FRICKIN' LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

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    Excellent.

    Thank you.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    Re: Crater Lake - from https://www.nps.gov/crla/faqs.htm
    Thanks, so it’s the older generation again,
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_of_animals
    Fake lake news perhaps
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
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    Fish naturally swim upstream. So, Lake Erie is partially populated by Lake Ontario, which is populated from the St. Lawrence.

    I doubt that Niagara Falls is the only route for water exiting Lake Erie into Lake Ontario.

    I grant that the timeline re: ice ages is a bit perplexing.


    Also, lakes are artificially stocked.


    Wow!
    Lake Erie alone has as many fish as the rest of the Great Lakes put together!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Erie#Species_of_fish

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    Fish naturally swim upstream?
    Some fish. At very specific times of their lives.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Fish naturally swim upstream?
    Some fish. At very specific times of their lives.

    Grant Hutchison
    You're talking about breeding.

    Fish naturally swim upstream. Doesn't mean they always do it all the time, but that is what they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    You're talking about breeding.

    Fish naturally swim upstream. Doesn't mean they always do it all the time, but that is what they do.
    So, in other words, fish naturally SWIM.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    So, in other words, fish naturally SWIM.
    And downstream is at least as important as upstream, in terms of colonizing new lakes.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    I doubt that Niagara Falls is the only route for water exiting Lake Erie into Lake Ontario.
    It's actually extremely unusual for a lake to have multiple natural outflows, though they do exist - a couple in Finland, if memory serves. If some acute event generates a double outflow from a lake, one eventually become the dominant channel, is preferentially eroded, and the lake level falls below the entry into the secondary channel, except, perhaps, during flooding.

    That said, people build and artificially maintain secondary channels into large lakes, which can be a route in and out for fish. The Welland Canal cuts across Ontario to link Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, bypassing Niagara - I have a vivid memory of driving through a vineyard in that part of the world, and suddenly catching sight of a ship cruising past at the end of the plantation, the canal it was following completely hidden behind embankments.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Has anybody here ever have to keep a shipment of caecilians alive?

    Wow, they're annoying. After numerous tragic and ghastly occurrences I had to look into their apparently consistent suicidal behavior and found that a lot of them inhabit underwater springs, which they find by current flow and then they doggedly force their way into the spring's hydraulic system, as normal behavior. Some have really hard heads just for this job. So caecilians can colonize seemly unconnected bodies of water through subterranean routes.

    Routes that mostly DON'T have spinning, bladed impellers as their source of current. Such as those found on most aquarium powerheads.

    Astounding how many two to three foot long amphibians you can fit into a single impeller housing in a space the size of your thumb.

    And *I* always had to clear the powerheads because the youngsters couldn't. One of those jobs that requires a bucket nearby.

    From then on it was air driven under-gravel filtration only for caecilian holding tanks. Sure you might end up with a dozen of them under the gravel plate but that was still better than the old way.
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    Never go against a Caecilian when death is on the line!
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    It's actually extremely unusual for a lake to have multiple natural outflows, though they do exist - a couple in Finland, if memory serves. If some acute event generates a double outflow from a lake, one eventually become the dominant channel, is preferentially eroded, and the lake level falls below the entry into the secondary channel, except, perhaps, during flooding.

    That said, people build and artificially maintain secondary channels into large lakes, which can be a route in and out for fish. The Welland Canal cuts across Ontario to link Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, bypassing Niagara - I have a vivid memory of driving through a vineyard in that part of the world, and suddenly catching sight of a ship cruising past at the end of the plantation, the canal it was following completely hidden behind embankments.

    Grant Hutchison
    Isa Lake, in Yellowstone National Park, has two outflows. One goes to the Pacific Ocean via the Snake and Columbia Rivers; the other to the Gulf of Mexico via the Yellowstone, Missouri, and Mississippi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Not only the eggs stuck to birds method, which is a really common and effective way, but subterranean routes through springs and caves also populate glacial lakes.
    (followed by an astonishing list of ways fish eggs can propagate.)

    I sit here, mind blown. I knew that my rudimentary knowledge of biology had vast numbers of known unknowns, but... this.

    Ian Malcolm was right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    So, in other words, fish naturally SWIM.

    CJSF
    Yes, including upstream.

    They'll do this in rivers, ponds and aquaria.
    In nature, they will tend to expand their range as population and food needs drive them.
    Downstream is (presumably) more polluted and less oxygen-rich. They gravitate toward clean water.
    Downstream also tends to be populated with larger predators in the deeper water, especially since it will ultimately terminate in a lake.
    They are generally pointing upstream most of the time (including while they are inactive).
    - Water flows over their gills efficiently while they expend minimum energy.
    - Food floats by and they can feed, again, with minimal energy expenditure.


    In moving water, they instinctively point upstream, gathering around the inlets, avoiding the outlets, and if they can swim farther up, they will try.

    I don't claim to be an authority, but I've been around fish all my life, including fishing in the wild, studying them, and raising them in captivity.
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Jun-21 at 01:35 AM.

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    "Station keeping" by pointing upstream and swimming to stay in one place is certainly common, but not really relevant to the colonization of new bodies of water.

    My point was merely that fish naturally travel downstream, too - otherwise the headwaters of rivers would be choked with fish, and there would be no fish in any lake fed by a moderate-sized river.
    And given that new lakes fill from upstream, rather than downstream, the fact that fish can and do travel downstream is a relevant consideration.

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    Crater Lake and many mountain lakes have no fish.
    On the other hand, a lot of lakes in Canada do have fish. All of them were full of ice 10 000 years ago.
    So how did the fish spread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
    Crater Lake and many mountain lakes have no fish.
    On the other hand, a lot of lakes in Canada do have fish. All of them were full of ice 10 000 years ago.
    So how did the fish spread?
    As noted earlier, from upstream rivers. And "upstream" was interesting, during the glaciations. The Mackenzie River, which nowadays drains the Great Slave and Great Bear Lakes into the Arctic Ocean, has a very similar piscine fauna to the Mississippi. It seems there were ice-dammed lakes draining south during the ice age that started draining north as the ice retreated, taking the fish into the new lakes that appeared. On a geological time scale (and actually, even on a historical time scale) river systems are constantly swapping drainage channels and headwaters back and forth.

    Grant Hutchison
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