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Thread: For the Against the Mainstream

  1. #1
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    Angry For the Against the Mainstream

    [This is not a pure science post, yet not off-topic babbling. It is I suppose a conspiracy of the suppression of alternative ideas]

    "Against the Mainstream" seems to imply the fair, unbiased consideration of new ideas that are not status quo. Instead, it is suppressive, and militant in support of status quo from top to bottom. It doesn't matter to them if you use references, observations, proven laws of physics, and every process you describe has been observed and duplicated in labs. You will be punished if you don't apply a "big bang bias" to everything and accept status quo conclusions; conclusions which are contradictory, illogical, unobserved, ambiguous; impossible by laws of physics including conservation, motion, and thermodynamics.

    What was the purpose of an "Against the Mainstream" forum when no one there would ever in a million years allow belief in anything not status quo?
    It's like a "Judaism" forum run by Nazis...It's like a "rap" forum run by white supremists...[insert another joke here]

    Because no one will ever fairly consider anything you say, or even relent to universally accepted facts that support you, the "Against the Mainstream" forum is like "contradiction therapy".

    This therapy, as seen on "The Big Bang Theory" TV show, is to be contradictory to aggravate and motivate someone.

    Every generation has those that believe science has all of the answers. Be it ego, or ignorance, they will never acknowledge the otherwise universally accepted conclusion that there are many mysteries, unanswered questions throughout cosmology and theoretical physics. If I had time I could research and provide many quotes to that effect, I have already posted five I believe.... Who needs that anyway?

    A wise man once said "if you don't have the answer, you should be open for suggestions".

    I present new material, not found elsewhere. If someone is not doing that, then they are redundant, doing nothing but regurgitating that which has been printed and discussed ad nauseam. [Almost no science book in the library has "new" information...]

    If any idea or theory is new, readers should not expect [or demand] quotes of anyone previously stating or confirming the overall conclusions, which obviously won't exist [per se]. Each separate detail of your theory may be referenced, and even accepted separately. Yet people will play this game of "you have a chassis, you have a transmission, you have a body, a gas tank, wheels and suspension, motor, steering wheel, windows, seats, ash tray, a horn; but you don't have a car....

    If people ask normal questions in a normal friendly way, I will try to answer the best I can. Those who try to verbally abuse me; insult , misrepresent, mock, or belittle me don't deserve attention. I will try not to validate that behavior by responding to abusive posting, except maybe to quote the abusive language.

    Wise men debate. Fools argue. There is no such thing as a wise man arguing with a fool.

    The resulting threads COULD be a more normal forum, retrospective, well thought, productive, respectful; without insults and knee-jerk contradiction. Something you could be proud to show to Historians, Physicists, Statesmen, your grandkids.

    Something new might be discovered or learned. Two heads are better than one. I owe credit to certain other transient beings on the 'net.

    You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I would like to see a "For the Against the Mainstream" thread, where there were friendly, open-minded people who don't believe in the infallibility of the status quo. Unbiased people who are searching for, or open to; alternative answers. These things only anger the current ATM crowd.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
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  2. #2
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    In your ATM thread Magnetic reconnection / quasars, I posted that I thought you were misusing the term "magnetic reconnection". You ignored my post, was it because you thought it was hostile?

    https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...97#post2459597

    ETA: The first job of a scientist is to be skeptical of science. Scientists are always testing and reanalyzing.
    Last edited by grapes; 2018-Sep-05 at 05:59 PM. Reason: ETA

  3. #3
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    Closed pending moderator discussion.

    Please do not start another thread while we discuss
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    All moderation in purple - The rules

  4. #4
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    The OP was moved here from CT as this is the proper forum to discuss how the Board operates. Note that discussion should be limited to that topic, specifically how ATM operates, and must not discuss any ATM ideas.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
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    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.
    Doctor Who

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  5. #5
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    Much of what you experienced in ATM is directly attributable to you not following our rules...which you have been all but begged to read and follow.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    You will be punished if you don't apply a "big bang bias" to everything and accept status quo conclusions; conclusions which are contradictory, illogical, unobserved, ambiguous; impossible by laws of physics including conservation, motion, and thermodynamics.


    What was the purpose of an "Against the Mainstream" forum when no one there would ever in a million years allow belief in anything not status quo?

    False. You are subject to moderator action if you violate our rules. Nowhere in those rules are you required to apply a "big bang bias." You can believe whatever you desire without "punishment." But if you want to use this site to make ATM claims, you have to follow our rules. It's that simple. You simply didn't do that.


    If people ask normal questions in a normal friendly way, I will try to answer the best I can. Those who try to verbally abuse me; insult , misrepresent, mock, or belittle me don't deserve attention. I will try not to validate that behavior by responding to abusive posting, except maybe to quote the abusive language.

    Our rules require that all members behave politely. If you feel that a post is insulting, mocking or otherwise abusive and wish to lodge a complaint, then our rules call for you to report it or PM a moderator about it. You didn't, as far as I can tell. But make no mistake, the rules do not allow you to ignore questions in the ATM forum. Please note that blunt challenges to your claims are not impolite in and of themselves. Calling your idea wrong is not a personal insult. Simply pointing out that your understanding of mainstream science is lacking, is not being abusive.


    Now, if you want a forum where you can make ATM claims in a supportive, non-critical environment, I think it likely that you'll have to find another website that allows it (there are several) or start one of your own where you make the rules. The idea has been floated here in feedback several times and in my opinion you have provided nothing new in the way of support for the proposal...unless you have something more to add.
    Last edited by PetersCreek; 2018-Sep-05 at 10:04 PM. Reason: clarification
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    [This is not a pure science post, yet not off-topic babbling. It is I suppose a conspiracy of the suppression of alternative ideas]

    "Against the Mainstream" seems to imply the fair, unbiased consideration of new ideas that are not status quo. Instead, it is suppressive, and militant in support of status quo from top to bottom. It doesn't matter to them if you use references, observations, proven laws of physics, and every process you describe has been observed and duplicated in labs. You will be punished if you don't apply a "big bang bias" to everything and accept status quo conclusions; conclusions which are contradictory, illogical, unobserved, ambiguous; impossible by laws of physics including conservation, motion, and thermodynamics.
    The ATM section of this forum has its own set of rules, which apply in addition to the general set.

    If you spend an hour or two browsing these rules, and the (often very lengthy) discussions on them, you'll learn why those rules are the way they are.

    If you have suggestions for modifications to those rules, you are very welcome to post them ... and I (and other registered members) are free to discuss those suggestions.

    For me, a key part of my (polite) examination of a new ATM idea is to understand the sources, or "references, observations, proven laws of physics" in your words.

    <snip>

    I present new material, not found elsewhere. If someone is not doing that, then they are redundant, doing nothing but regurgitating that which has been printed and discussed ad nauseam. [Almost no science book in the library has "new" information...]
    New material is welcome, especially in ATM threads!

    For me, though, I want to understand what is new and what has been published before; and if not new, I want to know the primary source of such. I often go check that for myself, to assure myself that what's presented is accurate.

    If any idea or theory is new, readers should not expect [or demand] quotes of anyone previously stating or confirming the overall conclusions, which obviously won't exist [per se]. Each separate detail of your theory may be referenced, and even accepted separately. <snip>
    Indeed.

    For me, it is important to understand what new ideas presented in ATM threads are based on.

    <snip>

    Wise men debate. Fools argue. There is no such thing as a wise man arguing with a fool.

    The resulting threads COULD be a more normal forum, retrospective, well thought, productive, respectful; without insults and knee-jerk contradiction. Something you could be proud to show to Historians, Physicists, Statesmen, your grandkids.

    Something new might be discovered or learned. Two heads are better than one. I owe credit to certain other transient beings on the 'net.

    You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I would like to see a "For the Against the Mainstream" thread, where there were friendly, open-minded people who don't believe in the infallibility of the status quo. Unbiased people who are searching for, or open to; alternative answers. These things only anger the current ATM crowd.

    <snip>
    To be clear: I, for one, do not "believe in the infallibility of the status quo".

    However, I think that "the status quo" got to be so through rigorous questioning, examination, and so on. And I think that any new ideas presented in the ATM section of this forum should be subject to polite but rigorous questioning and examination.

  7. #7
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    Notwithstanding your positions regarding "verbal abuse, insult[ing], misrepresent[ing], mock[ing], or belittl[ing]," about which I'm not seeing evidence and will not comment, I do have a problem with your following claim:


    Wise men debate. Fools argue. There is no such thing as a wise man arguing with a fool.

    Did you make this up? I think it's nonsense. Actually, I see little difference between debating and arguing. I've written motions and oppositions and argued legal positions for the past 10 years. That's how it's done. The format is typically: Statement of Facts, and then Argument. One argues on those facts and supports the argument by reference to known precedent. I don't think conflicting scientific positions and discussions take any significant different format.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    Every generation has those that believe science has all of the answers. Be it ego, or ignorance, they will never acknowledge the otherwise universally accepted conclusion that there are many mysteries, unanswered questions throughout cosmology and theoretical physics.
    So, there are unanswered questions....so what...it's certainly no reason to abandon scientific investigative procedures.


    ...If that is what you are arguing...i'm not sure...
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    ETA: The first job of a scientist is to be skeptical of science. Scientists are always testing and reanalyzing.
    I pity the scientist who doesn't "catch" his own mistakes before submitting a new idea...because mistakes will be found when peer reviewed.
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    Unbiased people who are searching for, or open to; alternative answers.
    If you are "open to" alternative answers (translation, non-scientific answers), then by definition you are biased against scientific.


    I see nothing here to discuss...
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I would like to see a "For the Against the Mainstream" thread, where there were friendly, open-minded people who don't believe in the infallibility of the status quo. Unbiased people who are searching for, or open to; alternative answers. These things only anger the current ATM crowd.
    Perhaps by "current ATM crowd" you are referring to specific posters, I dunno. In general, scientists are open to new or different answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndClassCitizen View Post
    Unbiased people who are searching for, or open to; alternative answers.
    If you are "open to" alternative answers (translation, non-scientific answers), then by definition you are biased against scientific.
    Sure, if that's the way you "translate" it. However, scientists are always open to alternative scientific answers.
    I see nothing here to discuss...
    I think you've mis-translated it.

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