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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Do you imagine artworks talking to you? Telling you what you want to hear?

    Grant Hutchison
    If I am not mistaken, we are talking about a video of a black square.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    If I am not mistaken, we are talking about a video of a black square.
    And I'm seeking to understand what on earth could have made you imagine that I would experience what amounts to a self-serving auditory hallucination while watching a video of a black square. That idea must have come from somewhere, surely? If not from your own experience, then what?

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Wouldn't it be a fine thing if it was just a video of a silent, black square?

    Grant Hutchison
    You posted this, and I simply commented.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    And I'm seeking to understand what on earth could have made you imagine that I would experience what amounts to a self-serving auditory hallucination while watching a video of a black square. That idea must have come from somewhere, surely? If not from your own experience, then what?

    Grant Hutchison
    I think the idea is that most videos come with sound. If the video is of a black square, allowing you to see what you want to see in it, why not also have a soundless sound track, so you can hear what you want to hear in it?

    Now that, sirs, is art.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I think the idea is that most videos come with sound. If the video is of a black square, allowing you to see what you want to see in it, why not also have a soundless sound track, so you can hear what you want to hear in it?
    But a blank video saying what I want to hear? That's sufficiently outside the normal range of human experience that you can command the immediate attention of a psychiatrist if you make that sort of report. So slightly unwelcome to have that sort of suggestion directed at me.

    Anyway, my point was that a video entitled "Why Is Modern Art So Bad?", which then went on to feature a silent black square, would have a marvellous ambiguity of meaning.

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  6. #156
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    This is my video "Black square without sound". I've put it on an infinite loop in the frame below.



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  7. #157
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    I hear what you're saying.

    Grant Hutchison
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    This is my video "Black square without sound". I've put it on an infinite loop in the frame below.



    Now, the next step is to remove the square.

  9. #159
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    OK now I have to comment that my normal screen is kind of grey and lit by the room lighting but...the square looks blacker than that. Even though I know it cannot be really black it looks black. It's kind of ... inspiring, In a self critical kind of way.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  10. #160
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    I was about to suggest using a blindfold, when I saw that someone beat me to it:


    “For Mr. Hegaln, it’s about the allowing the audience to experience the installation at in its purest form, without the intrusion of distracting visuals,” explained MoCoCo Chief Curator N. O. Seaman. “The artist believes that if people view the exhibit, they will impose a layer upon it, a lens created by all the visual experiences of their lives. By blindfolding the viewer, the artist’s vision will be not manipulated by the viewers’ personal, physical vision.”
    http://chicagoartmagazine.com/2010/0...ndfold-darkly/

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    I was about to suggest using a blindfold, when I saw that someone beat me to it:




    http://chicagoartmagazine.com/2010/0...ndfold-darkly/
    Well! There's nothing to stop art (or artists) from being pretentious and silly.

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    If you were incorrect
    A fact is just a fantasy
    Unless it can be checked
    Make a test
    Test it out"
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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    I was about to suggest using a blindfold, when I saw that someone beat me to it:

    “For Mr. Hegaln, it’s about the allowing the audience to experience the installation at in its purest form, without the intrusion of distracting visuals,” explained MoCoCo Chief Curator N. O. Seaman. “The artist believes that if people view the exhibit, they will impose a layer upon it, a lens created by all the visual experiences of their lives. By blindfolding the viewer, the artist’s vision will be not manipulated by the viewers’ personal, physical vision.”
    http://chicagoartmagazine.com/2010/0...ndfold-darkly/
    <Sigh.>
    [originally posted 4/1/2010]
    ...
    [Chicago Art Magazine wishes everyone a safe and healthy April Fool’s Day]
    Grant Hutchison
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  13. #163
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    Continuing (no April’s Fool)...
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/a...-required.html

  14. #164
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    have you ever experience deliberate binaural beats? They are delivered by headphones and a blindfold helps concentrate. The idea is two frequencies slightly shifted so as to produce beats in your head and then cunningly modulated with other stuff, music or words or sound effects. Some people are more susceptible than others it is said, but it produces a weird feeling that some call an altered state or out of body experience. I can imagine an installation where the headphones could be replaced if your head is in the right place and echoes are minimised. You could call it art. The idea that all art is visual is rather restricted, many sculptures for example are designed to be touched and the touch sensation of shape is different from seeing. Blindfolds would help.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    I don't subscribe to the New York Times, so I can't see the article.

    For folk like me, here is the description of the Generator installation from the artist's own webpage. (And the webpage itself echoes Generator, just a little - you'll see what I mean when you get there.)

    Grant Hutchison
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  16. #166
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    Strange, can not see your link, just a blank page, unless that is what was intended...

  17. #167
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    In the meantime a quote from the NY Times article:

    To take part in this activity, you are blindfolded and outfitted with noise-canceling headphones. With your vision and hearing thus blocked, you enter the main gallery, where there may be no one else or as many as 67 others. You can move around, touch other people and stay as long as you like. While this situation is objectively the same for all, how any one participant experiences it will be largely subjective

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Strange, can not see your link, just a blank page, unless that is what was intended...
    That's what's intended. And then you scroll down. (The hint comes from the scroll bar in your browser.)
    It's about initial sensory blankness, and the reward that comes with exploration. Like Generator.

    Grant Hutchison
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  19. #169
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    From my days in educational research, I remember the TAT -- Thematic Apperception Test -- as a series of cards with pictures, often artwork. These were to be shown to a test subject, and his/her reaction were recorded for later analysis.

    One of the cards was just blank (and white). After a puzzled start, the subject got to respond, with quite a lot of leeway. Many said. "Nothing. So?" Some went right off with imaginative replies.

    I found these things fascinating, if somewhat (to my taste) less that scientific. TAT made more sense than the Rorschach Test, although I'd hate to ruin someone's future via analysis of either of these.

  20. #170
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    Maybe the question instead of what is art should be what is not art?
    Last edited by gzhpcu; 2018-Sep-26 at 07:25 AM. Reason: clarity

  21. #171
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    Sometimes, I wonder if some of the antipathy to non-representational art is the same sort of anti-intellectualism that is the basis of the anti-vaccination movement. Art is not free of context or history; without both, a lot is missed.
    Last edited by swampyankee; 2018-Sep-26 at 09:42 AM.

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  22. #172
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    From my point of view, this is neat..... https://youtu.be/PtsXum_vM6A

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Maybe the question instead of what is art should be what is not art?
    Art is that which inspires so non art is that which does not inspire and that applies individually or collectively depending on context. The ability to be inspired might be a human trait, it seems that way.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    This is my video "Black square without sound". I've put it on an infinite loop in the frame below.



    Too bad it's censored.

  25. #175
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    Full disclosure, my younger son is an artist and art instructor. I sent him a link to this thread. He sent me his thoughts and gave me permission to share them here. So ...

    Wow, some really strong opinions in there! Great that something that is over 100 years old still has the ability to rankle some feathers.

    Also funny that I've spent something like half my life seriously studying and practicing art and I don't have a good response to any of this. I guess the thing is that I don't see that as a drawback but more as the starting point.

    When I'm teaching beginning art courses, the example I sometimes give is of a series of 1's and 0's, which look meaningless but are binary code for "hello". With an appropriate context even the most meaningless things can be "decoded" and understood in some way. Then again, I am always hesitant to use that example for a few reasons... first that it reinforces a common feeling that art is elitist and meant to be hard to understand. But more important is that art isn't like a code at all... it's never like a good artwork is simply equitable with some easily stated idea, and it’s up to the viewer to figure that out. I mean, if you could just say a thing easily, why bother making some complicated artwork about it? So I kind of stopped using the binary code example after a while. But that is a more pervasive and subtler assumption than the first one; that art must represent something.

    I guess though, on a personal level, it is weird that some people would reject the black square so vehemently but would probably not be so enthusiastic in rejecting Plato's philosophy of forms, which is sort of the same thing, and would definitely not reject everything that comes out of Plato's philosophies, which are sort of the bedrock for Western culture. Like someone gorging on ice cream insisting they are lactose intolerant.
    (I replied and he responded.)

    Yeah, totally agree about context. But even "hidden meaning" isn't quite it. Like it might not be an Easter egg, and even the artist might not be sure what is hidden there. I think that it can be frustrating when people find themselves looking at something that means nothing to them, and they might end up feeling tricked. I think it should be ok for someone to look at Malevich, shrug and move on, but when they find it upsetting, I don't think it is Malevich's fault, it is more like the viewer isn't aware of their own criteria and assumptions, the context that they carry with them.
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  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    In the meantime a quote from the NY Times article:
    While this situation is objectively the same for all, how any one participant experiences it will be largely subjective
    Indeed. So goes the adage:

    A crowded elevator smells very different to a Little Person.

  27. #177
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    Here is another perspective: https://youtu.be/NSdbASDdwU4

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Sometimes, I wonder if some of the antipathy to non-representational art is the same sort of anti-intellectualism that is the basis of the anti-vaccination movement. Art is not free of context or history; without both, a lot is missed.
    I don't think that I've ever seen someone be against non-representational art as a category. After all, pottery, blown and cut glass, geometric art (e.g. Native American or Islamic), aesthetically designed furniture and architecture are all forms of art that don't represent something else. The only thing that I've seen people rail against is non-representational art that takes no skill, no craft to create.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    I don't think that I've ever seen someone be against non-representational art as a category. After all, pottery, blown and cut glass, geometric art (e.g. Native American or Islamic), aesthetically designed furniture and architecture are all forms of art that don't represent something else. The only thing that I've seen people rail against is non-representational art that takes no skill, no craft to create.
    I agree with that...

  30. #180
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    So if skill and craft are what's required, what do we make of Rauschenberg's Erased de Kooning Drawing?
    Willem de Kooning gave Rauschenberg a drawing, knowing that Rauschenberg would erase and frame it. Was skill and craft involved in its production? If so, is that skill and craft at all relevant to the final work? Would it make any difference if Rauschenberg had erased one of his own drawings? What if de Kooning had made erasure easier, by using pencil instead of ink and charcoal?

    Grant Hutchison
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