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Thread: Nothing.

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    Nothing.

    I'm looking to start a discussion or an argument over nothing. I believe there's no such thing as nothing when it comes to the cosmos.
    I should say, and I'm sure you will easily tell, that I'm not a physicist I'm not even a shade tree physicist but I've got this notion and I want to bring it up with people that I respect.
    I once heard a physicist say that he mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing this erked the bejesus out of me. Because no matter how small you get towards what looks like nothing there is always something smaller.
    of course that something is what we call dark matter these days but it goes a lot further than the general understanding of dark matter. For every particle there is a particle that's smaller and there is a particle that is larger. And it goes like that to Infinity or near Infiniti, if the word infinity gives you hiccups. I really hope to get a response to this because this thing has been bugging me since I was 17 years old I'm 72 now. Thank you.

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    once heard a physicist say that he mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing
    Could you please provide a source to this?


    If all of time started at the the Big Bang, then off course there would be such a thing as "nothing". Before this event.
    There was no time to record it.

    -- Dennis
    Last edited by BetaDust; 2018-Sep-26 at 08:32 PM.
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    <snip>
    For every particle there is a particle that's smaller and there is a particle that is larger.
    Do you have evidence for that idea? Our current understanding is that quarks and leptons are the smallest particles; there is no evidence for anything smaller. And how could there be ever larger particles? Are there planet sized particles, solar system sized particles? If so, what is your definition of particle? And what does particle size have to do with the existence of "nothing"?
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    I always wonder, if there were a fundamental particle, what exactly would it be made of?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    I always wonder, if there were a fundamental particle, what exactly would it be made of?
    A great question, but perhaps it would be beter posted in the "space and astronomy Q and A" part of the board?

    -- Dennis
    Last edited by BetaDust; 2018-Sep-26 at 09:14 PM.
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

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    Could you please provide a source to this?

    Thank you Beta Dust for your interest in my Notions. You've got me cold I cannot remember the physicist named who mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing.
    My only defense is logic and reason. So I lose a bunch of credibility right off the bat.
    I just can't buy The Big Bang Theory and time starting up with an explosion. if there is a such thing as Infinity, then time would have already been underway.
    Time is a stick (so to speak) that mankind came up with that measures seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, Millenia, and epocs and depending on which scale you're using you can measure a rate of change as it occurs around us. So time is just a way of measuring change as it goes on around us.
    Stephen Hawking came up with a little diddy that shows our Earth is in the exact middle in size to all other heavenly bodies because they go smaller and smaller to Infinity and they go larger and larger to Infiniti. I believe he was demonstrating that things do get smaller and smaller and larger and larger. They could be called particles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    I always wonder, if there were a fundamental particle, what exactly would it be made of?
    Let me make that official. ATM threads are not the place for general discussion or random musings; they are for the OP to present their idea and for direct questions about it. And you've been here long enough to know that.
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    I'll toss out these 2 thoughts, no physicist here either.
    1. How about the voids in the universe, the big empty bubble-like spots between clusters of galaxies. Sure there are atoms or molecules of H and something randomly passing by from the EM spectrum, but the space between these incursions seems pretty empty.
    2. The space between the nucleus of an atom and its orbiting electrons, a pretty small space, but is it empty?

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    If all of time started at the the Big Bang, then off course there would be such a thing as "nothing". Before this event.
    There was no time to record it.

    I used to be a believer in the Big Bang but that was some years ago now. It was a tidy little way of looking at things and getting a little closure, but I just can't buy into it anymore. If there is a such thing as Infinity then the clock could not have started with an explosion.
    Time is a man-made concept it gives us a way to measure change is it goes on around us. Whether it be seconds, minutes, hours, days, Millenia or epocs we have a way to measure them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    I'll toss out these 2 thoughts, no physicist here either.
    1. How about the voids in the universe, the big empty bubble-like spots between clusters of galaxies. Sure there are atoms or molecules of H and something randomly passing by from the EM spectrum, but the space between these incursions seems pretty empty.
    2. The space between the nucleus of an atom and its orbiting electrons, a pretty small space, but is it empty?
    1. Maybe. Depending what the OP means by “nothing”

    2. That would be true in the (incorrect) Bohr model. But not in our current understanding of atoms (more detail would probably require a new thread)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    I believe there's no such thing as nothing
    Can you define what you mean by “nothing”. I don’t see how there can be nothing unless the universe didn’t exist. In which case the question becomes moot

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    I'll toss out these 2 thoughts, no physicist here either.
    1. How about the voids in the universe, the big empty bubble-like spots between clusters of galaxies. Sure there are atoms or molecules of H and something randomly passing by from the EM spectrum, but the space between these incursions seems pretty empty.
    2. The space between the nucleus of an atom and its orbiting electrons, a pretty small space, but is it empty?


    To my Reckoning there are no voids in space just dark matter. Dark matter is around and all through Infinity it's in US it's in Atoms as well and it goes forever smaller and ever larger. Depending on which scale you use we are dark matter along with our Earth and our universe we are all part of it. I know I'm going to get a huh and a head scratch out of that but it's really hard to explain in just a few lines. But yes on a larger scale our Earth is a particle as well as the sun the and all the bodies in the universe and the cosmos.
    It must sound like I'm trying to start a religion here but I assure you I am not. I'm just not a religious person. I like looking at things in a fundamental way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post

    I just can't buy The Big Bang Theory and time starting up with an explosion. if there is a such thing as Infinity, then time would have already been underway.
    There is no infinty, it all begins at the big bang.
    There was no "explosion". The Universe started. And then, time began.
    There was no time before that, so there is nothing "already underway".
    There was nothing, before time started.

    -- Dennis
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

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    If all of time started at the the Big Bang, then off course there would be such a thing as "nothing". Before this event.
    There was no time to record it.

    I used to believe in the Big Bang but not anymore. Now I see how much larger picture
    As far as time starting up with an explosion I argue that change was already occurring before the so-called big bang. I see time is a man-made device to measure seconds minutes hours days Millenia and epocs and depending on which scale you use you can determine a rate of change as it goes on around us and as it has gone on around us
    If there is a such thing as Infinity then the cosmos existed before the Big Bang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetaDust View Post
    Could you please provide a source to this?


    If all of time started at the the Big Bang, then off course there would be such a thing as "nothing". Before this event.
    There was no time to record it.

    -- Dennis
    You say IF time started at the Big Bang. I believe there is infinity or near Infinity and no beginning to the cosmos. I'm not saying really that there was no big bang I'm just saying that was not the event that caused the universe to emerge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetaDust View Post
    There is no infinty
    The universe might be infinite. We don’t know.

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    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

    Hi Mike, I think I would rather be torn to shreds and get all of this out of my system or have it moved forward..

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    The universe might be infinite. We don’t know.

    I don't believe the universe is infinite it had a beginning and it will have an end. The cosmos however is infinite or nearly so.

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    Can you define what you mean by “nothing”. I don’t see how there can be nothing unless the universe didn’t exist.

    At one time the universe didn't exist in my view. But the cosmos have been around forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The universe might be infinite. We donít know.

    That is correct, Offcourse. And IMHO i think we will never "Realy" know for sure.


    -- Dennis
    Last edited by BetaDust; 2018-Sep-26 at 11:06 PM.
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

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    All - As Swift warned, this thread and the ATM forum are not for general ATM discussion or musings. Mickey R is here to present a theory and respond to challenges to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

    Hi Mike, I think I would rather be torn to shreds and get all of this out of my system or have it moved forward..
    Mickey R,

    Of course, you wouldnít be expected to know this but the quote you responded to is from a deceased member. It also isnít directly on topic for this thread.

    On that topic, you really need more than bare assertion. I approved your post for the ATM forum based upon your assurance that you were prepared to discuss it according to our rules. Please begin presenting support for your ideas, if you have it.
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    Mod. Posted faster.
    Last edited by BetaDust; 2018-Sep-26 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Mod posted faster .

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    I don't believe I really have any support for my ideas. But I'm so far out there in a logical kind of way that there would be no one to support me or nothing to support me. Maybe I could say that when atoms were first being considered there wasn't any real support either. But if I'm out of line and you'd like me to stop I will certainly respect your wishes.

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    Let's start by reviewing what the so-called Big Bang theory says and what it does not say. As I think I understand it, the theory can be back-extrapolated to an instant in time where the observable universe is packed into a vanishingly small space by our standards and is ultra-hot and ultra-dense. If we try to extrapolate back another 10-35 second or so the physics breaks down because of quantum-mechanical issues, so it does not say one way or another what existed or did not exist before then. The theory in its present form is the best we have now. If we can ever somehow unify general relativity and quantum mechanics, we might be able to extrapolate and make inferences farther back in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    I believe there's no such thing as nothing when it comes to the cosmos.
    Well, it's my understanding that this is the current mainstream view of the universe at the moment. The Uncertainty Principal guarantees that there will always be at a minimum some sort of quantum fluctuation at any given point in space, so therefore there is no such thing as actual empty space.

    I once heard a physicist say that he mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing this erked the bejesus out of me.
    Unless you are talking about a mathematical definition of nothing like 0 (which certainly exists), then I really don't know what this physicist was talking about. Keep in mind that many people will CLAIM to be a physicist, so are you certain that where you heard it from was a reputable source? Also, you said you heard this 55 years ago, which would mean you heard this sometime in the mid 1960's. Our understanding of quantum mechanics and the universe as a whole has changed a LOT since then. It's entirely possible that even if he was a physicist he was simply wrong when he said that.


    of course that something is what we call dark matter these days......
    Let me stop you there, that is not what dark matter is.

    For every particle there is a particle that's smaller and there is a particle that is larger.
    Nope. For this to be true would require literally an infinite amount of particles. The standard model has only 12 iirc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    I'm looking to start a discussion or an argument over nothing. I believe there's no such thing as nothing when it comes to the cosmos.
    I should say, and I'm sure you will easily tell, that I'm not a physicist I'm not even a shade tree physicist but I've got this notion and I want to bring it up with people that I respect.
    I once heard a physicist say that he mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing this erked the bejesus out of me. Because no matter how small you get towards what looks like nothing there is always something smaller.
    of course that something is what we call dark matter these days but it goes a lot further than the general understanding of dark matter. For every particle there is a particle that's smaller and there is a particle that is larger. And it goes like that to Infinity or near Infiniti, if the word infinity gives you hiccups. I really hope to get a response to this because this thing has been bugging me since I was 17 years old I'm 72 now. Thank you.
    The evidence is that all fundamental particles have the same size. They are point particles with no extent. QM works with point particles. Experiments give extremely small upper limits.
    Composite particles like protons have sizes. Atoms have sizes. Planets have sizes. Galaxies haves sizes. The observable universe has a size. So that should resolve what is bugging you. Everything gets smaller and smaller and smaller until it is the same "size".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    You say IF time started at the Big Bang. I believe there is infinity or near Infinity and no beginning to the cosmos. I'm not saying really that there was no big bang I'm just saying that was not the event that caused the universe to emerge.
    You keep saying you 'believe'

    You can believe what you want but if you want to convince anyone else you need to put forward some evidence to support your belief.
    Just repeating you don't believe or you do believe is not evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    Can you define what you mean by “nothing”. I don’t see how there can be nothing unless the universe didn’t exist.
    Yes. Nothing is nothing. There was no time, no space, no universe. Zip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    At one time the universe didn't exist in my view. But the cosmos have been around forever.
    Could you explain what you mean by this?

    How can there be a "cosmos" if it's not in our universe? There is nothing outside our universe.
    The universe is everything there is.

    -- Dennis
    Last edited by BetaDust; 2018-Sep-27 at 09:45 PM.
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

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    Let me ask this:

    As you say the "cosmos" has been around forever... forever in what?

    There is no time. Forever does not mean anyting if there is no time.
    Not a millisecond, or a trillion years, no before or after, no forever, no past or future.
    Those concepts make no sense without time being there.

    They came to be. At the birth of our universe.

    -- Dennis
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Can you define what you mean by ďnothingĒ. I donít see how there can be nothing unless the universe didnít exist. In which case the question becomes moot
    What I mean by nothing is absolutely nothing there is no time no consciousness no heavenly bodies just nothing.

    And that's the way the standard model sees it because of the Big Bang. There was nothing before the Big Bang. But I disagree, there is something if there is infinity. And nothing can't happen.
    For my theories to work I have to separate the universe from the cosmos. The cosmos is infinite and the universe is finite. The universe emerged out of the cosmos more or less all at the same time.
    With the big bang and the standard model I personally am a little bit stuck because they allow nothing to be nothing. But if you believe in infinity the whole thing opens up to some very interesting ideas and nothing no longer holds sway over the pursuit for answers.




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