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Thread: Nothing.

  1. #31
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    How do you separate the universe from the cosmos?
    Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. - Niels Bohr

    Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

    Hint: this is at heart a scientific forum, and underneath the fooling around there are some diamond-hard minds hanging about, ready to tear you to shreads. -- Mike Alexander

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Do you have evidence for that idea? Our current understanding is that quarks and leptons are the smallest particles; there is no evidence for anything smaller. And how could there be ever larger particles? Are there planet sized particles, solar system sized particles? If so, what is your definition of particle? And what does particle size have to do with the existence of "nothing"?
    Thank you for your questions.
    As far as evidence for my idea is concerned there is none. It's just my idea with logical reasoning behind it. Once one is down to quarks and leptons you end up at nothing according to the standard model. But if you believe the cosmos, not the universe, is infinite there will be something after quarks and leptons and go down that way forever.
    I do have a definition for what a particle is and I like it. I just don't think now is the time 2 explain it. If I can get these Notions that we've been discussing seated then we'll be able to go on from there.
    I like your questions and I hope you will be able to hang on for the definition of particles.

  3. #33
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    I get it news caster but the nothing I'm referring to has to do with the universe and the cosmos.

  4. #34
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    The space between the nucleus and the electron seems small to us but from a different perspective that space could be vast. The way I see it by the way is that that is not empty space it's full of dark matter which is particles that we are unable to detect.

  5. #35
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    If the size of particles goes down forever and upward forever then physics IS Unified.

  6. #36
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    Yes exactly. If there is a such thing as Infinity then particles go downward and upward forever. This not only unifies physics but opens the door to a lot more Notions and theories.

  7. #37
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    Yes, unfortunately you're right. There is no evidence to refer to. This is all coming straight out of my mind and apparently is a very new way of looking at things. This is just a series of epiphanies that make a whole theory when it's all put together. As of now I'm a long way from that and may not be allowed to continue. But I'm hoping I last long enough to get some of these ideas kind of seated and everybody's head and then maybe you let me go a little further yet.

  8. #38
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    Hi Dennis. I know that the universe is considered to be everything and there's nothing outside of it. But if there is infinity then space goes further than the limits of our universe and I refer to that as the cosmos. and it maybe kind of unsettling to see things that way but if I am allowed to put this all together it will be overall, a pretty simple model. But if I can't get everyone to see what Infinity is then I'm pretty much done.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    And that's the way the standard model sees it because of the Big Bang. There was nothing before the Big Bang.
    The standard model is that the Big Bang starts with the universe in a hot dense state and we do not know what came before that state. Thus your ATM idea is not arguing against the mainstream, Mickey R.

    FYI: At t = 0, our laws of physics give infinities. This is called the initial singularity. Up to t = about 10^-36 seconds, the quantum effects of gravity dominate so separate GR and QM should not give correct predictions. We need a quantum gravity theory. Beyond t about 10^-36 seconds, the laws of physics work.

    There are speculative theories that include t = 0 and even t < 0. However I have not seen a "nothing before the Big Bang" cosmology. For example, brane cosmology has our universe embedded in a "bulk" universe.

    A universe being infinite does not mean that it contains something. We can have an infinite, empty (vacuum) universe.
    Nothing is not an event and so "nothing can't happen" is misstated.
    There is no evidence that the universe is finite. We know it that it is much larger than the observable universe. We have measured its curvature and that includes a flat universe. An exactly flat universe suggests an infinite universe.
    The big bang and the standard model "believe in infinity". There is no restriction to a finite universe.

    P.S. Infinity is the state of being without bounds Be careful that you do not treat is as a number.
    The universe is everything in our universe.
    The standard model has a universe that is mathematically described without references to anything outside of it. IOW: the universe is everything, full stop. To visualize this consider the balloon analogy where a balloon with dots on it is blown up. This demonstrates that the dots expands away from any point on the surface. The interior and exterior of t he balloon are irrelevant and ignored - there is no outside. Mathematically, the balloon can be defined only by the properties of its surface, e.g. distances along the surface. Extend the mathematical definition of that 2D surface to 3 dimensions. This is an object only defined by the 3D distances within that object and has no outside. Extend again to spacetime.
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2018-Sep-27 at 11:51 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetaDust View Post
    There is no infinty, it all begins at the big bang.
    There was no "explosion". The Universe started. And then, time began.
    There was no time before that, so there is nothing "already underway".
    There was nothing, before time started.
    I would say that this idea that the universe "started from nothing" is one (speculative) idea. There is no real evidence for it. It is based on a "naive" extrapolation of GR. There are several other models where the universe does not start from nothing (and doesn't even "start").

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    But if you believe the cosmos, not the universe, is infinite there will be something after quarks and leptons and go down that way forever.
    The universe/cosmos can be infinite (I assume you mean infinite in size) even if the "smallest" particles are quarks and leptons. The two concepts seem entirely unrelated.

    Also, talking about "smaller" at this level becomes meaningless because, as far as we can tell, the fundamental particles have zero size. So there isn't really any way something can be smaller. It is also a good indication that they are not made of smaller particles, because if they were, they would have physical size.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    If the size of particles goes down forever and upward forever then physics IS Unified.
    You need to justify that (ideally, mathematically) not just claim it.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    Hi Dennis. I know that the universe is considered to be everything and there's nothing outside of it. But if there is infinity then space goes further than the limits of our universe and I refer to that as the cosmos.
    This seems to be a false distinction. The universe or cosmos is all there is. If there is something "beyond" that then that is also part of the universe or cosmos.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey R View Post
    Could you please provide a source to this?

    Thank you Beta Dust for your interest in my Notions. You've got me cold I cannot remember the physicist named who mathematically proved that there is a such thing as nothing.
    My only defense is logic and reason. So I lose a bunch of credibility right off the bat.
    I just can't buy The Big Bang Theory and time starting up with an explosion. if there is a such thing as Infinity, then time would have already been underway.
    Time is a stick (so to speak) that mankind came up with that measures seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, Millenia, and epocs and depending on which scale you're using you can measure a rate of change as it occurs around us. So time is just a way of measuring change as it goes on around us.
    Stephen Hawking came up with a little diddy that shows our Earth is in the exact middle in size to all other heavenly bodies because they go smaller and smaller to Infinity and they go larger and larger to Infiniti. I believe he was demonstrating that things do get smaller and smaller and larger and larger. They could be called particles.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Possibly this guy?

  15. #45
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    Mickey R,

    Since your ideas are not sufficiently to be a defensible hypothesis or theory and because you offer no math or supporting evidence of any kind, this thread is closed. If, within the 30-day time limit for this thread, you find that you can bring some science to the table, please report this post to ask that the thread be reopened.
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    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

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