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Thread: Does all reality come from the same source?

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    Does all reality come from the same source?

    Is it some kind of underlying assumption, that all of reality, and 'laws' of physics spring from the same well, and that everything is interconnected?

    It seems to me it might be. The idea of a theory of everything seems to suggest that one model could cover it all.


    I personally believe that it does all come from an eternal source of some kind, but is it really just an assumption for science?


    Maybe whatever dark matter is can interact with matter but comes from another source..for example?
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    Define "other source".

    Grant Hutchison
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Define "other source".

    Grant Hutchison
    I suppose a source that couldn't be integrated into a hypothetical TOE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    I suppose a source that couldn't be integrated into a hypothetical TOE.
    If there are things that are not part of it then it isn't a TOE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    If there are things that are not part of it then it isn't a TOE.
    yes, I realise that...I suppose I meant sources that couldn't be part of an attempt to create a TOE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    yes, I realise that...I suppose I meant sources that couldn't be part of an attempt to create a TOE.
    I'll admit I have no idea what you are talking about now. If the TOE doesn't encompass all the 'laws of physics' as we observe them then it is not a TOE. You seem to be asking a question that just doesn't make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    I'll admit I have no idea what you are talking about now. If the TOE doesn't encompass all the 'laws of physics' as we observe them then it is not a TOE. You seem to be asking a question that just doesn't make sense.

    That is why said 'attempt' to create a TOE...obviously a Theory of Everything which doesn't include everything isn't a real theory of everything..
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    That is why said 'attempt' to create a TOE...obviously a Theory of Everything which doesn't include everything isn't a real theory of everything..
    And so ...?
    It seems you're asking if a failed Theory of Everything might fail because it doesn't include everything.

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    I'm just asking whether with the presence of the idea that there could be a TOE, that there is the assumption, by some scientists, that everything comes from the same source, and it can all be integrated under one umbrella theory.
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    But what does "the same source" mean? How could we tell it from "different sources"?

    Grant Hutchison
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    well take the idea of energy....if everything originally came from a source of energy, maybe there are two or more sources of energy..if reality of some sort has always existed, this doesn't, it seem to me, necessarily mean that there couldn't be more than one sources of eternally existing eg energy...maybe these different types of energy, look and behave similarly, for all we know. Maybe dark matter is the product of another source of energy than baryonic matter..
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    Would an example of what you are asking be the apparent divide between quantum physics and general relativity? We currently are trying to reconcile this by finding a deeper understanding of physics (a "theory of everything") from which we can then derive both general relativity and quantum physics. But I suppose it could be possible that there are just 2 different sets of the laws of physics at work in our universe, with general relativity coming from one set and quantum physics coming from the other. Is that something like what you are asking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    well take the idea of energy....if everything originally came from a source of energy, maybe there are two or more sources of energy..if reality of some sort has always existed, this doesn't, it seem to me, necessarily mean that there couldn't be more than one sources of eternally existing eg energy...maybe these different types of energy, look and behave similarly, for all we know. Maybe dark matter is the product of another source of energy than baryonic matter..
    Whether or not there are two sources of energy, a theory of how our universe works would simply model how those two sources work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    Would an example of what you are asking be the apparent divide between quantum physics and general relativity? We currently are trying to reconcile this by finding a deeper understanding of physics (a "theory of everything") from which we can then derive both general relativity and quantum physics. But I suppose it could be possible that there are just 2 different sets of the laws of physics at work in our universe, with general relativity coming from one set and quantum physics coming from the other. Is that something like what you are asking about?
    sort of...but I am sort of referring to the idea that for example, dark matter might derive from a different source than baryonic matter, and have to be studied separately with possibly no way to build a uniting theory about the two types of matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Whether or not there are two sources of energy, a theory of how our universe works would simply model how those two sources work.
    Yes, it could model how those two sources work, but might be unable to unite them in any fundamental way.

    A theory of everything isn't really possible, IMO, as we will never be sure what 'everything' comprises of, only what we can make scientific observations of.
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    But Wax, you still have not defined what "source" you mean. The BBT as it currently stands, regarding the source of our Universe, is not a TOE. It's a backward extrapolation of our current observations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    sort of...but I am sort of referring to the idea that for example, dark matter might derive from a different source than baryonic matter, and have to be studied separately with possibly no way to build a uniting theory about the two types of matter.


    Yes, it could model how those two sources work, but might be unable to unite them in any fundamental way.

    A theory of everything isn't really possible, IMO, as we will never be sure what 'everything' comprises of, only what we can make scientific observations of.
    If we can't observe it, it has no existence for us. Something that does not interact with our Universe in any way, is not really part of our Universe, is it?

    Also, a TOE is not literally a theory of every item in the Universe. It unites GR with Quantum Mechanics, that's all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    A theory of everything isn't really possible, IMO, as we will never be sure what 'everything' comprises of, only what we can make scientific observations of.
    We cannot be expected to make theories to cover things that do not exist, as far as we observe.

    So, a theory of everything would encompass everything we observe. And by definition, there isn't anything else.

    To put another way: when there is nothing left to explain, we will have our TOE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    A theory of everything isn't really possible, IMO, as we will never be sure what 'everything' comprises of, only what we can make scientific observations of.
    As others have mentioned a Theory of Everything, in the Physics world, just means that all of the known physics are unified under one theory. It doesn't have to explain abstract art or the warm feeling Joe gets when he hooks a catfish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    But Wax, you still have not defined what "source" you mean. The BBT as it currently stands, regarding the source of our Universe, is not a TOE. It's a backward extrapolation of our current observations.
    if you could backward extrapolate baryonic particles, and what might be dark matter particles to a state before the big bang, and no matter how far back you went you might never see a unified source from which they both came...does that make sense?

    I find it a bit of a scary idea really.
    Last edited by WaxRubiks; 2018-Sep-30 at 06:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    if you could backward extrapolate baryonic particles, and what might be dark matter particles to a state before the big bang, and no matter how far back you went you might never see a unified source from which they both came...does that make sense?

    I find it a bit of a scary idea really.
    There is no evidence at all that one part of the Universe has a separate origin than any other part of the Universe, so no need to be scared.
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    as for uniting GR and QM, my guess is that they might be just replaced by a theory of the large and small, rather than those models being united in any real way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    as for uniting GR and QM, my guess is that they might be just replaced by a theory of the large and small, rather than those models being united in any real way.
    Well, that's a matter for scientists to deal with. But if the models we use so far are established mainstream science, IE they fit observations and make accurate predictions, then the models will merely need to be updated, not entirely replaced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    There is no evidence at all that one part of the Universe has a separate origin than any other part of the Universe, so no need to be scared.

    by perhaps dodgy analogy is that you might have a fruitcake in your possession and the superpower ability to trace all the ingredients back to their origin, and so you get back to the big bang, or maybe the kitchen of the big bake, but go back further and the sultanas come from a different source to the wheat grain, and the sugar cane plantation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    by perhaps dodgy analogy is that you might have a fruitcake in your possession and the superpower ability to trace all the ingredients back to their origin, and so you get back to the big bang, or maybe the kitchen of the big bake, but go back further and the sultanas come from a different source to the wheat grain, and the sugar cane plantation...
    Not really an applicable analogy at all, because the baking is not actually an origin. If your "superpowers" tell you that it is, you need better superpowers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Not really an applicable analogy at all, because the baking is not actually an origin. If your "superpowers" tell you that it is, you need better superpowers.
    we don't know that the big bang is the first origin of the universe either...I gather science isn't decided on that, only that we trace back the universe to a hot and dense state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    we don't know that the big bang is the first origin of the universe either...I gather science isn't decided on that, only that we trace back the universe to a hot and dense state.
    We have no evidence that anything existed before that, no. But if BB was, as our calculations suggest, the origin of time, it is then impossible for anything to have come "before", since there's no before.

    All science knows is what is supported by the evidence. There's only evidence of one origin for the entirety of existence. Including dark matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    We have no evidence that anything existed before that, no. But if BB was, as our calculations suggest, the origin of time, it is then impossible for anything to have come "before", since there's no before.

    All science knows is what is supported by the evidence. There's only evidence of one origin for the entirety of existence. Including dark matter.
    what evidence is there that the big bang was the origin of time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    what evidence is there that the big bang was the origin of time?
    I'm not qualified to explain that, but here's a basic rundown: http://www.exactlywhatistime.com/phy...-the-big-bang/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I'm not qualified to explain that, but here's a basic rundown: http://www.exactlywhatistime.com/phy...-the-big-bang/
    ok.
    The general view of physicists is that time started at a specific point about 13.8 billion years ago with the Big Bang, when the entire universe suddenly expanded out of an infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity, a point where the laws of physics as we understand them simply break down. This can be considered the “birth” of the universe, and the beginning of time as we know it. Before the Big Bang, there just was no space or time, and you cannot go further back in time than the Big Bang, in much the same way as you cannot go any further north than the North Pole.
    don't the known laws of physics break down 'long' before you get that far back?

    I think it makes sense only to extrapolate back to that point...anything further back simply can't be assumed, I would think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    ok.


    don't the known laws of physics break down 'long' before you get that far back?

    I think it makes sense only to extrapolate back to that point...anything further back simply can't be assumed, I would think.
    I'm not a physicist, so I can't answer that.
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