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Thread: Clev's military Sci Fi thread

  1. #61
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    The Moon would then be covered with entire buildings flown up from Earth to serve as headquarters, vehicle shelters, buried missile/laser facilities, etc. Pennies per pound means portions of ICBM bases could go up.

    And Trojan points L4 and L5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    The Moon would then be covered with entire buildings flown up from Earth to serve as headquarters, vehicle shelters, buried missile/laser facilities, etc. Pennies per pound means portions of ICBM bases could go up.

    And Trojan points L4 and L5.
    The focus is on the convoy getting ready to be built getting ready to move out, not on the local defenses.

    OK, to give it some limits, assume say, 100 ton loads per launch. Modular construction, assembled in orbit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    I remember seeing the credits list of some World War II drama, with King George V listed as a character, though I didn't recall seeing any royalty in the film. I guess this was the Captain of the ship so named.
    I wonder if that is where Battlestar Galatica got the idea to call the captain "Galactic, Actual" on the radio? It seems you can hear the comma. I thought that was cool.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I wonder if that is where Battlestar Galatica got the idea to call the captain "Galactic, Actual" on the radio? It seems you can hear the comma. I thought that was cool.
    NewBSG was basically the US Navy IN SPACE!
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Isn't this sort of the premise of some Japanese anime ... you need a warship in space so take an old battleship/aircraft carrier, make it air (space) tight, add engines, and launch it?
    Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers.
    The greatest journey of all time, for all to see
    Every mission makes our dreams reality
    And our destiny begins with you and me
    Through all space and time, the achievement of mankind
    As we sail the sea of discovery, on heroes’ wings we fly!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    I remember seeing the credits list of some World War II drama, with King George V listed as a character, though I didn't recall seeing any royalty in the film. I guess this was the Captain of the ship so named.
    That seems very odd to me. You'd normally just call the person "Captain [whatever]", I think. If memory serves, the captain was addressed by the name of the ship only under certain circumstances - when coming aboard, when being summoned from the ship for a meeting with a more senior officer - it reflects the captain's role as representing the ship, rather than as an individual.
    That said, George V would have had trouble showing up during World War II, on account of being dead.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers.
    I vaguely remember the cartoon from childhood. They made a live-action movie of it a few years ago, I saw the English dub.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    <snip>
    Assuming wartime efforts, how quickly do you think we'd be able to put together, say, the extraterrestrial equivalent of a wet Navy carrier group starting tomorrow? That is, converting existing industries and construction methods?
    I think the US entry into WWII would be a good example (and honestly, I don't think 70 years of technology has radically changed that). I would say it easily would take a year or more. You can't just start building stuff - you need blueprints, you need the logistics to get the stuff you need to the place that is going to build it, you need to train or hire the workers, etc., etc. Two years is probably more realistic.

    I found this interesting account of the WWII effort.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    I remember seeing the credits list of some World War II drama, with King George V listed as a character, though I didn't recall seeing any royalty in the film. I guess this was the Captain of the ship so named.
    Well George IV is credited in the Memphis Belle documentary. Perhaps that is what you saw?

    There was also a documentary called Royal Family at War based on the diary of George IV.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I think the US entry into WWII would be a good example (and honestly, I don't think 70 years of technology has radically changed that). I would say it easily would take a year or more. You can't just start building stuff - you need blueprints, you need the logistics to get the stuff you need to the place that is going to build it, you need to train or hire the workers, etc., etc. Two years is probably more realistic.

    I found this interesting account of the WWII effort.
    Well, I'm not a historian, or knowledgeable about defense industries. But it seems to me like we are far more industrialized, our current industries more flexible in output, and have a heck of a lot more educated and technically trained people, than were available in 1941. Weren't we transitioning from a mostly-agricultural country to a mechanized one at the time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    Well George IV is credited in the Memphis Belle documentary. Perhaps that is what you saw?

    There was also a documentary called Royal Family at War based on the diary of George IV.
    George IV who ruled from 1820-1830? Or George VI, who ruled during the Second World War?

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  12. #72
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    Roman typo. Should have been VI. And I’m sure there’s a joke in there somewhere but I’m too lazy right now to construct one.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Well, I'm not a historian, or knowledgeable about defense industries. But it seems to me like we are far more industrialized, our current industries more flexible in output, and have a heck of a lot more educated and technically trained people, than were available in 1941. Weren't we transitioning from a mostly-agricultural country to a mechanized one at the time?
    I work in industry, have my entire career (some of it has even been related to defense, though not directly) and I would completely disagree. I have been involved in a variety of capital projects (big equipment installations) and it takes time to get all the necessary work done.

    Assuming your spacecraft are going to be built in current factories, those factories are currently set up for other products. Going back to the WWII example, automobile plants were set-up to make civilian vehicles. Sure, they can be retooled to make military vehicles, but you have to take the time to do the retooling. And that is a relatively easy conversion. Making airplanes or spacecraft is very different. And what about all those current orders for autos; are you just ordering them to stop what they are doing? Are you going to nationalize the factories? You'll have to pass the laws to do so.

    Maybe you can get Trebuchet interested in this thread and he can give some insight into how quickly Big Aircraft Company can switch from making 767s to making F/A-18s, or even if they can be made on the same line.

    And that all assumes that our current factories and technologies can build these spacecraft. If you are actually going to have to build new factories, that's going to take even more time.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I work in industry, have my entire career (some of it has even been related to defense, though not directly) and I would completely disagree. I have been involved in a variety of capital projects (big equipment installations) and it takes time to get all the necessary work done.
    As I said, I have no real knowledge of how that works, so I'll follow your lead.
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    I managed to see the credits to the 1962 film Sink the Bismarck, and I'm pretty sure this is what I remembered. Now, I haven't seen the film in decades.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Commander in Chief (King George V)", well, of course the King would be the C-in-C, right?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Don't know what I made of all the other Captains there, but maybe this will be of interest for this topic.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #76
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    The reference is to HMS King George V, which was the flagship during the engagement with the Bismark. Michael Hordern played Admiral Sir John Tovey (Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet) who was accommodated aboard the flagship. Nothing to do with the person King George V, who had been dead for some years.

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    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2018-Oct-08 at 09:44 PM.
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  17. #77
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    Forgot to add launch rate! Say, turnaround every four hours? 600 tons a day.
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  18. #78
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    In your scenario, do we know how to build space warships, or will there be some R&D involved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geonuc View Post
    In your scenario, do we know how to build space warships, or will there be some R&D involved?
    Mostly from scratch. We do have some alien advice for engines and a badly damaged enemy ship wreck to study. Our alien allies had some prior communication with a Soviet Cosmonaut since the 1950s.
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  20. #80
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    We could start building something in a couple years, but I don't see what we could possibly do in terms of warships and weapon systems that would stand a chance of being effective against an enemy that presumably isn't scrambling to adapt systems designed for point-blank range atmospheric use. Our weapons would either be uselessly short-ranged, hopelessly vulnerable to countermeasures we know nothing about, or just plain unsuited to the targets they encounter.

    Perhaps due to an extreme advantage in proximity we could build transports and deliver a meaningful amount of supplies. Even including the ships themselves, feedstock for an alien fleet's manufacturing platforms to turn into something more lethal. Perhaps the crews are the most valuable contribution, or all that's needed is for humanity to participate in some form.

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    Footfall might be a good source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footfall

    Quite enjoyed it and some of the ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    We could start building something in a couple years, but I don't see what we could possibly do in terms of warships and weapon systems that would stand a chance of being effective against an enemy that presumably isn't scrambling to adapt systems designed for point-blank range atmospheric use. Our weapons would either be uselessly short-ranged, hopelessly vulnerable to countermeasures we know nothing about, or just plain unsuited to the targets they encounter.

    Perhaps due to an extreme advantage in proximity we could build transports and deliver a meaningful amount of supplies. Even including the ships themselves, feedstock for an alien fleet's manufacturing platforms to turn into something more lethal. Perhaps the crews are the most valuable contribution, or all that's needed is for humanity to participate in some form.
    That's actually pretty useful, thanks.

    So. New plot. We fix/crew their ships and provide troops and fuel, and presumably add human life support modules. The allies provide engines and arms. That fits pretty well with the timeline and scenario I'd started with.

    The aliens basically use us as their mercenaries, or Roman Auxilia. So we are the Proud Warrior Race in this setting. We're the Klingons!
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-09 at 03:55 AM. Reason: corrected my own misinterpretation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    That's actually pretty useful, thanks.

    So. New plot. We fix/crew their ships and provide troops and fuel, and presumably add human life support modules. The allies provide engines and arms. That fits pretty well with the timeline and scenario I'd started with.

    The aliens basically use us as their mercenaries, or Roman Auxilia. So we are the Proud Warrior Race in this setting. We're the Klingons!
    In that case the Posleen War series by John Ringo would be of some relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozduck View Post
    In that case the Posleen War series by John Ringo would be of some relevance.
    Ringo is the last writer I'd take as an example of anything admirable or worthy of emulation.

    If I were to do so, I'd much rather look to Saberhagen's Berserkers, where violent nature is humanity's terrible, self destructive burden, an instinct to be borne reluctantly and only where necessary.
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    Think I've got it.

    There will be no rank of Captain. The Captain is the officer in command of a vessel.

    The O6 rank will be either Executor, or Overcommander. But if one such officer commands a vessel, and you call them by that rank name instead of Captain, you may find themselves invited to inspect the nearest airlock, inside and out.

    Off ship, you use their rank. On board, it's a deadly insult. Visiting officers are addressed by rank only.
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  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post

    Seems like gender-neutral forms of address for more senior and more junior ranks, but avoiding the male defaults of "Sir" and "Mister", might be a good thing in a space navy. Including coming up with a workable plural form.
    Just an interesting aside, but in Japanese, you would say, Yes, captain,” with no honorific like “san.” So for either gender, when we talk to our manager, we just say, “yes kacho.”


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  27. #87
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    It seems to me that if humanity were going to be useful at providing spacecraft and other technological supplies usable in an environment based on advanced alien technology, then the aliens would have to provide large databases of information about equipment design and construction, including how to construct the precursor toolsets. Creating the tools to create the tools, etc. would not a minor project and would be highly disruptive to current supply chains and economics. Also, their capabilities would have to be far in advance of our own just for them to be able to get here, not to mention being able to wage war over interstellar distances.

    As others have mentioned, our biological resources would be the easiest to provide, whether for food (although it seems unlikely that their biology would be compatible) or as "cannon fodder."
    Selden

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Just an interesting aside, but in Japanese, you would say, Yes, captain,” with no honorific like “san.” So for either gender, when we talk to our manager, we just say, “yes kacho.”
    Aye-aye, Cap'n!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    That's actually pretty useful, thanks.

    So. New plot. We fix/crew their ships and provide troops and fuel, and presumably add human life support modules. The allies provide engines and arms. That fits pretty well with the timeline and scenario I'd started with.

    The aliens basically use us as their mercenaries, or Roman Auxilia. So we are the Proud Warrior Race in this setting. We're the Klingons!
    I like that better - avoids a Manhattan Project level of R&D necessary to figure out first what to build and then how to build it, even before re-tooling industry to actually build it.

    I think in this scenario, humanity could effectively crew an alien spaceship in less than a year, assuming the technology is not completely alien. There would be considerable battle losses in the short term until we figured out proper battle tactics, though. I assume the aliens would be useful in that regard as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geonuc View Post
    I think in this scenario, humanity could effectively crew an alien spaceship in less than a year, assuming the technology is not completely alien.
    Buckaroo Banzai [switching places at alien spacecraft controls with another alien]: John Parker, take this wheel. Just... just hold on, that's good. It flies like a truck.

    John Parker: Good. {pause} What is a truck?
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
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