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Thread: Clev's military Sci Fi thread

  1. #91
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    And the winner is, Executor. "One who gets it done".
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by selden View Post
    Also, their capabilities would have to be far in advance of our own just for them to be able to get here, not to mention being able to wage war over interstellar distances.
    They got here through a wormhole network that predates the existence of both our species. Their antigravity likewise, is an artifact they "inherit" from an even more advanced civilization.

    Their space travel experience is still in advance of ours, but not to independent interstellar levels. Mostly, they just have the advantage of easy access to space.

    ADDED: And mature extraplanetary transport, mining and manufacturing.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-09 at 06:33 PM.
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  3. #93
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    As opposed to Executioner, "One who does 'em in."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    As opposed to Executioner, "One who does 'em in."
    Both hold the power of life and death over their charges.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  5. #95
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    So now we move on to armaments. What might Earthlings rustle up or modify for warship-borne space weapons in 1 year?
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-09 at 08:12 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So now we move on to armaments. What might Earthlings rustle up or modify for warship-borne space weapons in 1 year?
    What exactly are those plucky Earthling rascals shooting at?
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
    — Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883)

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So now we move on to armaments. What might Earthlings rustle up or modify for warship-borne space weapons in 1 year?
    Well, going with the Footfall example that was suggested, they used nuclear explosion pumped x-ray lasers.
    Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    What exactly are those plucky Earthling rascals shooting at?
    We aren't sure what we'll be walking into. We know the enemy has large lasers and nuclear missiles. We don't know if any battleships are hanging around the other side of the wormhole.


    They have the same antigravity tech as the Allies, so they can have big ships bristling with weapons. But in flight, spaceships still obey the rocket equation, so they are not fortresses.

    Beyond that, I'll adapt things as necessary.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Well, going with the Footfall example that was suggested, they used nuclear explosion pumped x-ray lasers.
    Do we have those handy?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  10. #100
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    Rail guns. Missiles, conventional or nuke.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
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  11. #101
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    We'll need to test cooling systems and the like for all guns; rail, coil, and combustive.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  12. #102
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    The humans had something they were working on....

    Next section is from an old fanfic I wrote over a decade ago, you are welcome to it, no copyrights. Idea is based on the GDW Traveller game's starship weaponry, the spinal mount meson guns.

    ================

    CLASSIFIED

    CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY


    ACCESS NUMBER: SJJS 26939-848BB0116-9A

    PART TWO A: MINUTES OF INTERAGENCY UPDATES


    RAINBOW ARC OPERATIONS: ABSTRACT, TEXT & APPENDICES

    ABSTRACT
    Tactical and strategic directed-energy weapons were first employed at the time of Archimedes, who is believed to have developed a multipart solar mirror for the defense of Syracuse (c. 213-212 B.C.). In modern times, lasers and particle beams form the backbone of directed energy research. Certain speculations in science fiction are of interest. The matter-transparent particle beam (a.k.a. MTPB or “meson gun”) was recognized as a theoretical possibility after 1947, with the discovery of the meson subatomic particle. Exploration of the MTPB as a defensive system was begun in 1983 as a part of the Strategic Defense Initiative. Originally investigated as one of many particle-beam anti-ballistic missile weapons, the MTPB was dropped following then-insurmountable engineering difficulties and failure to create a coherent timed-decay meson stream using existing accelerators. The MTPB was revitalized with the accidental 1991 discovery of “Methuselah mesons” (decay at .2-.3 seconds) at Los Alamos (PROJECT HEIMDALL), followed by construction of the fixed-base BIFROST IV test model MTPB in 1993. Research has continued at Los Alamos at a rapid pace supported by Congressional oversight committees, as the discovery of M-mesons by foreign powers is only a matter of time. Current trends (PROJECT RAINBOW ARC: AISR) involve development and construction of very large, deeply buried, three-axis (spherical) rotating weapons located in the western inland continental United States, supported by space-based GPS targeting, capable of irradiating any targeted region on Earth or in high orbital space to lethal degrees within 2.6 seconds of a firing command. One MTPB battery of three weapons each will become operational at Warren AFB WY by 1st Q 2007, with a second battery projected to become operational at Minot AFB ND by 4th Q 2007 and a third battery at Malmstrom AFB MT by the end of 4th Q 2008. An advanced system upgrade (radiation armoring) is already anticipated c. 2010-2011 with the possible addition of up to six more batteries. Political consequences of this project are anticipated to be severe in international circles, as RAINBOW ARC renders obsolete the Cold War doctrine of triune nuclear delivery (land-based ICBMs, bomber-based cruise missiles, submarine-based ICBMs). The new paradigm is instantaneous command-to-target timing against which no defense whatsoever exists except a surprise first strike against all existing enemy MTPB batteries or the command structures directing them. The logical conclusions are inescapable and must be acted upon with dispatch.


    TABLE OF CONTENTS:

    I. A HISTORY OF DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS, ANCIENT-MODERN

    II. MATTER-TRANSPARENT PARTICLE BEAMS, RECENT HISTORY (PROJECT CANOPUS (SDI), PROJECTS HEIMDALL & BIFROST)

    III. PROJECT RAINBOW ARC
    A. HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT
    B. CURRENT STATUS: LOS ALAMOS PROTO-BATTERY
    C. AISR: ASYMMETRICAL IMMEDIATE STRATEGIC RESPONSE
    D. FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS

    IV. POLITICAL PROJECTIONS AND CONCLUSIONS


    APPENDICES:

    I. PARTICLE PHYSICS (BASIC THEORY/TABLES)

    II. SDI ABM PARTICLE ACCELERATORS (MODELS/TECHNICAL DATA)

    III. PROJECT HEIMDALL (TECHNICAL DATA)

    IV. M-MESON ANALYSIS AND BEHAVIOR (BASIC THEORY/TABLES)

    V. BIFROST IV MTPB TEST DEVICE (TECHNICAL DATA)

    VI. RADIATION EFFECTS FROM M-MESON DECAY (TECHNICAL DATA)
    A. BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS
    B. ELECTRONICS/COMPUTER SYSTEMS DAMAGE
    C. RESIDUAL RADIATION IN STRUCTURES & LANDFORMS

    VII. PROJECT RAINBOW ARC (TECHNICAL DATA)

    VIII. AISR BATTERIES UNDER CONSTRUCTION (MAPS/DIAGRAMS)
    A. F. E. WARREN AFB, WYOMING
    B. MINOT AFB, NORTH DAKOTA
    C. MALMSTROM AFB, MONTANA

    IX. PROJECTED MTPB BATTERIES AFTER 2010, US (MAPS)

    X. SCHEDULED PHASE-OUT OF CURRENT NUCLEAR FORCES

    PAGE 1 OF 481 PAGES

    CLASSIFIED
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
    — Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883)

  13. #103
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    Giving my characters an unstoppable death ray kinda removes the challenge from my plotline.

    ADDED: But I appreciate the gift. Thank you.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-09 at 11:37 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  14. #104
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    OK, that covers the warships. And if I can do that, I can do a big troop transport.

    On to the Space Marines!
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  15. #105
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    Idea is still free to a good home. Housebroken and everything.
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
    — Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883)

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    Idea is still free to a good home. Housebroken and everything.
    Has your ray gun had all its shots?

    (See what I did there?)
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Has your ray gun had all its shots?

    (See what I did there?)
    My response is still being processed. It will be ready for shipment in the next 3-5 weeks, so be ready.
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
    — Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883)

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    We'll need to test cooling systems and the like for all guns; rail, coil, and combustive.
    In Footfall they used ice. A byproduct was steam used for directional control.
    Measure once, cut twice. Practice makes perfect.
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  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Well, I'm not a historian, or knowledgeable about defense industries. But it seems to me like we are far more industrialized, our current industries more flexible in output, and have a heck of a lot more educated and technically trained people, than were available in 1941. Weren't we transitioning from a mostly-agricultural country to a mechanized one at the time?
    (bolding mine)

    Since Swift's example refers to the US, I'll assume that's who the "we" is in the last sentence. In that case, the description above sounds more like 1841 than 1941.

    In 1940, the proportion of the US workforce engaged in agriculture was something like 18%. Recovery from the depression was proceeding, but the great shift in war time was not from agriculture to industry, but from industry designed to serve peacetime needs to industry designed to serve wartime needs; for example, by early 1942, all civilian automobile production was stopped, and the factories converted over to military production.

    Although still not completely recovered from the depression, the United States at the beginning of the second world war was a massive industrial power, which is how it was able to fight effectively. If it had been some big plantation economy, I don't think Germany and Japan would have worried too much about the Americans.

    Since the US during the war is just a basis for comparison here, with the question actually about how the whole world could respond today, there has certainly been a massive industrialisation in Asia since then. Does this translate into an ability to adapt more quickly? I think I'm going to side with Swift here. A large number of P-51 Mustangs were produced during the war, but would the larger pool of technical talent mean that F-35s could be produced in large quantities more quickly today? Maybe they could produce more, but I'm not so sure they could do it faster. The more complicated the product, the more difficult the design, the more specialised equipment is needed to make it, etc. The first aeroplanes were built by people who were a step away from being hobbyists; no hobbyist is going to build an F-35.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    In Footfall they used ice. A byproduct was steam used for directional control.
    I was concerned that applying coolant to a just fired rail gun might crack it, or warp it, or otherwise ruin it as a rail gun.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  21. #111
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    Hull layers: Thin layer of a heat resistant iron alloy for magnetic boots anchoring. Whipple shields for small debris. Thick graphite spaced armor, possibly including a layer of neutron reflector. Anti-spall layer. Water/ice tankage and pumping. Inner pressure hulls.

    ADDED: Faraday cages for electronics?
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-10 at 05:54 AM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullstop View Post
    Since Swift's example refers to the US, I'll assume that's who the "we" is in the last sentence. In that case, the description above sounds more like 1841 than 1941.
    Oops! Yeah, I meant the US.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    They got here through a wormhole network that predates the existence of both our species. Their antigravity likewise, is an artifact they "inherit" from an even more advanced civilization.

    Their space travel experience is still in advance of ours, but not to independent interstellar levels. Mostly, they just have the advantage of easy access to space.

    ADDED: And mature extraplanetary transport, mining and manufacturing.
    This suggests that they might also have access to libraries of information from predecessor civilizations, perhaps with that access mediated by librarian societies. The availability of blueprints for the manufacture of various technologies (including weapons, pre-trained neural networks, etc) would be of strategic importance to the various competing organizations.
    Selden

  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by selden View Post
    This suggests that they might also have access to libraries of information from predecessor civilizations, perhaps with that access mediated by librarian societies. The availability of blueprints for the manufacture of various technologies (including weapons, pre-trained neural networks, etc) would be of strategic importance to the various competing organizations.
    They basically bribed us with the promise of technology. Their own, and what they're reverse engineered from found items, or stolen from the enemy.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-10 at 12:57 PM.
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  25. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Do we have those handy?
    No, it's been something that's we've started working on a couple times, but never developed. It would only work outside of an atmosphere, so it has to be space based. But it's sufficiently plausible to get used in a science fiction story.
    Last edited by Grey; 2018-Oct-10 at 01:36 PM.
    Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    No, it's been something that's we've started working on a couple times, but never developed. It would only work outside of an atmosphere, so it has to be space based. But it's sufficiently plausible to get used in a science fiction story.
    But could it plausibly be cobbled up and made reliable and accurate enough for lives to depend on it, in the time frame described?

    Its use in Footfall was as a desperate try-anything on a one-shot suicide mission. Earth had literally nothing left to lose to the point where we nuked ourselves to launch that weapon.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Hull layers: Thin layer of a heat resistant iron alloy for magnetic boots anchoring. Whipple shields for small debris. Thick graphite spaced armor, possibly including a layer of neutron reflector. Anti-spall layer. Water/ice tankage and pumping. Inner pressure hulls.

    ADDED: Faraday cages for electronics?
    Instead of just graphite, should I throw in, say, some tungsten steel plates? Graphite is good against lasers but poor versus impacts.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    The reference is to HMS King George V, which was the flagship during the engagement with the Bismark. Michael Hordern played Admiral Sir John Tovey (Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet) who was accommodated aboard the flagship. Nothing to do with the person King George V, who had been dead for some years.

    Grant Hutchison

    Also note that Tovey was aboard KGV but wasn't the captain of the ship and although he was C in C Home Fleet he couldn't give any direct orders as to the running of the ship.
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  29. #119
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    Commandos in SPACE!

    What sort of training and gear would be required for armed combat in space?

    Current space suit requirements mean aiming a rifle would be difficult. Shooting and moving in freefall, low gravity, EVA, and spin will require a good deal of practice. Moving through say, a disabled ship or station, could mean squeezing through places hard enough to maneuver in wearing shirtsleeves.

    What are some possible solutions? And what additional problems require solutions?
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-10 at 08:56 PM.
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  30. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    What sort of training and gear would be required for armed combat in space?

    Current space suit requirements mean aiming a rifle would be difficult.
    Only if you're locked in to the "squinting down the barrel" paradigm. "Smart" targeting systems are already in development and early testing for terrestrial combatants, so I think it's reasonable to assume that future forces will have more advanced versions. We might see VR or AR systems built in to helmets that integrate with sensor-equipped weapons that feed targeting data to the user. Or how about slew-able weapons built in to the suit that are slaved to the operator's eye position?

    Shooting and moving in freefall, low gravity, EVA, and spin will require a good deal of practice.
    ...and unless one is firing (nearly) recoiless weapons, it would require system(s) and/or techniques that manage conservation of momentum.
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