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Thread: Women's self-defense

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Women's self-defense

    I had not thought that the "Me too" was we too, thus thee too; is it as bad across the pond as here?

    The news competition to garner viewer attention given so many "news" channels these days won't hesitate to grab negative news and then spice it with their excessive hyperbole and, too often, erroneous spin. Negative news sales, but what is true for a very few must be understood for the whole. Lightning strikes can kill, for instance, but learning what to do in such events is about all that is necessary to have good reason not to be frightened of them. [Golfer Lee Trevino said he would carry a 1 iron since "even God can't hit a 1 iron".] I hope the youngsters can get their head around the bigger picture, as well as learn the important things to consider to avoid bad circumstances.
    Last edited by George; 2018-Oct-05 at 05:16 PM.
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    Lightning is a little more uncommon. And women do learn how to protect themselves, just as if assault were a force of nature instead of a conscious act by other people. Yet they get assaulted anyway, because the only way to protect yourself against the most common form of assault is to not be close to any men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    And women do learn how to protect themselves, just as if assault were a force of nature instead of a conscious act by other people. Yet they get assaulted anyway, because the only way to protect yourself against the most common form of assault is to not be close to any men.
    As the father of an adult daughter... yes, this true, and I curse this truth with every breath.
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Lightning is a little more uncommon. And women do learn how to protect themselves, just as if assault were a force of nature instead of a conscious act by other people. Yet they get assaulted anyway, because the only way to protect yourself against the most common form of assault is to not be close to any men.
    Lesbians never assault other women? That's not what the statistics say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Lesbians never assault other women? That's not what the statistics say.
    The phrase was "the most common form of assault". We have a lot of statistics.
    Here's a recent study in two New York City campuses, for instance:
    Information about the gender of the perpetrator for different gender and sexual orientation groups was available for a subset of incidents (336/997). Among these events, 98.4% (3/184) of the heterosexual women indicated the perpetrator was a man, while 97.1% (33/34) of the bisexual women, 75% (3/4) of the homosexual women, and 88.9% (24/27) of the other sexual identity women indicated it was a man.
    Grant Hutchison
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    Fair enough.

    If the day comes that I'm stabbed to death, I'll find comfort because I wasn't shot.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Fair enough.

    If the day comes that I'm stabbed to death, I'll find comfort because I wasn't shot.
    Bit of a false dichotomy there. The ideal outcome is to be neither stabbed nor shot. If half the people in the world owned knives, and the other half owned guns, and if shooting accounted for 97% of your risk of violent death (with stabbing accounting for the other 3%), then your safety could be greatly improved by avoiding all people who own guns, and dealing only with people who own knives. You'd reduce your risk of violent death 33-fold.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Fair enough.

    If the day comes that I'm stabbed to death, I'll find comfort because I wasn't shot.
    Why are you fighting this ?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Yet they get assaulted anyway, because the only way to protect yourself against the most common form of assault is to not be close to any men.
    That is surely true, but I think that most women do not want to distance themselves from all men, because itís not very practical, and there are men that they like. Avoiding the bad subset is the issue. In some countries like Japan, there are train cars reserved for women, which is helpful but obviously it just solves a subset of the problem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    That is surely true, but I think that most women do not want to distance themselves from all men, because it’s not very practical, and there are men that they like.
    I think that was Gillianren's point - that the simplest thing women could do to make a massive change to their safety is generally impractical and undesirable - staying away from all men, all the time. It also treats men as if they're some kind of mindless natural hazard, like lightning, that can only be avoided and not modified. Not an ideal societal response, but it's the sort of advice (in less extreme formulations) that women receive all the time. The reserved train cars being a case in point, perhaps.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    That is surely true, but I think that most women do not want to distance themselves from all men, because it’s not very practical, and there are men that they like. Avoiding the bad subset is the issue. In some countries like Japan, there are train cars reserved for women, which is helpful but obviously it just solves a subset of the problem.


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    The bad ones are not labeled, or obvious. Most assaults come from someone they already know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Why are you fighting this ?
    Fighting the idea of avoiding men to achieve more safety? I dunno, because it's really sexist?

    Let's all avoid groups of people based upon their small minority bad apples. That's healthy.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Fighting the idea of avoiding men to achieve more safety? I dunno, because it's really sexist?

    Let's all avoid groups of people based upon their small minority bad apples. That's healthy.
    It was not presented as a good idea!! I think you mistook sarcastic exaggeration for serious suggestion.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-07 at 03:11 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Fighting the idea of avoiding men to achieve more safety? I dunno, because it's really sexist?

    Let's all avoid groups of people based upon their small minority bad apples. That's healthy.
    Well, there are all sorts of good reasons for me not to come along and explain Gillianren's post for her.
    But I believe she said exactly the opposite of what you're saying, and I honestly can't see how you could interpret it the way you have.

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  15. #15
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    Yeah, my point was that the advice women are given will only protect them against a minority of assaults, since it's all about protecting themselves from strangers. Women are in greater danger from men they know and trust than from strangers in dark alleys. Their trust could always turn out to be misplaced. However, they're blamed for their assaults--as if they weren't following basic advice about how to protect themselves from a force of nature. No one seriously suggests that women isolate themselves completely from men, because that's ludicrous. But it would keep them a lot safer than some of the other advice I've been given, which assumes stranger assault. Yes, it would keep them away from a lot of men who aren't rapists, too, since the majority of men aren't rapists. But when your trust so often turns out to be misplaced, how can you be sure?
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  16. #16
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    You can't be sure of anything when people are involved. Women need to know practical physical self defense for if Mr. "Friend" isn't what he seems.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    You can't be sure of anything when people are involved. Women need to know practical physical self defense for if Mr. "Friend" isn't what he seems.
    Again, making it the woman's responsibility to deal with the situation, rather than the man's not to create it in the first place.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    You can't be sure of anything when people are involved. Women need to know practical physical self defense for if Mr. "Friend" isn't what he seems.
    Why not just tell women to be armed at all times? Even more effective a plan.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Why not just tell women to be armed at all times? Even more effective a plan.
    Because that's not always an option? In numerous places even non-lethal self-defense weapons are outlawed.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Again, making it the woman's responsibility to deal with the situation, rather than the man's not to create it in the first place.

    Grant Hutchison
    Not their responsibility, but the smart thing to do. Because evil people can't be made to follow rules when they really don't want to.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Because that's not always an option? In numerous places even non-lethal self-defense weapons are outlawed.
    Exactly the major problem with your suggestion. It's not always practical to expect a woman to physically out-fight an aggressive man. Some women are athletic enough, most are not.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Not their responsibility, but the smart thing to do. Because evil people can't be made to follow rules when they really don't want to.
    So why make laws, then?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So why make laws, then?
    You're misunderstanding me. It's illegal to murder people, evil people still murder, they're punished after the fact, and the victim's still dead--so clearly the rule of "don't murder" didn't help them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    You're misunderstanding me. It's illegal to murder people, evil people still murder, they're punished after the fact, and the victim's still dead--so clearly the rule of "don't murder" didn't help them.
    So let me get this straight.

    ...No, I just can't get it straight. What are you saying, then?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Exactly the major problem with your suggestion. It's not always practical to expect a woman to physically out-fight an aggressive man. Some women are athletic enough, most are not.
    I'm not talking about conventional martial arts, but the kinds of things that are taught in women's self defense courses that cause disabling physical injury to an attacker and don't take much strength. Like jabbing them in the eyes, hitting their nose bone in an upward motion and other nasty stuff.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Not their responsibility, but the smart thing to do. Because evil people can't be made to follow rules when they really don't want to.
    This is, as Gillianren has pointed out, the wrong model. Most women are not assaulted in the outdoors by evil people who are consciously breaking societal rules. By far the commonest situation is that a person to whom they have given their trust escalates a friendly-to-intimate situation beyond the boundaries the woman has set. There are difficulties, emotional and physical, in applying conventional self-defence teaching in that setting. I know this for a fact. And in the aftermath, the "Why didn't you fight harder?" question only helps to shift the guilt on to the victim.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    I'm not talking about conventional martial arts, but the kinds of things that are taught in women's self defense courses that cause disabling physical injury to an attacker and don't take much strength. Like jabbing them in the eyes, hitting their nose bone in an upward motion and other nasty stuff.
    OK, so you are saying it's on women to look out for themselves.

    That only works as a small part of a greater strategy, like getting away to call police. But it's half a solution*. The emphasis needs to be on preventing the assaults in the first place by socializing men not to do it. And that's not going to be done by labelling the attackers as Just Evil and writing them off. It'll be in how they're raised and conditioned by parents and peers. That means changing the society.

    * And a generally ineffective one, to go by the statistics.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    We do socialize men to be decent people. What parents teach their kids that sexual assault is okay?

    Instruction doesn't take with everyone, and won't for as long as people have free will.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    We do socialize men to be decent people. What parents teach their kids that sexual assault is okay?
    Negligent ones who fail to mention it.

    And we largely socialize men to be macho, aggressive go-getters who never accept "defeat".
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    We do socialize men to be decent people. What parents teach their kids that sexual assault is okay?
    Again, wrong model. The people who carry out most sexual assaults haven't thought to themselves "Ooh, I fancy a bit of a sexual assault right now."

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

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