Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 160

Thread: Women's self-defense

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Again, wrong model. The people who carry out most sexual assaults haven't thought to themselves "Ooh, I fancy a bit of a sexual assault right now."

    Grant Hutchison
    Right. It's not so much teaching them to do it, it's about teaching them how to deal with having a caveman's instincts when you aren't a caveman and your object of desire is not an object. It's about responsibility.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  2. 2018-Oct-07, 08:03 PM

  3. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    30,500
    Only a handful of US states mandate teaching consent in sex ed. If you watch a lot of movies and TV shows, they're fairly negligent on the subject as well--"no" is not always taken to mean no. It's taken to mean "ask again later." Studies have shown that an alarming percentage of men will admit to being rapists if you don't frame what they do as rape. When women come forward, they're shamed for it and frequently told they're lying, despite the fact that false accusations of rape against a specific person are extremely rare. By all these facts, we do teach sexual assault.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    16,971
    While I understand why teaching (if it occurs) focuses on the binary aspect of consent / no consent, it worries me a little that this has become a mental focus for real people in the real world. As Sara Pascoe pointed out recently - folks, the minimum you should be aiming for is enthusiasm from your partner; if you're agonizing about whether or not consent is present, you're just plain doing it wrong.

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The beautiful north coast (Ohio)
    Posts
    48,144
    I've split these posts off of this thread in S&T.

    I don't particularly love the title I came up with, if anyone has a better suggestion, PM me or Report the post.

    Lastly, and most important, this is a very emotional topic. I expect everyone to demonstrate the highest levels of empathy and politeness. If not, actions will be taken, including infractions and thread closure.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    Not their responsibility, but the smart thing to do. Because evil people can't be made to follow rules when they really don't want to.
    1] Women getting better at defending themselves, and other forms of personal safety, has been bluntly - but accurately - described as a "I'm big and mean, go rape the NEXT woman" strategy. i.e. Philosophically, it is just an attempt to shift the violence to the next, less capable woman.

    2] The problem with "it would be smart for women to learn self defense" is that it's a rationalization - a way to let ourselves off the hook. As long as (anyone who is NOT subject to assault) know that the women "have a solution", we can be passive and go on with our lives - rather than address the actual problem - and get involved in actively working to fix it.

    This is why they are making a big thing of it, and refuse to be silenced. They're telling the world "This is NOT a WOMEN'S issue; this is a SOCIETAL issue. YOU are part of it."
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Oct-08 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    8,691
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    2] The problem with "it would be smart for women to learn self defense" is that it's a rationalization - a way to let ourselves off the hook.
    That's not true. I mean, it can be used as a rationalization, but it's not inherently one.

    Just like saying "It's smart to lock your doors when you're away from home" is not a rationalization of burglary. It's an acknowledgment of it.

    There have been evil people since before the dawn of history, and we've been trying to get them to stop being evil for just as long. There's no reason to believe that rape would be any different than any other evil act, as far as that goes.
    Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    There's no reason to believe that rape would be any different than any other evil act, as far as that goes.
    That's just flat out factually wrong. There are societies in the Western sphere where that's NOT the case, where violent and/or sexual crimes are way less commonplace. Societal pressure and upbringing make a big difference in statistical behavior.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Just like saying "It's smart to lock your doors when you're away from home" is not a rationalization of burglary. It's an acknowledgment of it.
    See my point 2. Simple acknowledgement of a problem will not do in this 21st century. 50% of the people you encounter every day must live with the risk of this kind of violence. It's not OK to put a band-aid in it (in the form of self-defense classes) while ignoring the source of that violence.

    Unlike a predator, a burglar is cut and dry a criminal. Sexual aggressors can get away with a lot these days. Imagine if, upon reporting a burglary, you were told "Was it really a burglary? I mean, burglars will be burglars. It's not fair to ruin their lives over it is it?"

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Imagine if, upon reporting a burglary, you were told "Was it really a burglary? I mean, burglars will be burglars. It's not fair to ruin their lives over it is it?"
    "Did you have your shades up so he could see into your house? Why do you have such tempting property anyway? You should have just bought better home security!"
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  11. #40
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    10,153
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Bit of a false dichotomy there. The ideal outcome is to be neither stabbed nor shot. If half the people in the world owned knives, and the other half owned guns, and if shooting accounted for 97% of your risk of violent death (with stabbing accounting for the other 3%), then your safety could be greatly improved by avoiding all people who own guns, and dealing only with people who own knives. You'd reduce your risk of violent death 33-fold.

    Grant Hutchison
    I think there’s also the assumption that women are assaulted by strangers. “Stranger danger” is massively over-emphasized for assaults in general.

    The Me Too movement is also about sexual assaults being perpetrated by men protected by privilege and personal power. Punching out or shooting Moonves or Weinstein would have resulted in the woman being arrested and prosecuted for assault because “he’d never do that and she’s just hysterically over-reacting.”

    Consider what happened in two well-publicized cases where women came forward with accusations against nominees during confirmation hearings before the US Senate: the accusers were basically accused of blatantly lying and were subject to massive calumny and death threats. When a body run by people who who ostensibly believe in law and order immediately decides somebody who is their own is above reproach and immune to accusation, it’s giving permission to every male to attack: they’re going to make sure she’s shut up.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



  12. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Clear Lake City, TX
    Posts
    12,232
    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    ... Consider what happened in two well-publicized cases where women came forward with accusations against nominees during confirmation hearings before the US Senate ...
    No, let's not. That gets us into a political discussion which quickly becomes a political argument and we will not go there.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
    Isaac Asimov

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.
    Doctor Who

    Moderation will be in purple.
    Rules for Posting to This Board

  13. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    16,971
    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    I think there’s also the assumption that women are assaulted by strangers. “Stranger danger” is massively over-emphasized for assaults in general.
    Yes, there's this mental model of a woman being attacked in a dark alley by a guy in a hoody with a knife, and I'm aware of self-defence classes based entirely on that model - which addresses only a small minority of assaults.

    Many men seem to be unaware how physically overwhelming they can be to a woman at close range. For me, it was brought home quite dramatically many years ago, when I was about twenty. I was visiting a good and profoundly platonic female friend one evening, and we were alone in her flat. For some reason now lost to me, there was a brief wresting match in which she ended up sitting astride me on the floor, pinning down my arms above my head.
    "Now I've got you," she said.
    "No you don't," I said.
    "So stand up then, if I haven't got you."
    So I stood up, while she tried to prevent me doing it. It seemed like fun, and we were certainly laughing at the start of it, but by the time I was on my feet (which didn't take long) she'd gone pale and looked a bit shaky, and I was immediately concerned that I'd hurt her.
    She assured me that she was fine, and then sort of patted me on the chest and said, "You're a good friend." But it took her a while to get back her usual cheery manner.
    And it took a while before we were able to talk about it thereafter. She'd had a sudden realization that this large man she had invited into her home, and with whom she'd been having a playful physical encounter, could pretty much do whatever he wanted, physically.

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    8,691
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    That's just flat out factually wrong. There are societies in the Western sphere where that's NOT the case, where violent and/or sexual crimes are way less commonplace. Societal pressure and upbringing make a big difference in statistical behavior.
    Fair enough. Can you give an example of another western society with a significantly lower rate of sexual assault than the US, and tell me which of their societal processes you think we should adopt?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    See my point 2. Simple acknowledgement of a problem will not do in this 21st century. 50% of the people you encounter every day must live with the risk of this kind of violence. It's not OK to put a band-aid in it (in the form of self-defense classes) while ignoring the source of that violence.
    But it's the "ignoring the source" that's the problem there, not the self-defense classes. I'm not going to tell my daughter not to learn to defend herself, because she "shouldn't" have to. She does have to. When we reach the point where she doesn't have to, nobody will be happier than I will be - but until then, I'm not going to allow her to be assaulted to prove some kind of larger point.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Unlike a predator, a burglar is cut and dry a criminal. Sexual aggressors can get away with a lot these days. Imagine if, upon reporting a burglary, you were told "Was it really a burglary? I mean, burglars will be burglars. It's not fair to ruin their lives over it is it?"
    Actually, that's exactly the response I would expect if I made an accusation of burglary without any objective physical evidence that a burglary had occurred, and especially if I apparently expected the person I accused to be punished for it.

    That, unfortunately, is an inherent difference between sexual assault and most other crimes. But if we throw out the presumption of innocence when it's inconvenient, then we don't really believe in it.

    EDIT: My penultimate paragraph is a little glib, and maybe gives a false impression. People who claim to have been assaulted, even though they have no evidence, deserve a much greater degree of compassion and understanding than someone who claims to have been burgled without evidence. But it doesn't extend to the point of treating the accused as guilty.
    Last edited by SeanF; 2018-Oct-09 at 01:55 PM.
    Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn

  15. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    16,971
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I'm not going to tell my daughter not to learn to defend herself, because she "shouldn't" have to. She does have to.
    I'm confident you and your daughter know a great deal more about self-defence than I do, but I know someone who found her self-defence training almost completely useless when she was the victim of an assault. She wasn't standing up, observing a threatening approach from ahead, or being grabbed from behind. She was horizontal, and the man was already at very close range. All her practice had been with the wrong model of attack.
    IIRC, she subsequently went off to learn Brazilian jiu jitsu, which has an emphasis on "ground fighting", which she felt was the closest she could get to what she had really needed.

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    8,691
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    I'm confident you and your daughter know a great deal more about self-defence than I do, but I know someone who found her self-defence training almost completely useless when she was the victim of an assault. She wasn't standing up, observing a threatening approach from ahead, or being grabbed from behind. She was horizontal, and the man was already at very close range. All her practice had been with the wrong model of attack.
    IIRC, she subsequently went off to learn Brazilian jiu jitsu, which has an emphasis on "ground fighting", which she felt was the closest she could get to what she had really needed.

    Grant Hutchison
    We do what we can. Past a certain point, you can only hope that you're never attacked in a way that you've not trained for, but it's always possible...
    Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn

  17. 2018-Oct-09, 02:22 PM
    Reason
    OP's request

  18. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    30,500
    And I'm physically disabled. Even if I were in great shape, I'd be easy to take out because of my health problems.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  19. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    16,971
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    We do what we can. Past a certain point, you can only hope that you're never attacked in a way that you've not trained for, but it's always possible...
    The concern she voiced (and this is a while ago, so training may have changed) was that the model of attack she trained for constitutes only about 10% of reported assaults on women (and probably a lesser proportion of unreported attacks).
    I'm not saying it's a bad thing for women to have an approach to dealing with those 10%, but it's all part of the mistaken model of "lurking evil-doers in the park" that allows (some of) us to not think about the major part of the problem.

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

  20. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Fair enough. Can you give an example of another western society with a significantly lower rate of sexual assault than the US, and tell me which of their societa processes you think we should adopt?
    Pretty much every western country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_s...ics#By_country

    (There is always, of course, the problem of unreported attacks.)


    As for suggesting useful changes to our society beyond what I and other posters already have, whole libraries have been written on the subject by people much better suited than me to determine such things. There's a lot to do, and no one magic bullet to make it all better.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  21. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    16,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    (There is always, of course, the problem of unreported attacks.)
    And the problem of different legal definitions.

    Grant Hutchison
    Blog

    Note:
    During life, we all develop attitudes and strategies to make our interactions with others more pleasant and useful. If I mention mine here, those comments can apply only to myself, my experiences and my situation. Such remarks cannot and should not be construed as dismissing, denigrating, devaluing or criticizing any different attitudes and strategies that other people have evolved as a result of their different situation and different experiences.

  22. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    30,500
    Sweden, for example, is said to have an extremely high rate of rape, but the difference is a broader definition of the term.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  23. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    7,143
    Isn’t this all part of a greater problem? Homo sapiens has made great technological progress, but none in morality. We still kill, rape, rob. In war, are we any better than the Romans, Huns, Crusaders? Look at WW I, WW II, Vietnam.... Look at the fascination with bloody tv thrillers, graphic violence in the movies, the violent playstation games played by children. None of the latter is conducive to sensibilty training towards others. It is not only a question of rape, but of domestic violence towards women and children.

  24. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Isn’t this all part of a greater problem? Homo sapiens has made great technological progress, but none in morality. We still kill, rape, rob. In war, are we any better than the Romans, Huns, Crusaders? Look at WW I, WW II, Vietnam.... Look at the fascination with bloody tv thrillers, graphic violence in the movies, the violent playstation games played by children. None of the latter is conducive to sensibilty training towards others. It is not only a question of rape, but of domestic violence towards women and children.
    We make moral progress; too slowly and less than we should, but let's not minimize it either. YES, we are better than Romans, Huns, and Crusaders, because most of us do recognize the rights and innate value of other people, if not fully and completely.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  25. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lugano, Switzerland
    Posts
    7,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    We make moral progress; too slowly and less than we should, but let's not minimize it either. YES, we are better than Romans, Huns, and Crusaders, because most of us do recognize the rights and innate value of other people, if not fully and completely.
    Really? Look at cage fighting, ufc, child prostitution in thailand. Writing about something is one thing, doing something about it is something else. There were decent Romans, yet they enjoyed the bloody games in the colesseum, just as people enjoy boxing and ufc tiday. The human race needs to be manipulated genetically to eliminate primal instincts.
    Last edited by gzhpcu; 2018-Oct-10 at 08:01 PM.

  26. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    12,365
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Isn’t this all part of a greater problem?
    Of course all human behavioral problems are ultimately traceable to the flawed nature of our species...but that's no reason to sidetrack a thread that has a topic focused on a particular subset of human problems. Please respect that focus.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. ó Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  27. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Really? Look at cage fighting, ufc, child prostitution in thailand. Writing about something is one thing, doing something about it is something else. There were decent Romans, yet they enjoyed the bloody games in the coleseum, just as people enjoy boxing and ufc tiday.
    If they enjoyed fights to the death they were not decent.

    And the sports you mention used to be to the death. Child prostitution used to be universal, openly socially acceptable and often fatal, instead of criminalized.

    And you have no idea what I do.
    Research history. Things were FAR worse in past centuries.

    ADDED: Oops, off topic. Sorry.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-10 at 08:06 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  28. #56
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    10,153
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    If they enjoyed fights to the death they were not decent.
    Is that a modern opinion or would that be an opinion of a Roman in, they, the 1st Century, CE?



    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post

    And the sports you mention used to be to the death. Child prostitution used to be universal, openly socially acceptable and often fatal, instead of criminalized.

    And you have no idea what I do.
    Research history. Things were FAR worse in past centuries.

    ADDED: Oops, off topic. Sorry.
    We were worse in the past; there is evidence to this effect. Slavery, torture, and capital punishment are deprecated in most democracies. Religious tolerance is also approaching the norm. Social norms and even religious definitions of morality change with time.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



  29. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    Deleted off topic
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  30. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    35,630
    There's a thread on violence in history here: https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...human-violence
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  31. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    30,500
    Until relatively recently, it wasn't considered possible to rape a spouse. Now, there are still people who believe that, but it certainly isn't legally true anymore. Heck, in some places, it isn't legally possible to rape a man because of definitions of rape, and we're changing that, too. Speaking as a parent, I certainly don't intend to throw up my hands and say, "Well, I can't teach my son not to rape!" We're already teaching the kids about consent. They aren't required to hug anyone they don't want to, for starters. Irene still isn't talking much, but sometimes, she'll say "Tickoo?" And then she gets tickled, until it's clear she doesn't want to be anymore, at which point I stop. They're allowed to control their own bodies--and not allowed to control anyone else's. They both get told when their sibling isn't happy with how they're interacting, now that Irene is old enough to understand other people's wishes.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  32. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF;246339|

    But it's the "ignoring the source" that's the problem there, not the self-defense classes. I'm not going to tell my daughter not to learn to defend herself, because she "shouldn't" have to. She does have to. When we reach the point where she doesn't have to, nobody will be happier than I will be - but until then, I'm not going to allow her to be assaulted to prove some kind of larger point.
    Right. And sending her to self-defense classes goes without saying. Literally: we don't need to discuss or debate it.

    What it does do (in general, not you specifically) is derail the conversation we as a society need to be having.
    .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •