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Thread: Women's self-defense

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    But it's the "ignoring the source" that's the problem there, not the self-defense classes. I'm not going to tell my daughter not to learn to defend herself, because she "shouldn't" have to. She does have to. When we reach the point where she doesn't have to, nobody will be happier than I will be - but until then, I'm not going to allow her to be assaulted to prove some kind of larger point.
    Literally no one ever suggested that your daughter should not learn self defense. That's a personal or family decision.

    We're saying that the causes of the problem are:

    1. Systemic,
    2. Societally enabled, and
    3. There are things that can be done to reduce the number of sexual assaults in the first place.

    And that that's where our focus* as a society should be.


    *Not our exclusive obsession. Not ignoring self defense as a mitigation factor.


    Having said that, we have to acknowledge that what you suggested:

    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    You can't be sure of anything when people are involved. Women need to know practical physical self defense for if Mr. "Friend" isn't what he seems.
    ...May be effective for your daughter but may not be possible or available for a lot of other women. Probably the majority.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-12 at 01:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Literally no one ever suggested that your daughter should not learn self defense. That's a personal or family decision.
    And notice that - except for her singular case - it does not address the problem at all - that of reducing the number of violent incidents.

    It simply deflects the violence - from a victim who is capable of defending herself - to the next victim, who is less capable.

    Great for Sean's family; worse for some other family. A zero sum game.
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Oct-12 at 03:13 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    It simply deflects the violence - from a victim who is capable of defending herself - to the next victim, who is less capable.

    Great for Sean's family; worse for some other family. A zero sum game.
    A zero sum game? Forgive me if Iíve missed a key detail up-thread but how is a more positive outcome for Seanís family more negative for the victim/family of a subsequent attack? Are you presuming that if the first is carried out, another wonít happen?
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    It simply deflects the violence - from a victim who is capable of defending herself - to the next victim, who is less capable.
    And in addition to what PetersCreek wrote, it's also possible that the bad experience of being hurt by an intended victim will encourage the person to be more careful about attacking people.
    As above, so below

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Right. And sending her to self-defense classes goes without saying. Literally: we don't need to discuss or debate it.
    It's the title of the bloody thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Literally no one ever suggested that your daughter should not learn self defense.
    Dave called it a "rationalization" and a "Band-Aid".

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    And notice that - except for her singular case - it does not address the problem at all - that of reducing the number of violent incidents.

    It simply deflects the violence - from a victim who is capable of defending herself - to the next victim, who is less capable.
    Yep. Just like door locks and visible security cameras. Except that, as others have pointed out, self-defense can actually prevent future attacks on others, depending on the nature of the defense.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Dave called it a "rationalization" and a "Band-Aid".
    Sometimes you need a band aid to stop bleeding. But it's a starting point, not a solution as your earlier post implied.

    ADDED: That was going too far, I retract that part of it.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-12 at 02:24 PM.
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  7. #67
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    OK Sean, I read Dave's post in question and my interpretation was that he said the rationalization presented by SkepticJ that "Well women should just learn to take care of themselves", was the band aid . Not that learning self defense was.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    OK Sean, I read Dave's post in question and my interpretation was that he said the rationalization presented by SkepticJ that "Well women should just learn to take care of themselves", was the band aid . Not that learning self defense was.
    I don't think it's fair to put the word "just" into SkepticJ's comments, and it's definitely not fair to put it into Dave's.

    He didn't call SkepticJ's statements a rationalization, he gave his own example - "it would be smart for women to learn self defense". There's no "just" or "only" or "simply" or anything similar in there.

    If Dave thinks that encouraging women to learn self-defense is proper and good but it can't end there, I'd have no objection at all. In fact, I'd agree whole-heartedly. But he hasn't said that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I don't think it's fair to put the word "just" into SkepticJ's comments, and it's definitely not fair to put it into Dave's.

    He didn't call SkepticJ's statements a rationalization, he gave his own example - "it would be smart for women to learn self defense". There's no "just" or "only" or "simply" or anything similar in there.

    If Dave thinks that encouraging women to learn self-defense is proper and good but it can't end there, I'd have no objection at all. In fact, I'd agree whole-heartedly. But he hasn't said that.
    I agree, I will tone down my responses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I agree, I will tone down my responses.
    Nothing's been wrong with your tone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Nothing's been wrong with your tone.
    Thank you. I will try to word my comments a little more thoughtfully.
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    As I pointed out, some of us can't practically defend ourselves. If any of my friends were determined, they'd know what to do to take me out. I have limited physical strength and several notable weak points.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    As I pointed out, some of us can't practically defend ourselves. If any of my friends were determined, they'd know what to do to take me out. I have limited physical strength and several notable weak points.
    I'd suggest a gun.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I'd suggest a gun.
    It is at this point that I feel the need to make a general advisement/warning: this topic has political entanglements and can inflame both passions and tempers. Tread carefully. Very carefully. Please.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I'd suggest a gun.
    Again, not for everyone. Not only because of politics or beliefs, but practical considerations. Cost, licensing, laws, safety concerns, proper training which also costs money, time to practice, it's not always a solution. Especially with the "usually a friend" caveat. Should you conceal carry at work? In your home? Asleep?

    ADDED: Example. In San Francisco it's illegal to purchase a handgun. A shotgun is not a workable substitute for social situations.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-12 at 05:26 PM.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Again, not for everyone.
    I know. That's why it was just a suggestion.
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    Also, having a gun means having a gun to lose. If a stronger or faster individual takes the gun from you, you (and others) become even less safe.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    For me, the key to women's safety is for me to be a good man. Everything has to start with me (as it does for everyone).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    For me, the key to women's safety is for me to be a good man. Everything has to start with me (as it does for everyone).
    Man in the mirror.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    It is at this point that I feel the need to make a general advisement/warning: this topic has political entanglements and can inflame both passions and tempers. Tread carefully. Very carefully. Please.
    OK, since that didn't work, I'll be more blunt: Drop the gun discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    OK, since that didn't work, I'll be more blunt: Drop the gun discussion.
    OK. Sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    It's the title of the bloody thread.
    Okay, you got me there.


    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Dave called it a "rationalization" and a "Band-Aid".
    Let me rephrase. Learning self-defense is definitely good for the individual - in this case - your daughter.

    I do feel concerned that many people (not you) use the idea as an excuse to stop looking at the problem.

    I think we've established that's what I was trying to say.


    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    If Dave thinks that encouraging women to learn self-defense is proper and good but it can't end there, I'd have no objection at all. In fact, I'd agree whole-heartedly. But he hasn't said that.
    It is definitely a good idea for individuals to learn self defense.

    What I was trying to say is that self defense is not a treatment for the problem of culturally-institutionalized violence and rape culture.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Let me rephrase. Learning self-defense is definitely good for the individual - in this case - your daughter.

    I do feel concerned that many people (not you) use the idea as an excuse to stop looking at the problem.

    I think we've established that's what I was trying to say.
    Agreed. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    What I was trying to say is that self defense is not a treatment for the problem of culturally-institutionalized violence and rape culture.
    I think it can be part of the treatment. An important, and - until the desire for violent crime itself is nearly eliminated - a necessary part.
    Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I think it can be part of the treatment. An important, and - until the desire for violent crime itself is nearly eliminated - a necessary part.
    What people are trying to get across is that the burden of treatment does not belong on the potential victims - what they do or don't do; it belongs squarely on the perpetrators of the violence.

    Predators will be only too happy to agree with you - that what we need is for the victims to do more to protect themselves.


    Predators will be happy to talk about self defense till the cows come home - shine the spotlight on the victims, by all means - because that means fewer people looking at the perps.
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Oct-13 at 04:20 AM.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I think it can be part of the treatment. An important, and - until the desire for violent crime itself is nearly eliminated - a necessary part.
    For your family under your circumstances, sure. But as we've all said, for many if not most women, the types of defensive actions taught in most women's self defense classes statistically aren't much good.

    ADDED: And frankly it's their call what others find necessary. (And TBF what they consider helpful, too. If self defense classes make someone feel safer or more confident, more power to 'em.)

    Either way, it's a separate subject from stopping the problem.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-13 at 05:23 AM.
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    Narrowly, the most important issue is situational awareness, however most sexual and many non-sexual assaults, as said repeatedly, are from acquaintances or in parties where being prepared for violence would remove all enjoyment or the workplace, where one would hope assault is not on the managers’ agendas.

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  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Predators will be only too happy to agree with you - that what we need is for the victims to do more to protect themselves.
    If that were the only option on the table, I might agree but interviews with incarcerated perpetrators indicate that the perceived preparedness of a potential target strongly influences victim selection. But I grant these interviews, as I remember them, were of a variety of offenders so I couldnít say how much the concept applies to sexual assaults by known assailants. I also couldnít discount it.

    I view personal safety, first and foremost, as a personal responsibility. In the moment, you may be the only person upon whom you can rely to help you. And it applies to far more situations other than sexual assaults.

    But itís not a panacea. Itís risk mitigation. One could argue that you canít really be safe, only safer. You can do everything right and still wind up on the losing side of things. So it canít be our sole responsibility, in my opinion. This is where collective preparedness and prevention come in. This is why it isnít an either/or proposition to me.

    Personal defense wonít be successful in every case. Collective prevention wonít be successful in every case. But in my experience, safety measures are most successful when they are layered. So I advocate for both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    the perceived preparedness of a potential target strongly influences victim selection.
    Precisely. The implication there is that it does nothing to decrease violence, just redirects it to the next, less capable, victim.

    And as long as there are less capable victims, the motives of predators are best served by encouraging any dialogue about violence to concentrate on shifting the target around, rather than concentrate on the predators themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    But it’s not a panacea. It’s risk mitigation. One could argue that you can’t really be safe, only safer.
    All well and good for the 'you' in that situation. It only mitigates your personal risk. It becomes 'somebody else's problem'.
    And (statistically) worse for those somebody elses less capable than 'you'.
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Oct-13 at 05:28 PM.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Precisely. The implication there is that it does nothing to decrease violence, just redirects it to the next, less capable, victim.

    And as long as there are less capable victims, the motives of predators are best served by encouraging any dialogue about violence to concentrate on shifting the target around, rather than concentrate on the predators themselves.


    All well and good for the 'you' in that situation. It only mitigates your personal risk. It becomes 'somebody else's problem'.
    And (statistically) worse for those somebody elses less capable than 'you'.
    It took me a while to get what you're saying here. When you say "shifting the target around" you're talking about the attacker shifting his "target"? IE, a random stranger?

    We've already pointed out that the vast majority of cases are when an attacker is already close to their subject. IE, they're usually not fishing for targets. It's generally the result of a dysfunctional man in a dysfunctional (and sometimes one sided) power relationship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    We've already pointed out that the vast majority of cases are when an attacker is already close to their subject. IE, they're usually not fishing for targets. It's generally the result of a dysfunctional man in a dysfunctional (and sometimes one sided) power relationship.
    Will you go so far as to suggest that merely removing the opportunity of that specific victim (say, their step-daughter or their secretary) would result in that predator stopping being predatory? He is no longer a danger to anyone? He stops being dysfunctional?

    In other words: predatory incidents are circumstantial, and not behavioral? Eliminate the specific circumstance and you eliminate the predatory tendency?
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Oct-13 at 08:54 PM.

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