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Thread: Soyuz Emergency landing.

  1. #31
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    Last thought. The RT channel spent most of thursday on this story. BBC please note.

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    Any definite word on whether they used the escape tower or not yet? The mishap seems to have happened at booster separation, the abort very shortly after that, if that can help to find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    The launch failure has highlighted that Russia is the only option for the US to get into space currently. The report acknowledges China as an alternative but dismisses it with the comment "China has successfully put its astronauts into orbit, but its space program is still in relative infancy."

    https://www.rferl.org/a/soyuz-mishap.../29540427.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I would go so far as to say, SpaceX will reach NASA human-rated standards before a Chinese vessel will... Not out of any lack of technical skill on the part of China's space program, but because of that very reluctance to share information and responsibility, as well as the complexity of US/China relations.
    Some reluctance to share is understandable, but we have NASA TV and the internet, which China makes great use of. Engineers all around the world probably watch and read that stuff, which must lead to a lot of "Let's not rebuild the wheel" thinking. If docking systems are different, it is more likely that someone added some bells and whistles that make them different rather than a complete redesign of basic features.

    I am pretty sure that a lot of things don't work together because the users view bells and whistles as "necessary" and are unwilling to design them away. A modern astronaut will tell you Apollo era equipment is great, but won't really want to ride in one if given a second option of a far superior machine, like a Soyuz. Astronauts who get to see other countries vehicles probably get into a lot of shop talk, arguing the pros and cons of each. That would be interesting TV. At least, I'd watch it.
    Solfe

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Read somewhere that the Chinese docking mechanism was compatible with the Russian one.
    That makes sense; I believe the Chinese designs were originally based on Russian ones.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Some reluctance to share is understandable, but we have NASA TV and the internet, which China makes great use of. Engineers all around the world probably watch and read that stuff, which must lead to a lot of "Let's not rebuild the wheel" thinking. If docking systems are different, it is more likely that someone added some bells and whistles that make them different rather than a complete redesign of basic features.

    I am pretty sure that a lot of things don't work together because the users view bells and whistles as "necessary" and are unwilling to design them away. A modern astronaut will tell you Apollo era equipment is great, but won't really want to ride in one if given a second option of a far superior machine, like a Soyuz. Astronauts who get to see other countries vehicles probably get into a lot of shop talk, arguing the pros and cons of each. That would be interesting TV. At least, I'd watch it.
    Unofficial casual conversation is one thing, but it's not the main thing. Designs have to pass through committees and the like, and SpaceX has a close working relationship with NASA and Congress.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2018-Oct-14 at 02:15 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Any definite word on whether they used the escape tower or not yet? The mishap seems to have happened at booster separation, the abort very shortly after that, if that can help to find out.
    According to the Scott Manley video I linked to above, they did not. There are rockets on the escape tower and there are rockets on the shroud over the capsule. The escape tower had already been jettisoned by the time of the accident, but the shroud had not been and the rockets on it fired to pull the capsule clear.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Some reluctance to share is understandable, but we have NASA TV and the internet, which China makes great use of. Engineers all around the world probably watch and read that stuff, which must lead to a lot of "Let's not rebuild the wheel" thinking. If docking systems are different, it is more likely that someone added some bells and whistles that make them different rather than a complete redesign of basic features.

    I am pretty sure that a lot of things don't work together because the users view bells and whistles as "necessary" and are unwilling to design them away. A modern astronaut will tell you Apollo era equipment is great, but won't really want to ride in one if given a second option of a far superior machine, like a Soyuz. Astronauts who get to see other countries vehicles probably get into a lot of shop talk, arguing the pros and cons of each. That would be interesting TV. At least, I'd watch it.
    That isn't my understand. The US and the Russian are very different, and were developed independently. It is a lot more than "bells and whistles" that are different.

    This forum has a couple of posts with an extensive discussion.
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  8. #38
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    Any cooperation with China would involve sharing of technology both ways, and would likely run afoul of ITAR, which is restrictive and far reaching, even for "civilian" technology, vis a vis NASA. ITAR is a complicated and confusing set of "arms" regulations that international satellite and ISS related missions must comply with. Since China is officially a hostile foreign power, the US has been very reluctant to grant any compliance to Chinese technology or any US sharing of technology. That's not to say it can't or won't happen, but it will be a slow process.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ms_Regulations
    https://gov-relations.com/itar/
    https://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/nasaecp/Webbrfg/sld001.htm (old and terribly formatted slide show)

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    According to the Scott Manley video I linked to above, they did not. There are rockets on the escape tower and there are rockets on the shroud over the capsule. The escape tower had already been jettisoned by the time of the accident, but the shroud had not been and the rockets on it fired to pull the capsule clear.
    OK, and from what I understood those have a far lower acceleration than the tower does. They stated something in the 7G range, where from the top of my head the tower momentarily goes above 20G.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    OK, and from what I understood those have a far lower acceleration than the tower does. They stated something in the 7G range, where from the top of my head the tower momentarily goes above 20G.
    I don't know the values, but yes, the tower acceleration is much higher.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I don't know the values, but yes, the tower acceleration is much higher.
    Also from the Manley video, my understanding is the tower has a much bigger thrust because the assumption is it may be needed earlier when the boosters are attached to the rocket and are pushing hard themselves. So to achieve rapid separation, the tower rockets are more powerful than those of the shroud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Since China is officially a hostile foreign power, the US has been very reluctant to grant any compliance to Chinese technology or any US sharing of technology.
    I'm just curious, but can you clarify where that is officially stated? You mean by the State Department?
    As above, so below

  13. #43
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    Ok, "officially" was probably the wrong choice, but those of us who work with ... data concerning China have to handle ... things a certain way, differently than other powers. So... it's sort of de facto. And it certainly is on the list for ITAR.

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  14. #44
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    Some discussion here:
    https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/in...?topic=46546.0

    "The report quoted on Russianspaceweb.com states initial telemetry shows the pyro did not fire and rupture the pressure membrane on one booster. This resulted in the booster not separating at the ball socket. The lower part of the booster under the effects continuing core stage thrust then was pulled into and slammed into the core stage resulting in a breach of the core stage and deviation of the launcher from the flight azimuth (It is visible in some video). The breach forcibly ejected the remaining booster."
    http://russianspaceweb.com/soyuz-ms-10.html

    All about booster sep' incidents....
    https://translate.google.ru/translat...htm&edit-text=
    Last edited by publiusr; 2018-Oct-15 at 10:35 PM.

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    The funerial remnants of a space superpower...
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr...6/NYC37701.jpg

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    The funerial remnants of a space superpower...
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr...6/NYC37701.jpg
    There's no caption on the photo. What's being shown? And did you mean funereal?

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    There's no caption on the photo. What's being shown? And did you mean funereal?
    That's between the crew and their doctors.

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    I've seen those pictures years ago; it has nothing to do with the recent failure. It's somewhere in the middle of almost nowhere, downrange of Baikonour, where expelled first stages fall to their death during launch. People come there to salvage the metals, unfortunately not so healthy chemicals are also present. That is, if I remember everything correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    I've seen those pictures years ago; it has nothing to do with the recent failure. It's somewhere in the middle of almost nowhere, downrange of Baikonour, where expelled first stages fall to their death during launch. People come there to salvage the metals, unfortunately not so healthy chemicals are also present. That is, if I remember everything correctly.
    OK, that makes sense; the area downrange is the Russian space program equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean. All of the parts that rain down there will be quite beat up. Coincidentally I recently watched a Scott Manley video on his favorite rocket failures and that image was included in the collection of downed rocket parts.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    The funerial remnants of a space superpower...
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr...6/NYC37701.jpg
    It's been buried for quite a while. Nicholas was right, this is from the year 2000.
    https://www.magnumphotos.com/theory-...en-satellites/

    So this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.. So let's let this image stay in 2000.
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    An article from today was quite unclear in its description, but basically it said the investigation concluded one of the first stage side cores wasn't far away enough when separating the first and second stage, hitting the (second stage?) fuel tank and rupturing it. Cause was determined to be a faulty sensors; a range of actions is planned to avoid in the future.

    All I've got at this moment. No link as it's not in English.

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    Still a heck of a booster, though.
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  23. #53
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    CBS.com

    Russian investigators have traced the cause of the sudden Soyuz launch abort Oct. 11 that triggered a dramatic emergency escape for the Russian mission commander and his NASA co-pilot. Senior managers said Thursday the mishap was due to a "deformed" sensor in a system that controlled the separation of a strap-on first-stage booster from the rocket's central core stage.

    Oleg Skorobogatov, who led the accident investigation, said the sensor was damaged during final assembly at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, adding the conclusion had been "proven and confirmed." He did not say how the sensor was bent, only that it occurred during the rocket's assembly.

    Soyuz rockets being prepared for upcoming flights will be inspected to make sure no similar problems exist.

    A Soyuz rocket carrying a Russian Glonass navigation satellite is scheduled for launch Nov. 3 from the Plesetsk Cosmodrome north of Moscow and a another Soyuz, carrying the MetOp C weather satellite, is scheduled for launch Nov. 6 (EST) from Kourou, French Guiana.
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    And a 2:26 video of the incident taken during the ascent and looking down along the rocket. The left-hand booster clearly does not separate cleanly.

    https://youtu.be/h1bCikeXFcA

    ETA: And a nice simulation video showing the escape tower jettison, failed booster separation and the emergency separation:

    https://youtu.be/ocn7aLqEq-Q
    Last edited by schlaugh; 2018-Nov-01 at 04:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    And a 2:26 video of the incident taken during the ascent and looking down along the rocket. The left-hand booster clearly does not separate cleanly.

    https://youtu.be/h1bCikeXFcA

    ETA: And a nice simulation video showing the escape tower jettison, failed booster separation and the emergency separation:

    https://youtu.be/ocn7aLqEq-Q
    Yes that booster initiated the pivot/release at the same time(IMO) but slowed stopped as the other two boosters continued that release procedure. No footage of the fourth booster, but assuming in function like the top and right. It seems like the left hand booster, while continuing to fire caused some sort of fire near the rocket base and some of the separation is blinded by a fireball. Then the rockets appears to start an uncontrolled roll and wild pitch. Seems like a easy fix, maybe some better QC while assembling.

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