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Thread: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel. There's no air in space.

  1. #121
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    I mean, we don't do it anymore, but at the old Ren Faire site, we'd spend the second Saturday evening lying on our backs on hay bales staring upward, since it comes at the peak of the Perseids. My boss, who is an eighth-grade dropout, used to point out satellites. Is he getting paid by NASA? It can't be much, given what I know of his finances over the years.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    What? Perhaps you didn't understand my question.

    I'm asking you (again) how the spacecraft and satellites that I track and view (using my eyes, binoculars, and telescope) from my own yard got into space if not for rockets?

    Is it perhaps the case that you aren't aware that it is quite feasible to track and see many man-made objects in space? Many people do this. Neowatcher earlier in thread showed detailed views of the International Space Station.
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite. I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.

    So essentially, you are debating the issue of rockets working in space using circumstantial evidence that can be fabricated rather than direct evidence based on actual science and observation.

    People can and have fallen for hoaxes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g

  3. #123
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    Macroscopic example of pressure. Soccer balls in a net. The force applied place tension on the net and holds the balls in. Untie the net and the balls fall out and the net collapses because there is no more tension caused by the balls. No opposite force is seen.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite. I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.
    Bunk.



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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Macroscopic example of pressure. Soccer balls in a net. The force applied place tension on the net and holds the balls in. Untie the net and the balls fall out and the net collapses because there is no more tension caused by the balls. No opposite force is seen.
    I welcome the fourth time you come with the bogus gravity/dropping example. The net doesn't accelerate the ball downwards so the net doesn't get an opposite force. The earth accelerates the ball so the earth feels an opposite force. Read carefully what people say here, it's not all rocket science.

    Have you blown up a balloon yet? Or have you never played with a balloon. After all, you somehow have managed to miss all satellites passing over even though you say you look at the sky a lot. From earth with the naked eye, a satellite is seen as a constant (not blinking) light moving slowly across the sky, about the size of a star. Take a decent telescope and you can make out details on the larger constructions such as the ISS. You can't simply argue nothing is up there; you can see it from your own backyard with a nice telescope. For example, this picture of the ISS was made using a relatively small telescope any private person could buy/build:



    Made with this scope (and this guy):


    So spaceflight obviously is not a hoax, it's there for all to see. So do tell me, how did the ISS get up there if rockets do not work in a vacuum?
    Last edited by Nicolas; 2019-Mar-16 at 09:29 PM.

  6. #126
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    PS there is a video demonstrating Newton's laws, filmed on board of the ISS. Pretty masochistic hoax that would be: faking Newton's laws in your faked space station to try and fool people into believing Newton's laws are valid so spaceflight is valid so your ISS is valid. I mean, seriously. The extent of the hoax you're proposing is proposterous. You do realize there are commercial companies, having nothing to do with NASA, the USA, or any rocket launching business, that build/own satellites and use the data they produce, do you? You do realize 100 orbital launches are done per year, resulting in more than 100 satellites added per year? With each satellite having a large to huge user base? Basically, the whole world would have to be "in on it" and still there is the masochistic part of having a big secret and yet keep doing things (launches, new satellites, etc) that have to be faked, again and again. And WHY would "they" do that? It makes no sense, even if people couldn't see spacecraft from their backyard. And they can.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite.
    Your failure to do so does not change the fact that many of us have done so.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epf8NiLszoc
    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.

    So essentially, you are debating the issue of rockets working in space using circumstantial evidence that can be fabricated rather than direct evidence based on actual science and observation.

    People can and have fallen for hoaxes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g
    This isn't a hoax, nor is it a radioplay:
    https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...25#post2478225
    This is direct evidence of rockets working in the vacuum of space, which you've been ignoring since page 3. I say again, what evidence do you have to support your claim that the above video does not show a rocket in space?

  8. #128
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    And it's easy to see the ISS. There's even a handy website that'll tell you when and where to look. Of course, that's just from NASA, who I'm sure will just fly a plane over all those locations every night.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite. I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.

    So essentially, you are debating the issue of rockets working in space using circumstantial evidence that can be fabricated rather than direct evidence based on actual science and observation.

    People can and have fallen for hoaxes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g
    You certainly have fallen for one.

  10. #130
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    And it's easy to see the ISS. There's even a handy website that'll tell you when and where to look. Of course, that's just from NASA, who I'm sure will just fly a plane over all those locations every night.
    And given the plane would be much lower than it claims to be, you'd need to fly multiple planes to accomodate viewers across the line of sight. Let's say 10 planes are enough to fool all astronomers looking at the fake ISS (it's not, those guys measure more precise than 1°). There are currently 5000 satellites in space (or so they say!). that would take 50.000 planes to fake just the visual observation from the ground. Then there is the data they are sending. But never mind, that would mean the Fakers-R-Us airline would have double the total number of official aircraft (excluding light aircraft) in the world today. Yeah. And all that just to propagate a hoax that has no reason to be. And I'm totally ignoring the fact that if a pressure gradiënt would not follow Newton's laws, aircraft engines of any type would also not work. So...

  11. #131
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    I'm wondering how the GPS in my car works if satellites don't exist. Or the communication lines which I use onboard of ships in the middle of the ocean. I use those things on a regular basis, they exist. How so, if satellites cannot be launched into space?

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    So um rockethunter what experiments have you conducted and what data were recorded/observed to prove your theory?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite. I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.
    What specific effort have you made to track and view spacecraft/satellites? I've been watching them since the '70s.


    So essentially, you are debating the issue of rockets working in space using circumstantial evidence that can be fabricated rather than direct evidence based on actual science and observation.
    No, I'm discussing direct evidence, based on what I and many other people have seen. And you are also still ignoring the other part of the question: What of the satellites needed for GPS, satellite TV, satellite based emergency beacons, satellite phones, and so forth? Or if you're going to claim those are all somehow faked, then please provide a plausible method by which that could be done. Good luck.

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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    And it's easy to see the ISS. There's even a handy website that'll tell you when and where to look. Of course, that's just from NASA, who I'm sure will just fly a plane over all those locations every night.
    Better still, the Iridium Flares - I wonder who NASA hires to fly over my location in outback Australia in a darkened plane, remembering to turn on an intensely bright light from their plane for a few seconds with pinpoint timing, just for my benefit. Curious that I've never seen that particular job advertised in the aviation press. ��

  15. #135
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    The OP will be taking some time off, so this thread is closed.

    rockethunter,

    If you wish to continue this thread upon your return, report this post and ask that it be reopened.


    Edit to add:

    Thread reopened at the OP's request.

    rockethunter,

    Please follow our rules and answer the questions asked of you.
    Last edited by PetersCreek; 2019-May-01 at 07:53 PM.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    rockethunter

    You say there is no air in space. How do you know? If, as you claim, rockets can't work in vacuum, then either we never sent a rocket there, or it isn't a vacuum. Please present the evidence and the data showing there is no air in space.
    Third time I've asked this.

    Rockethunter, I would like an answer to my question. How do you know there is no air in space if we never went there?
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  17. #137
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    I wonder if Rockethunter is the same guy that's got about a 40 page thread going over at ISF.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    I wonder if Rockethunter is the same guy that's got about a 40 page thread going over at ISF.
    Not really relevant to the discussion here. With apologies to Kipling: Oh, there is there, and here is here, and never the twain shall meet.
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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite. I've been looking at the sky constantly. I see stars, falling stars, regular stuff. Planes with contrails.
    I would like to be clear about what you’re saying ... many people say they have seen “things in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite”. I too have seen things in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite.

    Do you acknowledge this fact?


    So essentially, you are debating the issue of rockets working in space using circumstantial evidence that can be fabricated rather than direct evidence based on actual science and observation.

    People can and have fallen for hoaxes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g
    Again, I would like to be clear about what you are claiming ... do you claim that I - and many others - have “fallen for hoaxes” when we say that we have seen things in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite?

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I've never seen anything in the sky that can be perceived as a satellite.
    A personal eyeball perception is not relevant when there are people with telescopes taking images of satellites in the sky. You are ignoring that there are people in 1 satellite (the International Space Station). You are ignoring that we get data from those satellites. You may have a mobile device with GPS that only works because there are satellites in the sky!
    The visual observations, telescopic observations, astronaut visits to satellites and usage of satelliteis direct evidence based on actual science and observation.

    If there are no satellites in the sky, how do signals beamed into the sky get back exactly as if they were bounced off satellites?
    If there are no satellites in the sky, how do GPS receivers work?
    If there are no satellites in the sky, where do the ISS astronauts go on their rockets and stay for months?
    If there are no satellites in the sky, why can anyone with eyes see them in their assigned orbits and anyone with a telescope get images of them?
    ISS Crossing the Sun

    If there are no satellites in the sky, where does the scientific data from the Hubble satellite and others come from?
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2019-May-02 at 12:09 AM.

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    can you explain how satellites see through the clouds? why do they have so many underground sea cable going across the atlantic.
    You need to do some research rather than asking questions that general knowledge, common sense or a few minutes with Google can answer.
    Satellites seeing through the clouds is the trivial fact that the visual spectrum is not all of the spectrum. They use radar, etc.
    Satellites are more expensive than undersea cables. Demand cannot be met with satellites alone. And of course many of those cables were laid before satellites were thought of or were economic for private companies.

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  23. #143
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    I would also like my previous question addressed from Rocket Hunter, if he's coming back here. I will paraphrase it here so you don't have to look it up:

    "Why do you think that nobody in the past 60 years has ever bothered to do the incredibly simple and easy experiment of making a vacuum chamber and putting a rocket inside it attached to a force gauge? Why have you personally not done this experiment?"

    Thank you.

  24. #144
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    A high‐resolution thrust stand for ground tests of low‐thrust space propulsion devices published in 1993 and citing earlier work.
    A new type of thrust stand for accurately measuring a low‐level (10 mN to 1 N) thrust produced by a space propulsion device in its ground tests has been developed. Vacuum bellows are utilized both as a feedthrough tool from electrical power, propellant, and coolant supplies to a thruster installed in a vacuum chamber, and as an elastic support.
    More used for electric propulsion but that is still the application of Newton's third law using electromagnetism rather than chemical reactions to push gas out of the rocket and thus push the rocket in the opposite direction.

    Vacuum chamber pressure effects on thrust measurements of low Reynolds number nozzles (1986).
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2019-May-02 at 02:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    I would also like my previous question addressed from Rocket Hunter, if he's coming back here. I will paraphrase it here so you don't have to look it up:

    "Why do you think that nobody in the past 60 years has ever bothered to do the incredibly simple and easy experiment of making a vacuum chamber and putting a rocket inside it attached to a force gauge? Why have you personally not done this experiment?"

    Thank you.
    Because who has the time and money? Show a legitimate one from your tube that’s not faked.

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    All these space things could be faked. I know I certainly can not verify. Why not prove rockets working in space using science and math?

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    Rockets explode in space lol

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Rockets explode in space lol
    Rockets can explode wherever they please. lol
    As above, so below

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Because who has the time and money?
    That does not answer my question, but to address it anyway:

    Any university would easily have both the time and money, plus the motivation to do so as it would be a great learning tool for students.
    Any government in the world would easily have both the time and money.
    Any private company that is interested in sending something up into space would easily have the time and money.
    Any research organization would easily have the time and the money to do this.
    Also most citizens would easily have both the time and money as this is not very expensive to do and there are LARGE numbers of people with disposable income that do these sorts of do-it-yourself projects just as a hobby.

    So in sort, the majority of humans in the developed world have both the time and the money to do this. So I will repeat my question since you are now armed with the knowledge that hundreds of millions of people have the ability to perform this simple experiment in their backyard and potentially prove you correct:

    "Why do you think that nobody in the past 60 years has ever bothered to do the incredibly simple and easy experiment of making a vacuum chamber and putting a rocket inside it attached to a force gauge? Why have you personally not done this experiment?"


    Show a legitimate one from your tube that’s not faked.
    Funny, I was just about to ask you to do that. Can you?

  30. #150
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    rockethunter,

    The performance and utility of rocketry has been demonstrated through a long and voluminous historical record. It is your burden to prove fakery if that is your assertion. You cannot shift that burden of proof onto anyone else. It is not enough to say that it can be faked. You must show that it has been faked. Proceed.
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