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Thread: EU Parliament votes to end clock changes between winter and summer time

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    EU Parliament votes to end clock changes between winter and summer time

    The European Parliament has voted to end the changing of clocks between winter and summer time as member states will decide their own time zone.
    MEPs voted in favour of EU Commission proposals to end the practice of adjusting clocks by an hour in spring and autumn from 2021.
    Each member state will decide whether to keep summer time or winter time all year round.
    https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-26/...e-summer-time/

    That's good..it always takes me at least a week to get used to the change..............

    no more spring forward; fall back...

    btw, the clocks go forward an hour this Sunday at 1am, in the uK.
    ................................

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    Each member state will decide whether to keep summer time or winter time all year round.
    What?! That opens the potential to have 2 time zones in Europe (which isn't too bad), scattered all over the place (which is bad!)! Image if Belgium chooses summer, Luxemburg winter, Germany Summer. The clock would go foreward and backward again in less than an hour road trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    What?! That opens the potential to have 2 time zones in Europe (which isn't too bad), scattered all over the place (which is bad!)! Image if Belgium chooses summer, Luxemburg winter, Germany Summer. The clock would go foreward and backward again in less than an hour road trip.
    I think the assumption behind the rule change is that governments in each country are at least sensible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxRubiks View Post
    <snip>
    That's good..it always takes me at least a week to get used to the change..............
    I don't really understand why people get in such a twist about the time change (on this side of the Atlantic too). It never seems to be such a big deal to me. In the US it is on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and the times I go to bed and wake on the weekends usually vary by at least an hour (or more) depending on my weekend plans.

    Personally, I prefer more daylight in the evening, rather than the morning, and give my druthers, would leave it on "summer" time (standard time in the US). But some people act like the whole thing is a crime against humanity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I don't really understand why people get in such a twist about the time change (on this side of the Atlantic too). It never seems to be such a big deal to me. In the US it is on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and the times I go to bed and wake on the weekends usually vary by at least an hour (or more) depending on my weekend plans.

    Personally, I prefer more daylight in the evening, rather than the morning, and give my druthers, would leave it on "summer" time (standard time in the US). But some people act like the whole thing is a crime against humanity.
    maybe I have a strong sense of circadian rhythm...sometime I can guess the time quite well....once I remember I had to wake up at a certain time, and I did, to the minute...

    It's just a bit unsettling.......sort of an occasion as well...when threads get started on some forums, with people complaining and discussing.
    ................................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I don't really understand why people get in such a twist about the time change (on this side of the Atlantic too). It never seems to be such a big deal to me. In the US it is on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and the times I go to bed and wake on the weekends usually vary by at least an hour (or more) depending on my weekend plans.

    Personally, I prefer more daylight in the evening, rather than the morning, and give my druthers, would leave it on "summer" time (standard time in the US). But some people act like the whole thing is a crime against humanity.
    I like to wake up with sunshine (or at least a glimmer) coming through the windows. With DST year round the morning would be darned dark, especially in northern areas.

    A lot of parents don't like DST because school bus stops are in full dark in the morning. But then they like having the extra light for sports and activities. Kobayashi Maru!

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    A lot of parents don't like DST because school bus stops are in full dark in the morning.
    This confuses me. DST is in the summer months, when it's not dark in the mornings and there's no school anyway.

    Unless you meant they wouldn't like year-round DST.
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    Our daylight time runs from early March to early November. At or near those extremities it is dark when many schools open in the morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    This confuses me. DST is in the summer months, when it's not dark in the mornings and there's no school anyway.

    Unless you meant they wouldn't like year-round DST.
    Both scenarios; as it stands today and if the US were on year-round DST.

    In March, in Atlanta, the sunrise is around 7:30 and then goes to about 6:40 in May when the school year ends. By the end of September it's back to 7:30 and by the middle of December, if DST were still active, sunrise would be around 8:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waxrubiks View Post
    i think the assumption behind the rule change is that governments in each country are at least sensible. :d
    what?! :d

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    We're already in DST, so saying it's "in the summer months" misses that we now spend more of the year in DST than in what we still call "standard" time. At the beginning and end, we are definitely getting Simon out around dawn to get on his bus, and I have no doubt that kids in outlying regions here are definitely catching buses in the dark.
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    We'll all be living underground soon enough when the ozone layer goes and the air becomes unbreathable. Then we won't have any daylight at all.

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    The Ozone Layer? What is this, 1988?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    We'll all be living underground soon enough when the ozone layer goes and the air becomes unbreathable. Then we won't have any daylight at all.
    All the better to save it now!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I don't really understand why people get in such a twist about the time change (on this side of the Atlantic too). It never seems to be such a big deal to me. In the US it is on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and the times I go to bed and wake on the weekends usually vary by at least an hour (or more) depending on my weekend plans.

    Personally, I prefer more daylight in the evening, rather than the morning, and give my druthers, would leave it on "summer" time (standard time in the US). But some people act like the whole thing is a crime against humanity.
    I hate this messing about with the clocks, stealing an hour out of my life for 6 months out of every year. It should be stopped, as it is unfair to the winter born folks.

    If you are born between October and March, every day has 24 hours until one night they steal an hour when the clocks go forward, so you only get a twenty three hour day. You either lose an hour's sleep, or an hour from your waking hours. Totally unfair.

    You are owed an hour of your life back for the next six months. Finally, in October, the clocks go back and you get back the hour you have been owed for all that time.

    This happens every year. You spend half your life owed an hour.

    Whereas, if you are born between March and October, the first thing that happens is in October the clocks go back, and you are given an extra hour!

    You get to have had the benefit of that extra hour for six months, until they take it back again in March.

    You spend half your life having had an extra hour to do with as you please.

    Darned summer born hour stealers! I want my hour back!
    Last edited by speedfreek; 2019-Mar-30 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Typo

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    if we are to have a referendum about the clocks, I hope there is an option to return to the idea of a fixed number of hours between sunrise and sunset, 12 is OK, or 10 would do, and they change in length with the seasons. that would bring back a human perception base to overcome the clockwork dictatorship. Watches with modern technology could accommodate the progressive changes in hour length.
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    Yes, that's a great idea, let's have the number of hours between sunrise and sunset change with the seasons. If they do it just right, we could even have it work out that the length of an hour was always the same number of cycles of a standard oscillator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    if we are to have a referendum about the clocks, I hope there is an option to return to the idea of a fixed number of hours between sunrise and sunset, 12 is OK, or 10 would do, and they change in length with the seasons. that would bring back a human perception base to overcome the clockwork dictatorship. Watches with modern technology could accommodate the progressive changes in hour length.
    It sounds kind of like you’re advocating “dictatorship” by the middle latitudes. If I understand your plan, each of your summertime hours would about 7 days long in Utquiagvik, Alaska while here in the Anchorage area, it would be a little over 97 minutes long. How is that more useful?

    And I sure wouldn’t want to time an egg using one of your watches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    It sounds kind of like you’re advocating “dictatorship” by the middle latitudes. If I understand your plan, each of your summertime hours would about 7 days long in Utquiagvik, Alaska while here in the Anchorage area, it would be a little over 97 minutes long. How is that more useful?

    And I sure wouldn’t want to time an egg using one of your watches.
    well the ancient Egyptians did that, 12 hour days whatever the season, I recall, not that I was there. But not seven days long, its a daily thing. It's true the extreme lattitudes would have to walk fast in winter to get to school before lunchtime.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    well the ancient Egyptians did that, 12 hour days whatever the season, I recall, not that I was there. But not seven days long, its a daily thing. It's true the extreme lattitudes would have to walk fast in winter to get to school before lunchtime.
    In Japan it was similar, perhaps influenced by Egypt. In the Edo period, there were six daytime hours starting at dawn and ending at dusk, so the daytime hour were longer in the summer and shorter in the winter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    well the ancient Egyptians did that, 12 hour days whatever the season, I recall, not that I was there.
    That may have worked for the Egyptians since they’re at a much lower latitude...and they didn’t have to coordinate events with other points on the globe. The point of my example was, if we were to divide the daylight hours into 12 “hours,” it would have wildly impractical results at the extreme latitudes.

    In my example, when the sun rises in Utqiagvik on May 11th, it will not set again for about 84 days. I doubt they would find a weeklong “hour” at all useful. Conversely, their longest winter night lasts 67 days. Zero daytime hours. What then?
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    I agree that the seasonal time thing is a pretty strange idea. The only benefit I can see coming from it would be that running the hundred meters in less than one seconds would become trivial, as long as you did it in the summer in a high northern latitude.

    As an additional drawback, not only would the time be different by longitude, but by latitude as well. Train schedules would be a nightmare because the time to get from a to b would depend on the time of year... and you would have to change speed limit signs all the time, and your pulse rate would vary depending on where you are.


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    Just a few more thoughts: piano tuning and clock speed of computers would no longer be absolute values but would depend on the time of year and latitude...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I agree that the seasonal time thing is a pretty strange idea. The only benefit I can see coming from it would be that running the hundred meters in less than one seconds would become trivial, as long as you did it in the summer in a high northern latitude.

    As an additional drawback, not only would the time be different by longitude, but by latitude as well. Train schedules would be a nightmare because the time to get from a to b would depend on the time of year... and you would have to change speed limit signs all the time, and your pulse rate would vary depending on where you are.


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    but on the upside, Richard Branson could boast about having warp-drive, and he could get you around the galaxy in a few hours..

    Perhaps Branson should hire Dr. Frankenfurter, to get on to it...
    Last edited by WaxRubiks; 2019-Mar-31 at 04:30 AM.
    ................................

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    That may have worked for the Egyptians since they’re at a much lower latitude...and they didn’t have to coordinate events with other points on the globe. The point of my example was, if we were to divide the daylight hours into 12 “hours,” it would have wildly impractical results at the extreme latitudes.

    In my example, when the sun rises in Utqiagvik on May 11th, it will not set again for about 84 days. I doubt they would find a weeklong “hour” at all useful. Conversely, their longest winter night lasts 67 days. Zero daytime hours. What then?
    Well there is an embedded assumption that daylight is for being awake and night time is for sleep. I can see that some of us have broken with that. The need to have time synchrony across long distances came with trains and clockwork. I propose modern relativity clocks that understand lattitude and longitude in order to avoid missing a train, plane or information linked concert half way roundthe world. But being perverse i would keep my pendulum clock because I like its tick. The main summer time hour change seemed to be about school children walking home in the dark, and so my idea is linked to that too. School time can vary with the seasons, and I admit to having a mid lattitude bias, so have no desire to force polarproximal friends to adopt the same idea, they might choose thin and thick candles instead.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Just a few more thoughts: piano tuning and clock speed of computers would no longer be absolute values but would depend on the time of year and latitude...


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    That isa nice thought although my tuning fork seems to be the same pitch day and night but that could be confirmation bias. The possibility of major works being played faster in winter seems very sensible for those outdoor concerts. Computer clock speeds: now that is an example of clockwork tyranny. They should change to suit the task and importance of bitstream errors, as well as the needs of the human interface. But that’s getting away from summertime where here it already an hour later than my body clock thinks. There will be consequences.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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    This chitchat reminds me of a gimmick I heard about on a radio talk show some 20-30 years ago. It was a programmable watch that would run at an adjusted rate during a long flight. The user would enter the longitudes of the origin and destination, along with the scheduled departure and arrival times, so the watch would show the local time upon arrival after having stayed close to local solar time during the journey. The wishful-thinking idea was to psychosomatically prevent jet lag by giving the user the illusion of no time shift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    That isa nice thought although my tuning fork seems to be the same pitch day and night but that could be confirmation bias. The possibility of major works being played faster in winter seems very sensible for those outdoor concerts. Computer clock speeds: now that is an example of clockwork tyranny. They should change to suit the task and importance of bitstream errors, as well as the needs of the human interface. But that’s getting away from summertime where here it already an hour later than my body clock thinks. There will be consequences.
    Which is worse, clockwork tyranny or solar time tyranny?

  30. #30
    Currently, if you fly from London to Madrid, you have to set the clock ahead one hour, even though you are travelling west. So if Spain chooses permanent summer time and the UK chooses permanent winter time, then you can set your clock ahead two hours when travelling west from London to Madrid.

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