Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 91 to 120 of 120

Thread: Long life distribution methods

  1. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    OTOH if the biotechnology someday exists to alter the brain that radically, imagine what we'd be able to do in the area of life extension by then.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    The Valley of the Sun
    Posts
    9,430
    It might not matter much to the hive mind when a single brain dies since new ones would be coming online all the time.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    It would still be kind if a big deal to most of us.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    In Larry Niven's Known Space, Earth is so overcrowded that people are infertile by law; there's a "birthright lottery" ...that ended up being massively corrupt and open to outside influence. There are even "mother hunts" for those who can't resist having one too many.

    Will there be There WILL be shenanigans of this sort for any life/health extension or, probably, for any means of choosing who gets a limited benefit. Bribes will change hands, black market clinics will flourish, hoaxes and cons will be perpetrated.

    Now let's say that the Church of Immortology has such a method and aims to distribute it. Any (rules-compliant) ideas how to keep them honest?
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    ADDED: The Church of Immortology in this scenario is a large powerful organization, that can make rules that (theoretically) its Foundation has to follow.

    How could the Holy Church enforce its laws and good behavior?
    Maybe they could give the Foundation a break on their tithes, or appoint an independent oversight agency?

    Or maybe the members of the foundation put off their own treatment for a set number of years. If they screw up, the Church revokes their right to immortality ever.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Depew, NY
    Posts
    11,768
    Ah... is this for a story? If it is... Have you ever read Julian May's Pliocene Exile series? It is one of the rare books that has cheap and easy time travel with a limitation. The problem is the gate is in France and leads back to point in Pliocene. Time seems to pass one for one and there is no cheap and easy return trip. If you try to enter the gate from the Pliocene, you get aged all the way back to the future. Since this doesn't make for nice fossils, dust pops out of the gate.

    What if your organization had some super heavy equipment that couldn't be moved or replicated. Then the limiting factor is trying to travel to the site, perhaps more than once for a top up of longevity. You get a miner's strike sort of effect where the cost is actually showing up, not purchasing the service/treatment.
    Solfe

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    It looks like the genetic therapy/stem cell model holds the most promising lines of research in the real-world.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  7. #97
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    What if your organization had some super heavy equipment that couldn't be moved or replicated. Then the limiting factor is trying to travel to the site, perhaps more than once for a top up of longevity. You get a miner's strike sort of effect where the cost is actually showing up, not purchasing the service/treatment.
    I can see if it's available in one place and not in another, there could be issues. Can't go into any detail, of course, but "vacations" to unexpected locales might see a surge in popularity. Especially to black market "back alley" clinics.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    For "Church" you could substitute any large, powerful institution.

    The question is, what should they do about it? "It" meaning, getting this benefit out to the most people?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Depew, NY
    Posts
    11,768
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    For "Church" you could substitute any large, powerful institution.

    The question is, what should they do about it? "It" meaning, getting this benefit out to the most people?
    That is a pretty awesome idea for a story, because being a "church" technically makes a donation and the service 100% voluntary. It almost builds a lot of characters from the ground up. Why are they doing this? What are they doing? Which group to they belong to and why? And so on.

    I could picture the people on the fringe, where the tech came into existence after they were too "stuck" in their ways to partake themselves, but really want to help others. That's a nice, complex character.
    Solfe

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Depew, NY
    Posts
    11,768
    Let me throw in some cool sounding words to this discussion, which ignores payment and means.

    "Ring Containment". This was the method used to eradicate smallpox. Since people aren't carriers of the disease, they'd have to receive a report of the outbreak then select an area then treat everyone with vaccine. In the process, you hopefully also saved the victim. Lather, rinse, repeat until victory.

    "Chautauqua" was an adult education system in the United States. We still have the Chautauqua Institute in the south western portion of New York. That is sort of what you are looking for as far as a non-governmental, not exactly religious, force for good. They used to rove the country, hitting rural American up with entertainment, education, philosophy, debate, etc. It was a different response to need than vaudeville, which worked in the same fashion but with a different POV.

    Combine the two and you have a mobile task forces of people applying treatment, without respect to anything currently found in large scales of any particular society. From the perspective of the recipient, they are merely waiting for the service to roll through. What if they decide that this isn't the right time, but then suddenly find it highly desirable after the chautauqua is gone? Queue up the great chase music.

    The interesting thing is it's mobile and predictable to an extent, with the limit factor of how long will be they be in the area without the recipient having to hop a plane or something. One thing about longevity is, it really slams the breaks on doing something "fast". If everyone takes the long view, perhaps a lot of things we do today won't be particularly needful in the future and appear outright odd. "Email? What's the hurry? Take the time to write a letter."

    Edit - I would be remiss if I didn't mention Ray Bradbury. He somehow managed to give some of his stories the feeling of a comfy catastrophe where people weren't killed but were isolated by time, place and point of view.
    Solfe

  11. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    One thing about longevity is, it really slams the breaks on doing something "fast". If everyone takes the long view, perhaps a lot of things we do today won't be particularly needful in the future and appear outright odd. "Email? What's the hurry? Take the time to write a letter."
    But young people are impatient and impulsive. If the rejuvenation end of the process results in anything like the behavior of young people in my day .... We'd really need to tweak the endocrine balance to avoid that.

    What would an old brain with young hormones think like anyway? What would the effects on the brain be, period? You can't just throw in new grey matter willy-nilly without disrupting the carefully laid down neural pathways.

    This IMO would be the true frontier of anti-aging medicine; Brain repair and restoration. Making that both possible and safe is much more complex than getting an injection or popping a pill. It'll require long term ongoing care and monitoring.

    By all means, save my body. But don't forget that bulbous organ at the top of my neck.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  12. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    That is a pretty awesome idea for a story, because being a "church" technically makes a donation and the service 100% voluntary. It almost builds a lot of characters from the ground up. Why are they doing this? What are they doing? Which group to they belong to and why? And so on.

    I could picture the people on the fringe, where the tech came into existence after they were too "stuck" in their ways to partake themselves, but really want to help others. That's a nice, complex character.
    If you want, you can have the idea, free of charge. Public domain.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    "Ring Containment". This was the method used to eradicate smallpox. Since people aren't carriers of the disease, they'd have to receive a report of the outbreak then select an area then treat everyone with vaccine. In the process, you hopefully also saved the victim. Lather, rinse, repeat until victory.

    "Chautauqua" was an adult education system in the United States. We still have the Chautauqua Institute in the south western portion of New York. That is sort of what you are looking for as far as a non-governmental, not exactly religious, force for good. They used to rove the country, hitting rural American up with entertainment, education, philosophy, debate, etc. It was a different response to need than vaudeville, which worked in the same fashion but with a different POV.

    Combine the two and you have a mobile task forces of people applying treatment, without respect to anything currently found in large scales of any particular society. From the perspective of the recipient, they are merely waiting for the service to roll through. What if they decide that this isn't the right time, but then suddenly find it highly desirable after the chautauqua is gone? Queue up the great chase music.

    The interesting thing is it's mobile and predictable to an extent, with the limit factor of how long will be they be in the area without the recipient having to hop a plane or something.
    I can see under certain circumstances, a private group distributing treatments to communities with a large elderly population. Although, it seems like they'd have to have large mobile clinics or labs, or a dedicated delivery system to reach stationary labs from all over, in order to do the necessary analysis and alterations of so many individuals. So it would still require a fairly large, fairly wealthy organization or alliance to accomplish.

    ADDED: And they'd have to hang around a good while, too. Maybe move once or at most twice a year, and check back with their patients regularly. Better have multiple groups active at the same time.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2019-May-26 at 06:42 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  14. #104
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    A combination of need and lottery? A multi-level system. Applicants' needs and age are weighed by a committee of "judges", but while the patients wait their name also goes into a random drawing that chooses, say, 1%. Win the lottery and they take your name out of committee. Chosen by the committee, your name is withdrawn from the lottery, making room for someone else to be chosen.

    Make it fully transparent, to cut down on corruption and nepotism. All on live stream, all the time. Body cams on committee members would not IMO be going too far.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  15. #105
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    So if we actually do succeed in extending lives, we're going to need to deal with the consequences, economic and social.

    Overpopulation and all that comes with it. Concentration of wealth and status in the hands of a few elders. Inheritance. Retirement. No generational turnover. etc

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2019-May-28 at 11:39 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  16. #106
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,565
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So if we actually do succeed in extending lives, we're going to need to deal with the consequences, economic and social.

    Overpopulation and all that comes with it. Concentration of wealth and status in the hands of a few elders. Inheritance. Retirement. No generational turnover. etc

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Actually, we are already dealing with those consequences, so extending lives more will sort of be an extension of things we are already seeing. Pension systems are under intense pressure in a lot of countries because of an increased elderly population. Now of course, that is assuming that people have an extended period at the end of their lives when they cannot be active like young people. If you can extend lives in such a way that people can work until the day they drop, then that problem goes away. So it depends somewhat on the type of extension that happens.
    As above, so below

  17. #107
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Actually, we are already dealing with those consequences, so extending lives more will sort of be an extension of things we are already seeing. Pension systems are under intense pressure in a lot of countries because of an increased elderly population. Now of course, that is assuming that people have an extended period at the end of their lives when they cannot be active like young people. If you can extend lives in such a way that people can work until the day they drop, then that problem goes away. So it depends somewhat on the type of extension that happens.
    I think it's still too early to say, but many anti-aging research and advocacy groups are now broadening their emphasis from life extension only, to life and health extension. Living with more function, for longer. A positive development in my book.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  18. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Depew, NY
    Posts
    11,768
    Sorry, I though this was a fictional account of how something should work and not a real inquiry.

    I would think that a real life process for longevity would work better in younger populations, very much like vaccination. My kids got the chickenpox vaccination no problem. As an adult working with children, I received the same vaccination but it carried a different set of warning for side effects. I opted for the shot because I've had chickenpox several times, each one was very low grade and I personally doubt I ever developed whatever is necessary for immunity. I had like 12 little poxes each time, but the last was up my nose and in my throat. That sucked. I wouldn't wish that on my students, some of which have health issues which prevent timely vaccination.

    I had a round of minor surgery when I wanted the shot, but no one would do that. I had to wait like 6 months before a doctor with give me something they give to kids on a specific birthday. My doctor would honor my logic enough to give me the vaccination on request, but not right after surgery. There is logic and there is better, safer logic.

    You'd have two models of delivery if it worked differently for two different age groups. With children it should lay fallow until needed, while adults should receive some sort of stabilizing procedure before receiving it. Assuming it works like an immunization, one group would have a rather simple procedure while the other has other risks and steps. I don't want to be eternally 80 when I could be eternally 25. I would think that one would be easier and cheaper than the other.

    Sadly, perhaps the stabilizing effect for the elderly might not be as effective as treating someone who is youthful. There might be a practical case where the longevity treatment would be viewed as worthless. On the positive side, a low valuation of a good or service tends to drive prices down, at least when market forces are in play.

    I've always thought of researching this concept of what a "customer" is in market, because I pay for a lot of things for my family but the company producing the good wants to either treat us all as different entities (car insurance, restaurants), another is agnostic to the end user (electricity, water, gas) and a third acknowledges the group but has poor discrimination of individuals (Google Music, Health Insurance). It's such a "simple thing", that they don't really touch on that in basic economic classes even though each and every one of us deals with dozens of systems like this everyday.
    Solfe

  19. #109
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Regarding wealth, I know many people reject the idea of wealth caps no matter how high. But what about periodic pruning?

    (Keeping in mind of course, that this is all just idle speculation.)

    Every hundred years of life, everyone gets their possessions tallied up, and anyone with over a billion dollars or equivalent puts half of it into a fund to pay for something useful to all. It may be UBI, longevity/health care, housing, something beneficial.

    Pro, the super rich are still super rich, and they also still have the ability to get more money.
    Con, this will require banks etc to allow outside examination of private accounts. Also, the ultra rich are already very good at hiding their money. You'll see folks with "only" $999,999 to their name.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  20. #110
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Sorry, I though this was a fictional account of how something should work and not a real inquiry.
    It's real, though no reason it can't inform fiction too. Though any SF about such a rapidly changing field will become outdated quickly.

    You'd have two models of delivery if it worked differently for two different age groups. With children it should lay fallow until needed, while adults should receive some sort of stabilizing procedure before receiving it. Assuming it works like an immunization, one group would have a rather simple procedure while the other has other risks and steps.
    I don't currently know of many longevity treatments applicable to young people except caloric restriction, or anything that stabilizes the aging rate. Most research is focussed on repairing the damage done by aging. For the young, simple preventative maintenance for good health is already well established: Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, regular checkups etc.

    I don't want to be eternally 80 when I could be eternally 25.
    Same. But if I'm kept alive forever at 80 I can wait until the state of the art advances enough to make me 25 again.

    There might be a practical case where the longevity treatment would be viewed as worthless.
    For those who don't want it, it's always worthless.

    It's such a "simple thing", that they don't really touch on that in basic economic classes even though each and every one of us deals with dozens of systems like this everyday.
    Economists don't have a vested interest in pragmatism, they already have jobs, especially when the economy is bad!
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  21. #111
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,565
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I don't currently know of many longevity treatments applicable to young people except caloric restriction, or anything that stabilizes the aging rate. Most research is focussed on repairing the damage done by aging. For the young, simple preventative maintenance for good health is already well established: Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, regular checkups etc.
    I think you could imagine something like this: if you can develop a drug that will stop telomeres from being lost without causing cancer in the process (not an easy problem), then it might help to stop you from aging, so it would help to maintain you at your current age but wouldn't rejuvenate you. Or for example, a powerful antioxidant that prevents damage to DNA, but doesn't fix existing damage.
    As above, so below

  22. #112
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I think you could imagine something like this: if you can develop a drug that will stop telomeres from being lost without causing cancer in the process (not an easy problem), then it might help to stop you from aging, so it would help to maintain you at your current age but wouldn't rejuvenate you. Or for example, a powerful antioxidant that prevents damage to DNA, but doesn't fix existing damage.
    I can't find anything that backs that up, though that gets back into the whole fiction/speculation thing again. But I suppose it could happen.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  23. #113
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,565
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I can't find anything that backs that up, though that gets back into the whole fiction/speculation thing again. But I suppose it could happen.
    That’s all I was saying, that it could happen, not that I have any reason to think it will. I was just speculating on what could happen, so I wouldn’t expect you to find information.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    As above, so below

  24. #114
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    The problem with longevity treatments AND organ donation is, the random ways of dying are contrary to longevity and organ donation. If the only way people die in the future is serious accidents or horrible diseases, neither organ donation or further longevity works.
    If we ever reach a point where no one dies except by accident, then they'll probably no longer need organ transplants, it'll be grow-your-own. Probably be a long way towards beating diseases, too.

    Why would further longevity not work?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  25. #115
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Do we really want grouchy, forgetful, vindictive old codgers hanging around for a few more decades? Leaders in their 90's+?
    As opposed to what we have now?

    Grouchy and forgetful are largely factors of physical aging, we may be able to reverse those effects*. Vindictive? That's a matter of socialization.

    *Eventually we will run out of memory, but not for lack of recall, rather lack of storage space.


    But if you want something approaching a merit process, wealth should be a negating process: When you have used your fair share of the earth's limited resources, you step aside. (For most Americans, that would mean terminating us in our mid-thirties.)
    Run, Logan, run!

    But why kill them? You could just take away their money, if that's your goal.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  26. #116
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,565
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Grouchy and forgetful are largely factors of physical aging, we may be able to reverse those effects*.
    Forgetful, sure. But do people really get grumpy as they get older?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    As above, so below

  27. #117
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Forgetful, sure. But do people really get grumpy as they get older?
    https://www.alternativesforseniors.c...r-and-seniors/

    Natural changes in our bodies as we age can cause crankiness. The natural decrease in testosterone in men, for example, can cause an increase in irritability. Menopause also affects women in a similar manner due to hormonal changes.
    Add to that a constellation of nonmedical reasons like frustration with diminished capacity.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  28. #118
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    13,565
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    But notice that the quote says "can cause crankiness," not "causes crankiness."

    I had read this earlier.

    https://realdoctorstu.com/2012/07/02...t-more-grumpy/
    As above, so below

  29. #119
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    36,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    But notice that the quote says "can cause crankiness," not "causes crankiness."

    I had read this earlier.

    https://realdoctorstu.com/2012/07/02...t-more-grumpy/
    Increased iritability's maybe not inevitable but it happens an awful lot in my experience. Rejuvenating the brain and endocrine balance might reduce some of the contributing factors.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  30. #120
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    3,154
    Longevity is apparently in the telomeres, which protect DNA from damage.

    https://phys.org/news/2019-07-telome...-lifespan.html
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
    — Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •