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Thread: Okay... So the sun is dead, what happens to Jupiter?

  1. #1

    Okay... So the sun is dead, what happens to Jupiter?

    I have had a question in the back of my mind for a while now, and rather stupidly I forgot to ask it when I visited JPL, (to busy drooling on the mars rovers being assembled)

    Anyway, What will happen to Jupiter after the death of the sun several billion years from now?

    Assuming Cetrus Paribus, given that Jupiter outputs more energy than it receives from the sun, how will Jupiter function in absence of the sun?

    What is left of the sun will be just as dense, so the dead and crunchy planets will still be orbiting it,

    Could it remain an active planet?

    It is pretty much agreed that Mercury and maybe Venus will be consumed and Earth and Mars will fry - but I can't seem to find anything of a discussion reguarding the fate of the outer planets with the death of the solar system.

    It's just something that has been wracking my brain for a while now, and I just have not gotten around to asking anyone.

    I am not expecting a FOX special on the topic,

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    Jupiter after Solar death

    Just bumping this up - I think it's an interesting question.
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    Some wild speculation...

    Assuming no foreign body disturbs the planets and assuming the system doesn't pass through a dense nebula, I would expect Jupiter to lose kinetic energy, shrink, and freeze solid after the sun stops nuking us with radiation. The mass of Jupiter will be greater than it is now, from the capture of solar wind, space dust, and unlucky minor planets. But it won't be enough to promote it above the planetary title. I'm going to guess (someone will correct me if wrong) that almost all nuclear material will have been expended long before the sun died.

    If we pass through a nebula while the sun is active, I would expect the solar wind to gently push away the interstellar dust and gas so that there is not enough near Jupiter to turn it into a star.

    If we pass into a nebula after the sun dies, then we will probably be out of it long before anything substantial accumulates around either the sun or Jupiter. There will be more contact with the nebular gas with the sun dead.

    If a foreign body ejects Jupiter from the system, then I expect it to cool down more quickly away from the sun. It will rapidly (cosmicly speaking) cool until it reaches a stable temperature by nuclear energy, then will cool more slowly after that.

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    I just saw a special on the Science Channel about the Solar System. The indication was that Saturn would have most of its gas stripped away by the increased intensity of the solar wind in the latter part of the Sun's red giant phase.

    I found it curious that they mentioned Saturn specifically in this section. I don't know what the reason for this was...as if the other planets won't suffer a similar fate. I could see if Uranus or Neptune was far enough away that they would retain most of their atmosphere, but Jupiter is a puzzle. Of course, Jupiter is also more dense than Saturn...maybe its gravity would hold onto most of its atmosphere while Saturn, with its low density, would lose most of its atmosphere.

    I also know that as the Sun loses mass, the orbtial radius of the planets will increase. Not sure where that would come into play.

    Rob

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    Hale_Bopp:

    Jupiter is a "deeper" gravity well than Saturn is, but Jupiter would also be closer to the Red Giant sun and, therefore, ought to receive more solar wind (not to mention red solar radiation*). Wouldn't the two kinda cancel each other out, and give Jupiter roughly the same fate as Saturn?



    *) Yep, that's right: When the sun goes off the main sequence and becomes a Red Giant, Superman will be robbed of his powers.

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    What would be the implications for the major moons would they just go into solar orbit?

    Or would they have long since spiraled into Jupiter?

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    The white dwarf sun will change the ambient temperature of Jupiter somewhat, but really most of the core temperature is determined by planetary structure and self-energy anyway. The moons of Jupiter will continue to orbit Jupiter since there is no difference in the gravity of the Sun as it evolves out of the main sequence (it basically stays the same mass).

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    Quote Originally Posted by traztx
    Some wild speculation...
    OK, Gaia grows up into a strong young woman, and elopes with Neptune, and they adopt Pluto. Jupiter gets planetoids just thinking about it, and Saturn franchises her ring system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilopi
    Quote Originally Posted by traztx
    Some wild speculation...
    OK, Gaia grows up into a strong young woman, and elopes with Neptune, and they adopt Pluto. Jupiter gets planetoids just thinking about it, and Saturn franchises her ring system.
    Meanwhile, Mars and Mercury start up a rock band and recruit Ceres and Vesta as backup singers.
    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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    Yep, see, in three or four billion years, they could mature a lot.

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    This conversation happened before I was born. Like 6 months before I was born. This website is old o_o

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaiahTheFilmer View Post
    This conversation happened before I was born. Like 6 months before I was born. This website is old o_o
    Whippersnapper

    There're lotsa old geezers here. *refuses to look in the mirror*
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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaiahTheFilmer View Post
    This conversation happened before I was born. Like 6 months before I was born. This website is old o_o
    I think we had considered waiting for you, but decided not to.
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

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    14 years is old?.....it's all relative....I have few relatives I consider old.....er

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaiahTheFilmer View Post
    This conversation happened before I was born. Like 6 months before I was born. This website is old o_o
    That's not old. I own T-shirts older than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaiahTheFilmer View Post
    This conversation happened before I was born. Like 6 months before I was born. This website is old o_o
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    This isn't OTB, folks. Stop the off-topic nonsense please.
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    All we are saying is that we are the red dwarf of forums.
    ...I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hale_Bopp View Post
    I just saw a special on the Science Channel about the Solar System. The indication was that Saturn would have most of its gas stripped away by the increased intensity of the solar wind in the latter part of the Sun's red giant phase.

    I found it curious that they mentioned Saturn specifically in this section. I don't know what the reason for this was...as if the other planets won't suffer a similar fate. I could see if Uranus or Neptune was far enough away that they would retain most of their atmosphere, but Jupiter is a puzzle. Of course, Jupiter is also more dense than Saturn...maybe its gravity would hold onto most of its atmosphere while Saturn, with its low density, would lose most of its atmosphere.

    I also know that as the Sun loses mass, the orbtial radius of the planets will increase. Not sure where that would come into play.

    Rob
    There are hot Jupiters losing billions of tonnes per year. Despite this they're still Jupiter mass and when you calculate it, they will often outlast the main sequence lifetime of their host stars. Jupiter could lose a billion tonnes a day for a billion years and lose only 0.02% of its mass.

    The red giant stage won't last as long as the main sequence stage. So that is good, but what I don't know is how the red giant insolation at Jupiter distance will compare to a current hot Jupiter.

    Based on these hot Jupiters I would bet Jupiter would survive into the white dwarf stage as a slightly smaller gas giant. The orbit will be further out due to mass loss from the sun.

    It's internal heat source will be reduced but not absent.

    So if I had to bet on it I would put my money on Jupiter being somewhat similar to what it is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    This isn't OTB, folks. Stop the off-topic nonsense please.
    Quote Originally Posted by astrotimer View Post
    All we are saying is that we are the red dwarf of forums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzb View Post
    The red giant stage won't last as long as the main sequence stage. So that is good, but what I don't know is how the red giant insolation at Jupiter distance will compare to a current hot Jupiter.
    I'm not an exoplanet guy but my quick estimate is that it would be a lot less. The Sun is expected to expand to roughly one AU or a bit more. At least I recall people saying Mars will definitely not impact the Sun.

    Jupiter lies at 5.2 AU and will move out a bit further as the Sun loses mass. So it will still be far further from the Sun than Mars is now (1.5 AU). So nowhere near hot Jupiter territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Alexander View Post
    I'm not an exoplanet guy but my quick estimate is that it would be a lot less. The Sun is expected to expand to roughly one AU or a bit more. At least I recall people saying Mars will definitely not impact the Sun.

    Jupiter lies at 5.2 AU and will move out a bit further as the Sun loses mass. So it will still be far further from the Sun than Mars is now (1.5 AU). So nowhere near hot Jupiter territory.
    I think the red giant sun will be 1000 times as luminous as it is currently?

    If true, the insolation (Watts/sq m) at 5.2 AU will be about 37 times what it is at 1AU currently.

    So yes, this is probably less than a Hot Jupiter, which orbit at typically 0.02AU. 2500 times the insolation at 1AU.

    Also there is no reason it should be tidally locked, nor have its satellites gravitationally stripped, although I guess the ices will be totally lost.

    So do you agree there should be little change in Jupiter itself? I think there could be major changes to its moons though.

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    There would be a major impact on the moons, titan will become habitable, so if humanity is some how still alive by surviving the 10% luminosity increase 1 billion years from now, we would have to move to titan if we want a chance to survive, but that's if we survive on the uninhabitable version of earth 1 billion years from now, but assuming by how our tech is advancing, for all we know, by then we could be travelling around the solar system, colonizing mars, stuff like that, but we wouldn't be able to leave our local cluster of galaxy's because the universes constant expansion, so once the sun becomes a white dwarf, we could go into the heat pockets (idk what their called srry), and possibly survive there for another billion years, before we're exhausted of options and die off. the universe is cornering us

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    Jupiters energy or mass would not increase to my knowledge but however, It would be sent hurdling in space if the sun lost its gravity, but most likely jupiter would revolve around the sun until it is destroyed, because after the sun becomes a red giant it will still rotate. The sun turns white dwarf? I dont know if it will stay in by gravity but if it does then it will be there until destroyed by black hole etc, but lets say as a white dwarf, the sun lost its gravity, therefor jupiter would be sent into space, after sent into space we would have to imagine what difficulties it is having, it would have a chance to be sent into black holes, or it could run into a different star, there's been a gas giant discovered thats twice the size of jupiter, that some people are calling jupiter 2, that came from a different star and is running into a difficulty our jupiter might run into. [B]Being sucked up by a star.[B] If it was to get to close to a star, it could easily be sucked up, if you didn't know, but if it gets caught in the gravity of another main sequence star, then it could possibly survive, but eventually it would be wiped out, but lets say, it doesn't find a main sequence star, and flies into a black hole then it could pass the event horizon, that is after being slowly compressed into a string of atoms, but lets say it some how survives the black hole (dont ask how im only 14 ._.) and/or this black hole is a white hole, and it flies through it. white holes are black holes that supposedly lead into a different universe, or some believe, back in time, so maybe jupiter could go through it and possibly survive, like if it goes into the past, or into a new universe, and flies through space debri, etc, it could possibly become a star, as jupiter times eight, would be big enough to become a red dwarf, so jupiter has a possibility to become a star if it were to somehow go through a white hole unscaved, but we all know that wont happen. If it went into a white hole it would come out into a different universe/back in time, as a string of atoms, so we could rule that off the list, what would most likely happen is it would end up cooling down and its weather activity would calm down, as its winds would slow, until the planet eventually freezes over, or until it flies into range of another star, but in around 10 quantillion years (I think its that much) it would probably be sucked into a black hole/white hole, as the universe would be mainly composed of that by then (if nothing religious happens before then.). But yeah, thats what I think.

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    If I am not mistaken, our best models predict that the Sun will not expel more than about half its current mass before settling down as a white dwarf. Every article I have seen has it hanging on to the planets, which will simply spiral out into larger orbits as the expelled material escapes into deep space.

    A loose planet that does not collide with a star will not be sucked into it or even captured unless the encounter is a combined close encounter of at least three bodies. If it is just the rogue planet and a single star, the planet will fly by and go out in the same sort of path that it came in, and thus escape. A black hole would be no different from an ordinary star in a near miss such as this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    Every article I have seen has it hanging on to the planets, which will simply spiral out into larger orbits as the expelled material escapes into deep space.
    I'm trying to think how this would work without resorting to the mathematics, which are surely a bit complicated.

    But if a planet is in a circular orbit, and a very sudden expulsion of matter occurs, then I think it just settles into an elliptical orbit with its closest approach to the new, smaller, sun wherever it happened to be when the expulsion took place.

    On the other hand, if the expulsion is nice and slow, spanning many many orbits, then I'm thinking the planet retains an approximately circular orbit, just in a slowly expanding circle.

    Does that sound right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutterfly View Post
    I'm trying to think how this would work without resorting to the mathematics, which are surely a bit complicated.

    But if a planet is in a circular orbit, and a very sudden expulsion of matter occurs, then I think it just settles into an elliptical orbit with its closest approach to the new, smaller, sun wherever it happened to be when the expulsion took place.

    On the other hand, if the expulsion is nice and slow, spanning many many orbits, then I'm thinking the planet retains an approximately circular orbit, just in a slowly expanding circle.

    Does that sound right?
    Yes, it sounds right. If the Sun expels half its matter suddenly, a simple calculation involving potential and kinetic energy shows that a planet that originally was in a circular orbit will now be at perihelion in a parabolic trajectory and thus will escape. For a gradual expulsion the calculation is more complex, and after close to 50 years away from the pertinent math I am too rusty to figure out how to do it. I am relying on a graph in Sky and Telescope, October 2017, which plots the outward migration of the planets as the Sun evolves. It shows the planets settling down about 1.9 times their current distances as the Sun reduces to about 1/2 its current mass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    Yes, it sounds right. If the Sun expels half its matter suddenly, a simple calculation involving potential and kinetic energy shows that a planet that originally was in a circular orbit will now be at perihelion in a parabolic trajectory and thus will escape. For a gradual expulsion the calculation is more complex, and after close to 50 years away from the pertinent math I am too rusty to figure out how to do it. I am relying on a graph in Sky and Telescope, October 2017, which plots the outward migration of the planets as the Sun evolves. It shows the planets settling down about 1.9 times their current distances as the Sun reduces to about 1/2 its current mass.
    True, but wouldn't gliese have already came by, and screwed up the planets rotation? That would mean they could shift to far, and escape their orbit, depending on how their left.
    So if jupiter were to not fly out of the solar system from all the stuff from gliese's exploration and the sun turning into a white dwarf, could be enough for jupiter to get ahold of some planets like mars, or saturn, or better yet, catapult it into space, so it could either hit an elliptical orbit, or straight up, ditch the solar system, on a cosmic quest to greatness, or uh, space dust, or a new orbit that would prolong its journey. What I'm saying is, jupiter could get launched out of our orbit, fortunately come across space dust (or not) and it COULD become a red dwarf eventually. This is jupiter that prevented the creation of a planet in the asteroid belts place, so its gonna be absorbing planets left and right, if it comes upon them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaiahTheFilmer View Post
    True, but wouldn't gliese have already came by, and screwed up the planets rotation? That would mean they could shift to far, and escape their orbit, depending on how their left.
    So if jupiter were to not fly out of the solar system from all the stuff from gliese's exploration and the sun turning into a white dwarf, could be enough for jupiter to get ahold of some planets like mars, or saturn, or better yet, catapult it into space, so it could either hit an elliptical orbit, or straight up, ditch the solar system, on a cosmic quest to greatness, or uh, space dust, or a new orbit that would prolong its journey. What I'm saying is, jupiter could get launched out of our orbit, fortunately come across space dust (or not) and it COULD become a red dwarf eventually. This is jupiter that prevented the creation of a planet in the asteroid belts place, so its gonna be absorbing planets left and right, if it comes upon them.
    Which Gliese star are you referring to here? How close to the Sun is it expected to come, and how much uncertainty is there?

    You are now giving us a hodgepodge of what-ifs, for which the Sun's being alive or dead is irrelevant.

    Even if a close encounter with another star ejects Jupiter from its orbit, the chances that it could ever accrete enough material to become even a minimal red dwarf star are slim to none. The interstellar debris is simply too dispersed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    [...] If the Sun expels half its matter suddenly, [...]
    Wouldn't that be a perfect thing to try in tony873004's gravity simulator? I've tried but can't quite get it to do what I want.
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