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Thread: Has any HB dared challenge Gene Kranz?

  1. #31
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    You're half right, the original tapes were reused, but they had already made multiple copies of the video from them, so they didn't tape over any irreplaceable data.
    These were highly specialized tapes, made to order, and when they had to record the data from a later mission they basically got hit by getting a bad batch delivered so they ran out of any unused tapes so had to use some they'd already copied to other media.

    It doesn't really matter what you believe, it's well documented that it did happen.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    So according to you Apollo was faked.

    Dare I ask your opinion of how the footage was faked? How the rocks were gathered? How non-Americans were able to point dishes at the Moon and receive signals from it? How astronauts were heard to discuss live sports scores when their signals were coming from the Moon?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    I was at a very dear friends wedding around a year ago. I took a great many photographs on the day with a digital SLR. I subsequently downloaded these, copied them onto flash drives to distribute to nearby friends, and emailed selected pictures to more distant friends. I then deleted the pictures in the camera so that I could re-use the memory card.

    Do I have the "original" pictures in the medium in which they were originally captured? No. Are those pictures lost? No, of course not. I can go to at least three drives in this room and access every picture that I took that day.

    Is any of the Apollo 11 television footage lost? No, of course not. The entire argument is absurd, even by Hoax Proponent standards.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    So you intend to close your mind to the facts?

    Your statement implies that you think it is only video tapes that were reused, and of course it would be hard to believe that that was done, although we all know that mistakes do happen.

    However, it is not the case at all that video-only tapes were reused. Note the word used by AGN Fuel above: telemetry tapes, not TV tapes. They were special telemetry tapes which simply included the TV images as part of the information they held, which, I understand, was data about the many spacecraft systems, information from the computer, information from the medical sensors the astronauts wore, and voice recordings of the astronauts. Others could describe the tapes better than I can, but please understand that they were far more complex things than mere video tapes and required special machines to read them. They could not be read by any of the machines normally used to read video-only tapes, and this is one of the reasons why they were reused. It was not only the telemetry tapes from Apollo 11 that were reused, those from other missions were reused too.

    The video on the telemetry tapes was extracted, and better copies than those usually seen by the public were found during the search for the original telemetry tapes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviousman View Post
    Yet another HB "fact" proven to be anything but factual.
    It is also yet another example of that Selective Credibility so common to believers of conspiracy theories: if Kranz says the missions happened he is lying but if he says the recordings cannot be played then he is telling the truth. It is like the bizarre way that many CT believers use NASA data to prove that NASA lies.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    And yet you are capable of believing that hundreds of thousands of people all round the world - including the USA's enemies, schoolchildren and other independent parties - deceived the public for over 40 years and not one of them has ever spoken out?

    Never mind all the other physical evidence that demonstrate without doubt that the missions happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    And yet you are capable of believing that hundreds of thousands of people all round the world - including the USA's enemies, schoolchildren and other independent parties - deceived the public for over 40 years and not one of them has ever spoken out?

    Never mind all the other physical evidence that demonstrate without doubt that the missions happened.
    Well, it's the old favorite of conspiracy theorists everywhere. The omnipotence/incompetence model. NASA is clever enough to pull off a massive fraud that has fooled the world for four decades, but is inept enough have erased a vital box of tapes (which most people didn't know about anyway) and then publically admitted to it. For rationalization purposes, it's always what you want it to be when you need it to be.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    Gene Kranz said, "even if we had it, we don't have the machines to play it back"
    He may believe that, but it does not mean that such statement is absolutely true. The LOIRP people have managed to hunt down both the Lunar Orbiter telemetry tapes and the obsolete drives needed to read them and have successfully reconstructed the imagery. In fact, they got better detail than the original releases, due to all that progress in signal processing electronics over the last 50 years.

    Which brings another point: why would NASA bother sending Lunar Orbiters to photograph the Moon in detail, if the whole Apollo thing was a hoax anyway?

  9. #39
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    I for one would have loved to see an HB face up to a Gene Krantz in his late 40's

  10. #40
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    They weren't video tapes, they were the telemetry tapes, they contain a lot more than the video feed. As has been pointed out the video is still available, what do you think you see when you watch video of Apollo 11?
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  11. #41
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    NASA does not have the monopoly on missing tapes yet we accept other things have happened despite this.

    Back to this award winning Aron chap. What has he won and what in? Just curious, it seems to be dangled as some sort of authority?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedward View Post
    Back to this award winning Aron chap. What has he won and what in? Just curious, it seems to be dangled as some sort of authority?
    I tried checking IMDB, as that would seem the obvious place to list the awards he'd gotten for his work and found that they listed exactly none.
    His linked-in page has this to way:
    Full List of Awards and Grants at this link
    Includes: 2 Fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts & Ranen's "Death Row Art Star " was 1 of 10 Documentaries selected to compete for best Short Documentary at IDFA (International Documentary Festival Amsterdam)...Ranen's DID WE GO? was selected for MOMA (Museum of Modern Art in New York City) New Documentary Series. His newest documentary "Black Hair" has more then 380,000 views on youtube.
    Contrast those 380,000 views with the 57,348,624 views the little kitty song has and you can color me mightily unimpressed.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    Not to be rude, but it doesn't matter what you believe, but what you can prove. You have John Sarkissian's statements as given by AGN Fuel, versus your beliefs. Why should your beliefs override the statements of someone who actually ran the facility?

    And whether the tapes exist or not, or were destroyed or not, how does that disprove all of the rest of the overwhelming evidence that the Apollo landings took place exactly as described?

    Please consider those direct questions that need to be answered.
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  14. #44
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    Now I'm putting on my moderator hat....

    GG300 - there are multiple direct questions to you, from several members, that have to be answered or at least addressed (see the rules of BAUT if you have not done so). You need to start working through those direct questions.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    And who is to decide what is kept and what isn't. Sure; the recordings can be of historical significance, but you are not in thier shoes at the time the decision was made.
    There are probably people who want to see all the paper scribbles that the controllers were making. Maybe some other artifacts are important to some people. What about all those contractors that put their time and effort into the project but lament about lost information within their own company? Why do you think your opinion on what shouldn't have been lost is the important one?

    In the end, how do you preserve all these artifacts to please all those people with differing opinions on what must be saved? Where do you store it all? How do you access it?

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    A phony HB is a person who just pretends not to believe astronauts landed on the moon.
    Quite a lot of the major hoax authors don't seem to believe their own hype. For them it's just a clever way to make money without doing much work. You should hear how they bicker and argue amongst themselves over "territory" when they think no one of consequence is listening.

    Much like the fake moon hoax documentary "Dark Side of the Moon"
    Yes, I'm quite familiar with William Karel's film. And you would be surprised to know how many people think it's real, even after Karel's very prominent disclaimers. Which brings us to your next point.

    All this is done in order to stop the moon hoax claims across the internet.
    Which makes me believe astronauts never landed on the moon.
    Why else would they do this ?
    In Karel's case it was to show how gullible you all are. There's absolutely no technical, historical, or scientific reason to believe the Moon landings were fake. It's a theory concocted out of nothing except a firm desire to doubt something. Karel left many, many clues in his film that it wasn't serious. And at the end he jumps out and says, "I made all this up. Ask yourself how ready you were to believe it. Now ask yourself whether you should be watching television more critically." Yet many people still cite it as the "smoking gun" video that proves the hoax. They instead prove they don't really pay attention to what the evidence is, as long as it agrees with what they already believe.

    Along with my colleagues here, I don't see your line of reasoning. I don't see how fake hoax videos stop the hoax theories. Everyone still has free speech. If Karel or that guy you mentioned wants to point out the absurdity of the hoax claimants' logic and methods, that his free speech. Generally we believe that the cure to speech we disagree with is more speech. If the hoax theories happen to stop, it's because they become less credible.

    You seem to think that opposition to the hoax theory would not exist unless the hoax theory were true. I really don't see how that logic works. If you were wrong about something, I would expect there to be lots of opposition too. If you were wrongly accused of, say, unlawful business practices, wouldn't you defend yourself? In fact, wouldn't you defend yourself quite vigorously? Wouldn't you, if appropriate, show the absurdity of your accuser's claims? Sorry, but having people disagree with you doesn't mean you're right. You're not necessary "onto something."

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    Your disbelief is irrelevant. When you have your own space program, you can run it any way you see fit. But as long as you're limited to commenting on someone else's work, your coulda-shoulda-woulda's don't really establish a standard for authenticity.

    The hidden premise to your disblief is the mistaken notion that people at the time considered these tapes original copies, of great historic value. That is not true. That is a modern reinterpretation of the situation put forward by people who don't care to study the story. You don't get to judge the decisions of people who, for very good reasons, didn't share your expectations.

    As others have said, these were not videotapes, these were telemetry tapes. They are very large, very expensive, and can only be played on telemetry recorders, which are also in turn very large, very expensive, very temperamental, and these days also very rare. The telemetry signal from a spacecraft in the 1960s and 1970s consisted of several channels of largely analog data modulated on a complex carrier signal. The Apollo 11 television signal -- which was not a standard video signal, but rather a special compressed format that was used only for a few space missions -- was part of this complex set of signals. Those signals are what the tape records.

    In the form received by the ground stations and subsequently recorded on the tape, it was useless. It could not be played on a regular television or sent to the television networks. It had to first be converted to a standard signal. This was done using a custom-built equipment the size of two refrigerators. It extracted the television portion of the signal, converted it to standard formats, and then recorded that extracted and converted signal on standard (at the time) broadcast videotape.

    That converted signal was considered the original recording, and that survives. The telemetry tape, containing the special compressed format, was treated as the backup. In case anything went wrong with the real-time conversion hardware, the telemetry tapes could be played back after the mission and the repaired big clunky converter could be used then to produce the standard-format signals after the fact. But that wasn't necessary. The converter worked fine, the broadcast went out live, and the standard-format NTSC first-generation recordings were carefully preserved.

    The NTSC-format video is the only one that's usable. After Apollo 11, the slow-scan converter was decommissioned and replaced by the system that took advantage of the bigger bandwidth available on subsequent missions that used high-gain antennas and their own S-band channel for television. But that's incompatible with the old telemetry format. The NTSC conversion made live during the missions was the most faithful that could be made, and from the engineers' perspective, the most faithful that could ever be made. Any subsequent attempts to extract the video from the telemetry would produce a video signal no better than the one they had in hand.

    Now, decades hence of course, we have better methods of handling those analog signals and extracting more information from them. And an organization has painstakingly restored and preserved in working order one of the old telemetry recorders. But that was unanticipated in 1969. They had what they needed, so the telemetry tapes were placed dutifully in storage. It's not as if they just threw them in the Dumpster when the spacecraft landed.

    I mentioned these tapes were large and very expensive. They're also environmentally unfriendly because the binder (the glue that holds the magnetic material to the plastic substrate) was made from a whaling product. The manufacturers of those tapes were eventually forced to find a greener process. They did, but it didn't work as well.

    Keep in mind that these telemetry recorders are large, clunky, and expensive machines. You don't just pick one up in the showroom. They're made largely by hand, on an ARO basis. You don't just have warehouses of them sitting around. So after Apollo was over, the machines were immediately retasked to other space missions. They work for unmanned missions too. In fact, for unmanned missions the telemetry recorder is considered a Criticality 1 item. Without that recorder, you have no mission.

    So when the new environmentally-friendly tapes were tested and found to be unsatisfactory, NASA found itself in quite a pickle. They had no way to record the data from missions that were already in progress and running out of good tape. The tape manufacturer couldn't fix the process in time. There were no other manufacturers for it -- remember, it's not just Panasonic VHS tape we're talking about. So the only course of action left was to reuse the good tapes from previous missions. Since the choice was between archived data of dubious value (since more useful copies existed), and new data from new missions, it's pretty much a no-brainer.

    Real history works this way. We have practically no film from D-Day, because all the film from the battlefield was loaded onto one boat to be taken back out to the fleet. That boat was sunk and took all the film with it to the bottom of the English Channel. Just because something seems important, or is considered decades later to be important, does not mean it will invariably be preserved intact.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    All this is done in order to stop the moon hoax claims across the internet.
    I notice that hasn't been particularly effective.

    Which makes me believe astronauts never landed on the moon.
    Let me see if I understand you...because there are some real irrational hoax believers who make the silliest of claims, that makes you believe the landings were faked??

    Sorry, I just don't see it

    Why else would they do this ?
    Why do people make irrational claims?...you mean such as yourself.

    I do not have a "theory" that covers all options. But I don't understand why this means "hoax" to you

    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    What you do or do not believe is in no way evidence of a hoax. Evidence must be a lot more than just a "feeling".
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  19. #49
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    GG300, Jay Utah just took some time and effort to address the tape issue. I'm hoping you will be considerate enough to answer that post with your thoughts, either in agreement or rebuttal. Or to put it in the form of a direct question you are required to answer:

    What is your response to Jay Utah's Post # 47?
    "There are powers in this universe beyond anything you know. There is much you have to learn. Go to your homes. Go and give thought to the mysteries of the universe. I will leave you now, in peace." --Galaxy Being

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    GG300. There are some rather interesting comparisons going on at the moment. In the UK analogue is to be dead by 2012. There have been numerous formats for recording and play back both domestic and professional and even now some news crews are using a hard disk or memory card rather than tape and recently tape was the bees knees. So there are a multitude of media that may be about to go down the plug hole in favour of what digital has to offer but the upshot is in a few years time who will be able to play back for example a Betacam or Betacam SX tape? I no longer have a VHS and I have a few tapes left that I want converted before that is too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    No one would re-use the Apollo 11 television tape recordings, for some other recordings, I simply refuse to believe that !
    They weren't television tape recordings, they were raw telemetry recordings. Among the telemetry was a low-bandwidth slow-scan video signal that had already been converted to a format useful for TV and recorded on actual television tapes. We still have those.


    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    You're half right, the original tapes were reused, but they had already made multiple copies of the video from them, so they didn't tape over any irreplaceable data.
    These were highly specialized tapes, made to order, and when they had to record the data from a later mission they basically got hit by getting a bad batch delivered so they ran out of any unused tapes so had to use some they'd already copied to other media.
    They weren't archival tapes in the first place...they were never supposed to be more than a temporary storage medium to hold and transport the raw telemetry until it could be processed into a more usable form. Once this was done, they were free to be reused. It so happens that decades later, we developed better technology for doing the conversion from slow-scan TV and could now get somewhat better quality video out if we had the original tapes, but they had no reason to anticipate that there would be the capability and desire to do this, and they badly needed those tapes for use in other missions.

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    OK, several of you here claim that the data from the original tapes were transferred to other media.

    If the Apollo 11 data is not lost, where is it ?

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Now I'm putting on my moderator hat....

    GG300 - there are multiple direct questions to you, from several members, that have to be answered or at least addressed (see the rules of BAUT if you have not done so). You need to start working through those direct questions.
    GG300,

    You have work to do before you ask questions of others. And there is no obligation for anyone to answer your questions (they may if they wish). In your next post you need to start dealing with the questions (and it would be good to use the quote function, so we know who you are responding to). If you do not, you will be infracted.
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    If the Apollo 11 data is not lost, where is it ?
    Are you seriously saying you have never seen the footage of Armstrong climbing down the stairs?

    NASA Apollo 11 Video library can get you started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    OK, several of you here claim that the data from the original tapes were transferred to other media.

    If the Apollo 11 data is not lost, where is it ?
    Exactly what information do you think is lost?

  26. #56
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    Just to point to some new "evidence", but India has been to the moon with a probe for some great imagery but no lander. Japan has done the same but also made a "hard landing" - ok they crashed on purpose. China is intent on going to the moon in what looks to be a more up to date version of the Apollo craft. China's flight may force the US to go back, or cause some other nation(s) to upscale their space missions to include a mission to the moon.

    How could Apollo have NOT landed on the moon if people right now are using the same principles and heavily modified designs of the Apollo era craft to do similar missions today?

    On an aside, video is not everything. Many of the ancient Wonders of the World are no longer in existence, but there is little doubt that they are real despite the fact they are extraordinary.
    Last edited by Solfe; 2011-Oct-18 at 09:48 PM. Reason: capitialization of Wonders of the World.
    Solfe

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    They weren't archival tapes in the first place...they were never supposed to be more than a temporary storage medium...
    I can't emphasize this enough. They are not archival tapes.

    The video portion of the Apollo 11 telemetry stream was recorded appropriately on professional videotape. It was also delivered live to worldwide television news services. That's the archival copy, at least of the video portion.

    I answered this in a private message, but it bears answering here in public. The other portions of the signal were telemetered values such as Neil Armstrong's heart rate, the voltage on Main Bus A, the temperature of the RCS thrusters, the switch positions of the ECS console, and so forth. These were extracted and recorded on separate magnetic tape, typically the 9-track 6250 BPI computer tape that was relatively cheap and common at the time, or more typically on paper strip charts. Paper tape is easy to read (requiring only the Mark 1 eyeball) and easy to copy (just ask Xerox) and reasonably suitable for most post-mission analysis.

    The telemetry recorders were not the primary means of access to the telemetry during and after the missions. Mission analysts didn't say, "Hm, I wonder whether there were any guidance anomalies during Apollo 11's 1202 program alarms. Let's just pop that tape in the machine and play back the telemetry." Why? Because, as I said, the machines are large, expensive, and therefore in high demand for recording telemetry. Strip charts, videotape, and 9-track computer tape record the telemetry channels in real time as they are broken out. The recording exists briefly as a backup, or in some cases as the primary data source if the demultiplexing cannot provide enough real-time channels.

    Let me paint you a picture. Imagine a commercial kitchen refrigerator, one of those that's about a meter and a half wide and a bit over two meters tall. The left side is a patch panel. The right side is a tape drive and a control panel for adjusting each individual recording head. In the tape drive are the supply and takeup reels. Each is about 18 inches in diameter and a about an inch thick, made by Memorex. Tape speed is well over 100 inches per second, about ten times faster than a consumer reel-to-reel tape deck. You move these things around with forklifts.

    You don't just pop the tapes in and out either. The recorders are highly configurable, so you have to know the head position and bias settings for each of the several physical tape channels. Yes, I said they were clunky. Very powerful, flexible, and completely suited to the task of recording Apollo instrumentation. But not the sort of thing you deal with for routine analysis. The Unified S-band telemetry signal was a custom design. Therefore only a highly configurable recorder could record it, and only a highly configurable decoder and demultiplexer could break out the individual instrument signals. The TV image was just another "instrument" in the overall format. The goal is to get these data into universal formats as soon as possible so they can be disseminated amongst the various researchers.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    If the Apollo 11 data is not lost, where is it ?
    The television tapes are stored at a NASA archive. For about $90 they will make a copy of them for you in a modern format, since most people don't have equipment to read the old reel-to-reel videotapes.

    Since several people have commented on your claims that it was improper to erase the telemetry tapes, it would be nice if you would address them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by GG300 View Post
    OK, several of you here claim that the data from the original tapes were transferred to other media.

    If the Apollo 11 data is not lost, where is it ?
    GG300,

    You have work to do before you ask questions of others. And there is no obligation for anyone to answer your questions (they may if they wish). In your next post you need to start dealing with the questions (and it would be good to use the quote function, so we know who you are responding to). If you do not, you will be infracted.


    I am not interested in discussing, moon rocks, lro images, stars, lights and shadows and a million other moon hoax things you bring up.

    I asked you a simple question, where is the data from the original missing tapes ? If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine by me. I'll ask somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelHS View Post
    So... people try to stop the Moon hoax claims and that means the claims are true? It couldn't just mean that people are offended by the hoax claims because they're based on ignorance, misinformation, and outright lies?
    And I asked you this question in response to post #22, would you like to answer it, please?

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