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Thread: Virtual Reality Of The Brain

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    Virtual Reality Of The Brain

    The photons from the sun hit and enter my eye. My brain creates a way of understanding (the object) as the image I see. If some technology was able to place an image of a rocket in my head (only in my head not anyone viewing me). I could walk to the image of the rocket and take off. what would everyone viewing see?
    Last edited by Ear; 2018-Nov-01 at 07:39 PM.

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    If I were present I'm guessing that I would see you walking over to a spot and proceeding to go through the motions of strapping yourself into an invisible rocket looking pleased with yourself, well, at least I believe that's what my photons were telling me ;-)?
    Last edited by Spacedude; 2018-Nov-01 at 09:21 PM.

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    people would view the person or astronaut floating in mid air?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    If some technology was able to place an image of a rocket in my head (only in my head not anyone viewing me). I could walk to the image of the rocket and take off. what would everyone viewing see?
    No. You could not "walk to the image". It is not at a distance; it is in your head. The image would remain at the same distance and size no matter how much you tried to walk toward it. It is, after all, an image, of a rocket, seen at a distance.

    Now, you could enhance the illusion with some sophisticated equipment, making the image change size in response to your motion. The image would then appear to get larger to you as you moved. In theory, the enhanced dynamic image might enlarge so much that you think you're standing within arm's reach of the hatch.

    And then you'd reach out for the handle - and there would be nothing there. Your hand would appear to pass right through the handle, but you would feel nothing.
    Last edited by DaveC426913; 2018-Nov-02 at 12:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    people would view the person or astronaut floating in mid air?
    You would not be able to float in mid air if it is just an image in your mind. It's actually possible to do what you are trying to do. Virtual reality for example. So if you war virtual reality glasses, you can see something that isn't really there. And you can reach out and try to touch it, but you can't because it's only in the glasses.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    people would view the person or astronaut floating in mid air?
    No. The image would only be an illusion. A purely mental construct. You could not stand on it any more than you could stand on a rainbow.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    The brain must understand the mass of an object?

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    The above answers to your question are good. I add this for some further illustration. There is an advertisement on TV for an insurance company that shows a teenager's VR POV for part of the commercial, and then shows his father and an insurance spokesperson observing him in the kitchen. The teenager is just in the kitchen wearing a headset. Good VR can supply an alternative to what you see around you, but it doesn't change where your flesh really is.
    Forming opinions as we speak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    The brain must understand the mass of an object?
    Understanding is not experiencing. Mass cannot be simulated, it either is there or it isn't.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    The photons from the sun hit and enter my eye. My brain creates a way of understanding (the object) as the image I see. If some technology was able to place an image of a rocket in my head (only in my head not anyone viewing me). I could walk to the image of the rocket and take off. what would everyone viewing see?
    Here is my take, for what it is worth. First of all, this can probably be done, or very soon will be done. See the following references.

    ============

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_identification

    https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/sc...ry?id=25319813
    Scientists Transmit Thoughts from one Brain to Another
    By COLUMN BY LEE DYE, Sep 7, 2014, 6:27 AM ET

    https://www.insidescience.org/video/telepathy-real
    Telepathy Is Real: How do we transmit information from one person to another?
    Friday, March 30, 2018 - 09:00; Alistair Jennings, Contributor
    "Now, I don’t want to alarm anyone, but telepathy, the act of transferring thoughts into someone else’s head is now real. As in, published-in-academic-papers real. People have now telepathically communicated with each other, monkeys have solved problems as a connected hive mind, and humans have even been given telepathic control of a rat."

    ===============

    You will have a device strapped over your head enabling the transmission of the information to you. Because your actual senses are not involved, your eyes and ears might be covered to prevent interference from real-world auditory and visual stimuli. From here, there are two ways it can go.

    One is like a Total Recall set-up, in which you are seated or lying down. People in another room will oversee what's going on. They might have monitors that show a generalized idea of what is happening in your VR world, though only you will see the full range of details, part of which might be based on your own experience. The rocket might look like an old V-2 of silver color, but your mind might add other details. Not sure about this.

    Why would you be lying down or sitting? If you are expected to move around a lot during a VR experience, you are at risk of falling from tripping or disorientation, as often happens in real life VR tries. (I've seen it.) The experience might be more like a REM-sleep dream. This is actually the safest way to do this if your other senses are dampened to allow the VR to override them. Tactile sensory information should be felt--if you touch something, you will feel it. If you think you are walking, you will feel the pavement on the soles of your feet.

    The second way is obviously for you to be up and walking around, which could prove dangerous should you try to sit in a VR chair that does not exist in real life. This strikes me as a bad way to go. We will see.

    A very good question.
    Last edited by Roger E. Moore; 2018-Nov-02 at 01:40 PM. Reason: add info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Understanding is not experiencing. Mass cannot be simulated, it either is there or it isn't.
    Mass cannot be simulated, but tactile input probably can, by sending the information directly into the brain like other sensory or thought input. The VR object could be made to feel hard, soft, squishy, gooey, liquid, etc., without necessarily putting a cover over the client's hands to actually stimulate them. Doing the latter might cause the person to "wake up".

    One of my nieces is very much into the VR thing. Between that and reading about the topic, the above seems reasonable.

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    More information for those interested. The first article goes on in detail about past tests and how they were done.


    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-pe...trolled-drones

    The Pentagon’s Wild Plan for Mind-Controlled Drones
    The U.S. military is testing a brain implant that might one day let users control drones with their minds—and for the drones to send signals back.

    David Axe, 09.19.18 4:52 AM ET

    The U.S. military has tested, multiple times, a brain implant that allows a human operator to simultaneously control, with their thoughts, up to three flying drones. Well, in theory. The tests, overseen by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), were computer simulations. And while they might eventually lead to actual mind control for flying robots, the technology is still in its infancy.

    The mind-controlled drone trials took place in Pittsburgh between June 2016 and January 2017, according to DARPA. “Using a bidirectional neural interface, a volunteer named Nathan Copeland was able to simultaneously steer a simulated lead aircraft and maintain formation of two, simulated unmanned support aircraft in a flight simulator,” Tim Kilbride, a DARPA spokesperson, told The Daily Beast.

    Test-subject Copeland, who is partially paralyzed, never actually steered a real drone using only his thoughts. Instead, he channeled his thoughts through a medical implant embedded in his skull, which used electroencephalogram—or EEG, the same method doctors use to diagnose epilepsy—to interface with a computer simulation of a drone navigating an obstacle course in the company of two robotic wingmen.

    “Nathan’s task was to exercise vertical and lateral control to fly the lead aircraft through a series of hoops positioned in the center of the screen, while also maintaining/correcting the lateral course of the two support aircraft through their own hoops positioned in shifting locations at the top of the screen,” Kilbride said via email.

    The technology is promising, and could one day lead to a direct interface between human operators and robots. That’s right—mind control for drones. But there are limits. Vaguely controlling one drone is possible today. Directly controlling several drones, and with greater fidelity and full two-way communication, is beyond the reach of current tech.

    Thought-controlled drones have been in development for years. In February 2015, DARPA announced that a volunteer named Jan Scheuermann, a quadriplegic, had flown a simulated F-35 stealth fighter using only her thoughts.

    ======================

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...heir-thoughts/

    A mind-reading headset lets people fly drones using their thoughts

    By Chelsea Whyte, Daily news 19 September 2018

    I think, therefore I fly. Headsets that read brain waves are being used to fly drones, letting us control machines with just our thoughts. A team from the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore trained 14 people to control a multirotor drone using commercially available EEG headsets, devices that use small electrodes to test the electrical activity in your brain.
    Last edited by Roger E. Moore; 2018-Nov-02 at 03:37 PM. Reason: added

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    Mass cannot be simulated, but tactile input probably can, by sending the information directly into the brain like other sensory or thought input. The VR object could be made to feel hard, soft, squishy, gooey, liquid, etc., without necessarily putting a cover over the client's hands to actually stimulate them. Doing the latter might cause the person to "wake up".

    One of my nieces is very much into the VR thing. Between that and reading about the topic, the above seems reasonable.
    Sure, but not what posts # 3, 6, and 9 were about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger E. Moore View Post
    Mass cannot be simulated, but tactile input probably can, by sending the information directly into the brain like other sensory or thought input. The VR object could be made to feel hard, soft, squishy, gooey, liquid, etc., without necessarily putting a cover over the client's hands to actually stimulate them. Doing the latter might cause the person to "wake up".
    I read about a simulated cow's uterus that was developed for training vets (you know, when they have to put their arm in to check the health of the calf, or whatever it is they do).

    It used a surface covered with tiny vibrating nodes that could make your hand "think" it was experiencing different types of surface - hard or soft, rough or smooth, etc.

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    Since the Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers forum is for questions about space, astronomy, and related topics...and this thread isn't one of those topics...I've moved this discussion to the Off-Topic Babbling forum

    Carry on.
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    The feeling of mass can be simulated, by using mechanical resistance. Picture something like a robotic exoskeleton, but instead of amplifying your strength it fights against you. Lifting a feather (or a virtual object) could feel like hefting a bag of sand.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

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    Yes, conditions and objects can be simulated by technology. I didn't get the impression the OP was asking about virtual reality tech, though.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    The brain must understand the mass of an object?
    The fingers must come into contact with an object. Otherwise, as pointed out, you will see your hand pass right through the handle.

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    Haptic feedbacks are being worked on. There is also some work on the connectome: https://neurodata.io/

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    Right. So, we can simulate all sorts of illusions for your various senses.

    But they're illusions. The OP is going to walk up to the illusory rocket, grab the illusory hatch handle, lift his leg up to step in - and fall flat on his face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    The brain must understand the mass of an object?
    It's really difficult to understand what you are thinking of from such a short question. Could you explain a bit more about what you are imagining? To be honest, I can't understand why somebody could think that you could launch yourself into space on a rocket that is created like a movie that you can see but that doesn't really exist. So I guess there must be something about your question that we are not understanding. Could you explain a bit more?
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post

    But they're illusions. The OP is going to walk up to the illusory rocket, grab the illusory hatch handle, lift his leg up to step in - and fall flat on his face.
    Maybe not if it is a waldo walking up to a real lander--operated by telepresence--and I mean more than just a tablet on wheels

    We've all seen the Matrix, and folks jacking in with an attachment to the base of the neck/spine. But it may not need to be so invasive.

    Could Euphoria software be joined with the cortical homunculus? The result may be a way to give proprioception to humanoid robots....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    No. You could not "walk to the image". It is not at a distance; it is in your head. The image would remain at the same distance and size no matter how much you tried to walk toward it.

    If you tried to walk towards the rocket you would believe you are walking the distance in you head? The image of yourself within the brain would override the senses of the atoms ?


    The brain can 'intelligently' manipulate sound and vision
    The brain can communicate to the person vocally and through the synthesiser within
    the brain?
    a biological quantum computer?
    Last edited by Ear; 2019-Aug-01 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    If you tried to walk towards the rocket you would believe you are walking the distance in you head? The image of yourself within the brain would override the senses of the atoms ?
    Sorry, it's still a bit unclear what you are asking. First, atoms don't have senses, so I guess what you are meaning is "the tactile sense that you feel from encountering atoms," like touch. If you walked and there was actually a wall in front of you, you would certainly hit the wall, and there is at least today no way to make your mind not feel that, short of severing your brain from the rest of the nervous system. Have you ever used current virtual reality? It really does feel like you're moving toward the image in the glasses. I think you can imagine the same thing. You could very accurately model reality, but you are still going to fall and die if you walk off a cliff while imagining in your mind that you are walking on a beach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    The brain can 'intelligently' manipulate sound and vision
    The brain can communicate to the person vocally and through the synthesiser within
    the brain?
    Of course it can "manipulate" sound and vision in the sense that the way we see things differs depending on how our brain processes it. But what do you mean by "communicate to the person"? If you mean, communicate to the person who has that brain, then I think the brain is the person, so of course it does internal processing. And I'm not sure what you mean by a synthesizer. We are able to imagine sights and sounds that are not there, so in a sense we have a synthesizer, if that's what you mean.
    As above, so below

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    If the image of a bicycle was input into the brain you could sit on the bicycle or believe you are sat on the bicycle and riding a bicycle, the image of the self within the brain can believe it is sat on and riding a bicycle that is only a perception within the brain. What would the people viewing see.
    Would the person look in a tranced state believing they are riding a bicycle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    If the image of a bicycle was input into the brain you could sit on the bicycle or believe you are sat on the bicycle and riding a bicycle, the image of the self within the brain can believe it is sat on and riding a bicycle that is only a perception within the brain.
    There's no particular reason that you'd be able to do anything with the image of a bicycle generated in your brain. You might see it at a fixed distance in front of you, which remained fixed when you tried to approach it. It might be fixed in your visual field, or fixed against the apparent background. All sorts of possibilities, of which the one in which you have a full-sensory experience of the bicycle is only the most complex and least plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    What would the people viewing see.
    Would the person look in a tranced state believing they are riding a bicycle?
    What you've done in your thought experiment is induce a hallucination. What do people having hallucinations look like? It varies, depending on the cause of the hallucinations--some people simply sit still, with their eyes closed, or gaze off into the distance, or apparently track objects with their eyes that the rest of us can't see. Some speak aloud in imaginary dialogue, some mutter incoherently, some are silent despite the fact they're having conversations in their heads. Some act out all or part of their hallucinatory activities, some don't. The ones that act out are often confused if (for instance) they walk into a wall they think isn't there, but others simply incorporate the additional information into their hallucination--so if they can't mount the hallucinatory bicycle, they may assume that it has broken, fallen over or suddenly been stolen.

    The fundamental thing to understand is that your senses simply do not deliver some sort of three-dimensional model of a bicycle to your brain. There's good evidence that what we perceive actually depends to a large extent on our expectations--the brain creates a mental model, and uses quite sparsely sampled sensory data to correct the model as it goes along.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    If the image of a bicycle was input into the brain you could sit on the bicycle or believe you are sat on the bicycle and riding a bicycle,
    You'd look down and see a bicycle between your (simulated) legs.
    But you would not feel a bicycle between your legs.

    If you tried to sit down, you'd sit on nothing, and fall on your butt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    the image of the self within the brain can believe it is sat on and riding a bicycle that is only a perception within the brain.
    No. Your haptic input would conflict with your visual input. The illusion would fall apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ear View Post
    What would the people viewing see.
    Would the person look in a tranced state believing they are riding a bicycle?
    They would see someone trying to sit down on an invisible bicycle and failing to do so. If they tried hard enough, they would fall down in a heap.

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