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novaderrik
2010-Feb-06, 12:00 AM
i just thought of something..
at the end of the third prequel, as Padme was gave birth to the twins as she died of a "broken heart" (no doubt broken when she was force flung 50 feet thru the air by her loving Sith lord husband and then left for dead by Obi Wan so he could go hack off his apprentice's arms and legs in that cool floating lava battle) she used her last words to name her twin children- Luke and Leia. she never spelled it out, so how did Obi Wan and Jimmy Smits know how to properly spell the newborn girl's name? did they just choose the most screwed up spelling they could think of?
and how, exactly, did they not know that she was pregnant with twins and that they were Annakin's offspring? surely they had the medical technology to figure that stuff out. taking away the technological aspects, how did no one make the connection with Padme's expanding belly and Annakin hanging around with her all the time?
taking all of this into consideration, i'd say that it kind of makes sense that the Jedi couldn't figure out that their biggest enemy- Darth Sidious- was the guy that was in charge of the Senate and that he was playing both sides. the Jedi kind of deserved to get taken out if they were that blind. and it also makes sense why Obi Wan lied to Luke about what happened to his father- even 2 decades later, he was ashamed of how blind and stupid he was back then.

LookingSkyward
2010-Feb-06, 12:04 AM
The Jedi stupidity is why R2D2 was constantly cussing...

tdvance
2010-Feb-06, 12:08 AM
well, clearly Luke and Leia in that universe is like John and James in this universe---everybody knew it wasn't the quaint old-empire lyucke and Leighaya.

Lianachan
2010-Feb-06, 01:16 AM
The best explanation is: The prequels are rubbish, and poorly thought out.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

SeanF
2010-Feb-06, 03:22 AM
and how, exactly, did they not know that she was pregnant with twins and that they were Annakin's offspring?
Well, Obi-Wan figured out Anakin was the father fairly easily. As for it being twins, no doubt Padme knew, but she may have had her reasons for not announcing the fact. :)

Ronald Brak
2010-Feb-06, 05:19 AM
she used her last words to name her twin children- Luke and Leia. she never spelled it out, so how did Obi Wan and Jimmy Smits know how to properly spell the newborn girl's name? did they just choose the most screwed up spelling they could think of?

Despite the fact that almost all the main characters speak English, apparently none of them can read or write it and all written language in Star Wars is Gookelygob. Originally Obi-wan was able to use the force to allow us to read the writing on the Death Star tractor beam controls, but the dark side has erased that shining moment from history.

MY POSTCODE

(Sorry, I have to add MY POSTCODE to every comment I make, otherwise I can get a $5,000 fine.)

AndreasJ
2010-Feb-06, 06:44 AM
What's so screwed up about "Leia"? It doesn't look very English, but so don't most names in the Star Wars universe.

KaiYeves
2010-Feb-06, 03:46 PM
Despite the fact that almost all the main characters speak English, apparently none of them can read or write it and all written language in Star Wars is Gookelygob.
Aurebesh (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurebesh), actually.

We only hear them speak English, that doesn't mean they're actually speaking English. Think of all the movies set in ancient Rome where we hear people speak English with British accents when they'd actually be speaking Latin.

novaderrik
2010-Feb-06, 04:29 PM
Aurebesh (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurebesh), actually.

We only hear them speak English, that doesn't mean they're actually speaking English. Think of all the movies set in ancient Rome where we hear people speak English with British accents when they'd actually be speaking Latin.
but there are aliens- even main characters- that don't speak english. Chewbacca and Jabba the Hutt being some good examples. and we must not forget the Ewoks, no matter how hard we may try... how come they don't speak english? the main characters are able to interact with them as if they are speaking the same language, but they aren't.
at least Star trek had the "Universal Translator" to explain why everyone spoke the smae language.. Star Wars is just all over the place in this respect.

Lianachan
2010-Feb-06, 04:47 PM
but there are aliens- even main characters- that don't speak english. Chewbacca and Jabba the Hutt being some good examples. and we must not forget the Ewoks, no matter how hard we may try... how come they don't speak english? the main characters are able to interact with them as if they are speaking the same language, but they aren't.
at least Star trek had the "Universal Translator" to explain why everyone spoke the smae language.. Star Wars is just all over the place in this respect.

Neatly demonstrated by the single line "Boy, you said it Chewie".

Buttercup
2010-Feb-06, 05:32 PM
What I want to know is how she went from "barely showing" in pregnancy at film's beginning (and despite being a petite woman carrying twins) to passage of maybe 1 week's events to being full term and giving birth at film's end. :rolleyes:

Also, are we to assume in that place/time/culture it'd be okay for a "single" Senator to be pregnant "outside of wedlock"? Maybe.


she died of a "broken heart" (no doubt broken when she was force flung 50 feet thru the air by her loving Sith lord husband and then left for dead by Obi Wan so he could go hack off his apprentice's arms and legs in that cool floating lava battle)

Yeah. :(


she used her last words to name her twin children- Luke and Leia. she never spelled it out, so how did Obi Wan and Jimmy Smits know how to properly spell the newborn girl's name? did they just choose the most screwed up spelling they could think of?

Apparently. :rolleyes:

And yes, it was funny when Obi-Wan "guessed" Anakin was father of Padme's offspring, as they sat talking on the sofa. I wonder how he ever guessed that. :p

Buttercup
2010-Feb-06, 05:38 PM
well, clearly Luke and Leia in that universe is like John and James in this universe---everybody knew it wasn't the quaint old-empire lyucke and Leighaya.

ROFL!!! :)

Buttercup
2010-Feb-06, 05:46 PM
Novaderrik: but there are aliens- even main characters- that don't speak english. Chewbacca and Jabba the Hutt being some good examples. and we must not forget the Ewoks, no matter how hard we may try... how come they don't speak english? the main characters are able to interact with them as if they are speaking the same language, but they aren't.
at least Star trek had the "Universal Translator" to explain why everyone spoke the smae language.. Star Wars is just all over the place in this respect.



Neatly demonstrated by the single line "Boy, you said it Chewie".

Lol! :lol:

That's for sure. We could assume that Han knows, after all this time, what Chewie's various roars, grunts, howls indicate. But Han also can understand the alien (forgot his name sorry) he blasted in the Cantina scene? And Jabba too? How many alien tongues can the average character understand, and if so why does each converse in their own native language?

Yeah, silly. And yet SW is so beloved. I'm a fan.

Buttercup
2010-Feb-06, 05:53 PM
Going back to the original post:
taking all of this into consideration, i'd say that it kind of makes sense that the Jedi couldn't figure out that their biggest enemy- Darth Sidious- was the guy that was in charge of the Senate and that he was playing both sides.

Yeah, really! :confused: As astute, powerful and capable as the Jedi allegedly are in the Force, they couldn't "reach out with their feelings" and discover Palpatine at some point?? Yoda interacted with Palpatine and never got an inkling? Makes no sense.


the Jedi kind of deserved to get taken out if they were that blind.

I've thought the same thing.

My prior impression was that The Dread Sith Lord was willfully holed away somewhere manipulating things from a distance. Only his apprentice would have physical access.

weatherc
2010-Feb-06, 05:57 PM
Lol! :lol:

That's for sure. We could assume that Han knows, after all this time, what Chewie's various roars, grunts, howls indicate. But Han also can understand the alien (forgot his name sorry) he blasted in the Cantina scene? And Jabba too? How many alien tongues can the average character understand, and if so why does each converse in their own native language?

Yeah, silly. And yet SW is so beloved. I'm a fan.

I think this makes sense in the Star Wars universe. Even if you can't speak a particular language, that doesn't mean that you automatically can't understand it. In a universe with so many different intelligent species, it would make sense for them to speak their own languages, but understand some of the others. For example, with Han and Chewbacca, there is no way the average human can make all of the vocal sounds that a Wookie can; likewise, I don't think a Wookie can properly pronounce all of the sounds in [whatever language we hear as English in the films].

It would be the same if we learned what dolphins are saying. We'd never be able to speak dolphin (at least, not without special equipment), but we would be able to communicate with each other, since dolphins seem to be able to be trained to understand a limited amount of human language.

Edit: It could be that Han only knows the predominant languages around Tatooine and whomever he smuggles stuff to. We don't ever see him just talking to random creatures, after all. Also, remember that only C3PO could talk to the Ewoks, because no one else knew their particular language, which means that the understanding of other languages isn't universal.

The Backroad Astronomer
2010-Feb-06, 06:01 PM
Lol! :lol:

That's for sure. We could assume that Han knows, after all this time, what Chewie's various roars, grunts, howls indicate. But Han also can understand the alien (forgot his name sorry) he blasted in the Cantina scene? And Jabba too? How many alien tongues can the average character understand, and if so why does each converse in their own native language?

Yeah, silly. And yet SW is so beloved. I'm a fan.
That would be Gredo.

Delvo
2010-Feb-06, 07:18 PM
The language we hear as English is Basic. It was created to be as widely usable as possible. But that doesn't make it perfectly universal; some can't manage it and some of those who could don't learn it. That's not much different from known linguae francae on Earth, and the way languages are shown in the movies is not much different from the way things work in some places on Earth where multiple languages are spoken and one major one dominates. People just DO tend to learn the important one even if it isn't native to them, and people just DO tend to carry on conversations in more than one language with each one speaking whichever is easiest for him/her but both understanding each other.

Palpatine's power and activities weren't just "missed". He was using the Force to hide his Force influence from other Force-users.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Feb-06, 08:02 PM
Also, are we to assume in that place/time/culture it'd be okay for a "single" Senator to be pregnant "outside of wedlock"? Maybe.
I'm having trouble seeing why it should matter.

We're talking a senate consisting of hundreds if not thousands of different races and cultures, many of which would likely consider the need for two sexes to procreate weird and even more who probably wouldn't understand marriage except in the abstract as a social contract.

Buttercup
2010-Feb-06, 08:10 PM
I'm having trouble seeing why it should matter.

We're talking a senate consisting of hundreds if not thousands of different races and cultures, many of which would likely consider the need for two sexes to procreate weird and even more who probably wouldn't understand marriage except in the abstract as a social contract.

I didn't mean to imply it should matter. And I agree with your points.

Glom
2010-Feb-08, 12:22 PM
I refer my noble lords to Confused Matthew's prequel reviews (http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Star-Wars-Prequels.php). Funny stuff (though with mature language in places).

Regarding it make sense that the Jedi don't know about Sidious, this is discussed in the above link, but to recap for those who don't want to watch the videos, consider Episode II.

The Jedi find out about a clone army created by a Jedi without authorisation from the council. The production of this clone army is directly linked to a bounty hunter, who tried to assassinate Senator Amidala who was planning to vote against the creation of a clone arm. This bounty hunter is also known to have links to the separatists. The separatists are led by a Sith lord. This links this Sith lord directly to the creation of the clone army. At the same time, you have the Chancellor pushing for emergency powers to use this clone army, whose creation is linked to the Sith. That is surely enough grounds to suspect that maybe the Chancellor has some kind of connection to the Sith.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 12:28 PM
The Jedi stupidity is why R2D2 was constantly cussing...

According to Darths and Droids, R2D2 was a nasty-yet-intelligent min-maxer that no one liked, Mace Windu was played by a little girl, Qui'Gon was played by a gung-ho combat player (so was Padme) who turned his brain off in the game...

Oh, and everything silly in Star Wars was explained as being a casual roleplaying game with some interesting elements.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 12:51 PM
I refer my noble lords to Confused Matthew's prequel reviews (http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Star-Wars-Prequels.php). Funny stuff (though with mature language in places).

Okay, this part just threw me:

"They get an ARMY to maintain PEACE AND ORDER. How does that make sense? Armies are about subjugation" etc. etc. etc.

Uhm, this guy seems to lack a lot of historical knowledge. While armies have indeed been used for subjugation and dominance, they do keep the peace by putting rival groups down, like rioters, gangs, or factions breaking off.

Now, granted, in the enforcement system we have currently, we kind of "discovered" that using the Army to handle Police or Paramilitary actions lead to problems (such as dead college kids), which is the primary reason there are paramilitary units that act as a mixture of military and police force. Still, when you don't have the resources and backing to develop a paramilitary force, a police, *and* a functioning military, then sometimes you have to use the tools at your disposal... in this case, an army.

I guess that it's not quite the same as nonviolent "peace", but there's multiple meanings of the word; and as we've seen, the Jedi are willing to kill when necessary, but almost always in defense. Developing an army to keep the Republic from fracturing would be a good defense reason.



Everything else he says about that army later on is 100% true, though (from what I remember). It was pretty stupidly handled. Methinks George Lucas isn't a big expert on politics. :)

Noordung
2010-Feb-08, 04:09 PM
People just DO tend to learn the important one even if it isn't native to them, and people just DO tend to carry on conversations in more than one language with each one speaking whichever is easiest for him/her but both understanding each other.

Well, based on my personal experience when living in Japan, extended conversations in two languages seem pretty unusual. Fairly quickly you establish which language has the higher mutual comfort level and drop into it. Though as already pointed out, alien limitations on vocalization might change that to some degree.

In the Star Wars context though, I always thought of the various languages as a way to add color, one of many elements meant to be cool whether truly plausible or not. They don't bother me the way things like sloppy plotting do.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 04:53 PM
...
I guess that it's not quite the same as nonviolent "peace", but there's multiple meanings of the word; and as we've seen, the Jedi are willing to kill when necessary, but almost always in defense. Developing an army to keep the Republic from fracturing would be a good defense reason.



Everything else he says about that army later on is 100% true, though (from what I remember). It was pretty stupidly handled. Methinks George Lucas isn't a big expert on politics. :)

So what was so bad about letting the Republic fracture that it needed to make huge new clone army to keep them in line?

Nick

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 04:58 PM
So what was so bad about letting the Republic fracture that it needed to make huge new clone army to keep them in line?

Nick

Well, yes, that is one of the problems; they didn't really hit home or explain in detail what the ramifications of such a split would cause.

However, the obvious response to you would be the US Civil War; the South wasn't run by a megalomaniacal dictator, but it was still the cause of a huge conflict; one which pitted very large armies against each other, using the latest of hand weaponry, artillery, etc.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 05:07 PM
Well, yes, that is one of the problems; they didn't really hit home or explain in detail what the ramifications of such a split would cause.

However, the obvious response to you would be the US Civil War; the South wasn't run by a megalomaniacal dictator, but it was still the cause of a huge conflict; one which pitted very large armies against each other, using the latest of hand weaponry, artillery, etc.

Was there a social issue such as slavery that dominated the political landscape of the Republic like slavery did in the US?

[Yes, I know there was slavery in the Lucasverse, but the Jedi seemed pretty nonplussed about it.]

Nick

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 05:08 PM
Was there a social issue such as slavery that dominated the political landscape of the Republic like slavery did in the US?

Was slavery the only, or even primary reason for war? The "House Divided" speech didn't exist?

If the South wanted to separate from the North and slavery didn't exist, there would have been no conflict? Is that your claim?

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 05:18 PM
Was slavery the only, or even primary reason for war? The "House Divided" speech didn't exist?

If the South wanted to separate from the North and slavery didn't exist, there would have been no conflict? Is that your claim?

Slavery was the single biggest overriding issue at the time. If slavery was abolished at the formation of the Union, there would have been no US Civil War.

Nick

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 05:34 PM
EDIT:

Meh, forget it. This isn't worth the derail.

I have nothing to say.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Feb-08, 05:44 PM
Slavery was the single biggest overriding issue at the time.
I would rather say that slavery was the excuse and rallying cry, economic differences was one of the main causes.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-08, 05:45 PM
I would rather say that slavery was the excuse and rallying cry, economic differences was one of the main causes.

Not only that, but the differences between North and South were started at the start of the colonies, and not originally on matters of slavery.

While we like to think of history in black and white "slavery vs. not slavery" terms, it's rarely so clean cut.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 05:49 PM
Got it. So the war wasn't over division, and Lincoln had no problem with the nation dividing in two.

Otherwise, your point was meaningless.

The south only cared about secession because slavery was being threatened. The Republican Party was founded on a platform of abolitionism.

US history up to that point was overshadowed by the slavery issue: the Texas War of Independence and subsequent admittance of Texas to the Union, the Missouri Compromise, the Wilmot Proviso, the Great Compromise of 1850, the Dred Scott decision, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, Bleeding Kansas, the Fugitive Slave Act, Uncle Tom's Cabin, John Brown's raid...

Nick

HenrikOlsen
2010-Feb-08, 05:51 PM
I'll give you Texas, they seceded from Mexico to keep from getting their slave dependent economy ruined when Mexico abolished slavery.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 06:04 PM
I'll give you Texas, they seceded from Mexico to keep from getting their slave dependent economy ruined when Mexico abolished slavery.

All of the other issues I mentioned were even more directly tied to the issue of slavery than Texas. Also, the economic differences you mentioned in an earlier post were magnified by (perhaps even largely caused by) the slave economy of the south.

Nick

Glom
2010-Feb-08, 06:36 PM
Funnily enough, Confused Matthew does raise the comparison of the Clone War to the US Civil War in his review of the The Clone Wars.

His argument is one I don't really see though. He's arguing that the Republic is more like the United Nations than the United States constitutionally, which I'm not sure is true.

The real problem with the Separatist movement as a device to start the Clone War is that there is no real reason given for why the withdrawing star systems are posing a threat to the rest of the Republic. Ok, it turns out they are led by a Sith Lord and are amassing a large droid army, but at the beginning, they seem to talk as though it is the very act of wanting to withdraw that warrants a military response from the Republic government. Such a mentality is purely imperialistic.

A disaster seems to have occured. Confused Matthew has gone!

vonmazur
2010-Feb-08, 08:55 PM
Lol! :lol:

That's for sure. We could assume that Han knows, after all this time, what Chewie's various roars, grunts, howls indicate. But Han also can understand the alien (forgot his name sorry) he blasted in the Cantina scene? And Jabba too? How many alien tongues can the average character understand, and if so why does each converse in their own native language?

Yeah, silly. And yet SW is so beloved. I'm a fan.

The Alien in question was from the Sopranos in Jersey....Guido...

Dale

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-08, 09:21 PM
What's the deal with tauntauns? What do they eat -- snow? And did one of the Rebels just land on Hoth, and think, maybe I'll just slap a saddle on one of things and see if I can ride it?

Nick

Delvo
2010-Feb-09, 04:17 AM
Tauntauns don't seem to be native to the area we saw them in. They were too vulnerable to the local weather to be native there.

Trantor
2010-Feb-09, 02:17 PM
One of the major time-line flaws that I remember in Episode III was at the very end of the movie. At the end, we see the Vader, Sidious, and Tarkin, standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer, looking out on the construction of the first Death Star. The Death Star's construction looked to be well underway. At the time when I first saw the movie, this seemed a flawed way to end the movie, because I thought there was a twenty year period between the ending of Episode III and the beginning of Episode IV. Did it take twenty more years, to finish a Death Star that looked better than 50% complete at that point?

CJSF
2010-Feb-09, 02:44 PM
If it makes you feel better, we can retcon it so that that shot was done years after the main plot ended in Ep. III?

CJSF

SeanF
2010-Feb-09, 03:39 PM
One of the major time-line flaws that I remember in Episode III was at the very end of the movie. At the end, we see the Vader, Sidious, and Tarkin, standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer, looking out on the construction of the first Death Star. The Death Star's construction looked to be well underway. At the time when I first saw the movie, this seemed a flawed way to end the movie, because I thought there was a twenty year period between the ending of Episode III and the beginning of Episode IV. Did it take twenty more years, to finish a Death Star that looked better than 50% complete at that point?
Well, no doubt the nascent Empire had a great deal other priorities to deal with, too, rather than putting all their time into the Death Star's construction. :)

That being said, I'm afraid I must take exception to "better than 50% complete." (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=197842)

Buttercup
2010-Feb-09, 04:05 PM
I still say Anakin was much better looking than his son. ;)

Thank you George Lucas for casting Hayden Christensen in the role!! :D

Lianachan
2010-Feb-09, 04:05 PM
Well, based on my personal experience when living in Japan, extended conversations in two languages seem pretty unusual. Fairly quickly you establish which language has the higher mutual comfort level and drop into it. Though as already pointed out, alien limitations on vocalization might change that to some degree.

In the Star Wars context though, I always thought of the various languages as a way to add color, one of many elements meant to be cool whether truly plausible or not. They don't bother me the way things like sloppy plotting do.

That's what I thought. In the Star Wars universe, it seems normal to conduct a conversation with each person speaking a different language (but understanding what each other say). I don't think that reflects real conversations at all. If I start speaking to you in Gaelic, and you start replying in French, then I think it's more likely we'd both start speaking whichever of those we had the best mutual grasp of (or even a third language, if that was going to be better).

As for adding colour - to me, it just smarts of laziness. They want the idea of a multi-lingual galaxy, and fair enough, but they can't be bothered actually fleshing it out with consistent languages or realistic use of language. In a documentary about Episode II, I saw Hayden Christensen in an interview, saying he'd asked Lucas what he was to say (for the alien language) when he spoke to Watto on Tatooine. He was told just to make it up. That might seem like colour, but I can't stand that sort of inconsistency. The Star Wars universe would, in my mind, be considerably more tangible if it had a properly thought out system of language.

Buttercup
2010-Feb-09, 04:11 PM
In a documentary about Episode II, I saw Hayden Christensen in an interview, saying he'd asked Lucas what he was to say (for the alien language) when he spoke to Watto on Tatooine. He was told just to make it up.

...and what Hayden really said for those lines was "Cindy is the most fabulously gorgeous woman in the entire galaxy and I'd marry her if she weren't already married, so now I'm feeling tragically suicidal..." :D (Fortunately for us he overcame -- with immense difficulty of course -- his tremendous disappointment that I am married). Yes, Hayden declared his undying love for me on film (even if you can't understand it in English). ::blush::

Trantor
2010-Feb-09, 04:43 PM
That being said, I'm afraid I must take exception to "better than 50% complete." (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=197842)

Ok then, I give you that one.:)

But, I still think Lucas didn't think that scene out very well. Twenty years is much too long, considering that it was "new" when Episode IV began.

Noordung
2010-Feb-09, 05:02 PM
As for adding colour - to me, it just smarts of laziness. They want the idea of a multi-lingual galaxy, and fair enough, but they can't be bothered actually fleshing it out with consistent languages or realistic use of language. In a documentary about Episode II, I saw Hayden Christensen in an interview, saying he'd asked Lucas what he was to say (for the alien language) when he spoke to Watto on Tatooine. He was told just to make it up. That might seem like colour, but I can't stand that sort of inconsistency. The Star Wars universe would, in my mind, be considerably more tangible if it had a properly thought out system of language.

Actually, I agree with that. My reaction is more a matter of trying to judge Star Wars in the terms it set for itself. Much of what is iconic about it doesn't make a lot of sense. Take the light-sabre: why go so high-tech to make weapon with a range of under six feet or so? The answer, of course, is so that you can have nifty sword fights. It's a classic case of style over substance.

The fact that that is the route Lucas chose kept me from ever becoming a major fan of the series. However, when seeing the movies with friends who are I have to go in ready to accept that if I'm to enjoy it.

novaderrik
2010-Feb-09, 08:54 PM
since the Death Star has come up- why did they build the two of them so differently? the second one- the one that probably rained death and extinction on the Ewoks after it was blown up- looked like it was built around the weapon and the cool trench around the middle, unlike the first one that was built as a ball shaped framework. did they do the second one differently in order to get the main weapon online faster? and if so, why did they leave a path to the power generator big enough for a big ship like the Millenium Falcon to fly thru at high speed? you'd think they would have maybe made blocking that hole a priority.. at least the first one only had that small vent tube..

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-09, 09:00 PM
Or why didn't they just put the power generator for the shields on the ship in the first place? Oh, heck, it must have already had a ginormous power generator on board anyway if its main gun was active.

Nick

IsaacKuo
2010-Feb-09, 09:03 PM
and if so, why did they leave a path to the power generator big enough for a big ship like the Millenium Falcon to fly thru at high speed? you'd think they would have maybe made blocking that hole a priority.. at least the first one only had that small vent tube..
"It's a trap!"

The purpose of the second Death Star was to be a trap for the rebels, and specifically Luke Skywalker. Therefore, there needed to be an obvious vulnerability.

But they didn't count on those Ewoks being stupid enough to assist in raining global death and destruction on their pathetic little moon.

Glom
2010-Feb-10, 07:35 AM
What death and extinction? Cookie crumbs have no calories. So grind away.

Delvo
2010-Feb-10, 07:08 PM
I still say Anakin was much better looking than his son. ;)

Thank you George Lucas for casting Hayden Christensen in the role!! :D
...and what Hayden really said for those lines was "Cindy is the most fabulously gorgeous woman in the entire galaxy and I'd marry her if she weren't already married, so now I'm feeling tragically suicidal..." :D (Fortunately for us he overcame -- with immense difficulty of course -- his tremendous disappointment that I am married). Yes, Hayden declared his undying love for me on film (even if you can't understand it in English). ::blush::And people act like there's some kind of mystery about why I don't date... :rolleyes::eh:

Delvo
2010-Feb-10, 07:15 PM
In a documentary about Episode II, I saw Hayden Christensen in an interview, saying he'd asked Lucas what he was to say (for the alien language) when he spoke to Watto on Tatooine. He was told just to make it up... The Star Wars universe would, in my mind, be considerably more tangible if it had a properly thought out system of language.This makes me wonder how many other fictional languages used for only a few lines just have those few lines' sounds made up, how many are developed more like real languages that most audience members will never learn, and how many started out as the former but got fleshed out into the latter later. I don't expect that I'd detect a difference, as long as the sounds for the "just made up" lines were consistent enough to believably come from the same language (so it doesn't sound like French phonics one minute and Zulu phonics the next minute).

One thing that did bug me was the series of similarities between words in the foreign languages in these movies and English words that convey similar general ideas. For example, in a sentence for which the subtitles said that if someone did something wrong then he'd be "bantha fodder", the character's voice can be heard saying "banta poodoo", and a character in a moment of frustration later pounds his fists on something and shouts "poodoo!". And in Jabba's palace, the guy with tentacles on his head said a whole sentence that sounded very similar, with only minor changes, to "I will take you to Jabba now" (ending something like "...tekuto Jabba na") right after Luke said "You will take me to Jabba now".

SeanF
2010-Feb-10, 07:48 PM
This makes me wonder how many other fictional languages used for only a few lines just have those few lines' sounds made up, how many are developed more like real languages that most audience members will never learn, and how many started out as the former but got fleshed out into the latter later.
One example that "started out as the former but got fleshed out into the latter later" is Klingon. The first spoken Klingon was in the opening scenes of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture," and that dialog was actually created by James Doohan!

When they hired linguist Marc Okrand to create a full-fledged language for "The Search for Spock," he used Doohan's creation as a starting point.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Feb-10, 08:54 PM
...and what Hayden really said for those lines was "Cindy is the most fabulously gorgeous woman in the entire galaxy and I'd marry her if she weren't already married, so now I'm feeling tragically suicidal..."
So you're basically proposing the alternative idea that it was his unrequited love for Darth Buttercup that drove him to the dark side?

Buttercup
2010-Feb-10, 10:18 PM
So you're basically proposing the alternative idea that it was his unrequited love for Darth Buttercup that drove him to the dark side?

Yep. :(

Romeo & Juliet have nothing on this. :hand:

I am to blame. :cry:

Buttercup
2010-Feb-10, 11:45 PM
Delvo:
And people act like there's some kind of mystery about why I don't date... :rolleyes:

Oh good grief. :rolleyes: A younger-than-I Hollywood actor who lives in Canada and the fictional character he portrays are hardly threats to my husband. :lol: He just laughs it off, as well he should. We're married 17 years next month; that's an achievement I take seriously. And no man on this board could step forward in honesty and make "claims" about me (unsavory private interactions). You'll do just fine with dating and marriage; no one's struck blind immediately after "I do" and some of us still enjoy a gorgeous Hollywood actor.

Lianachan
2010-Feb-11, 12:14 AM
This makes me wonder how many other fictional languages used for only a few lines just have those few lines' sounds made up, how many are developed more like real languages that most audience members will never learn, and how many started out as the former but got fleshed out into the latter later. I don't expect that I'd detect a difference, as long as the sounds for the "just made up" lines were consistent enough to believably come from the same language (so it doesn't sound like French phonics one minute and Zulu phonics the next minute).

I'm 99% sure I replied to this earlier, but I can't see my post!

Anyway, what I had said was that Tolkien sprang to mind. Middle-earth contains many languages, some of which are more or less entirely functional (although limited in vocabulary for real world use, though some learn Quenya). Others have only a few words, or phrases, but these are also extremely well designed and entirely consistent. Middle-earth was born out of an interest in language, though, so comparisons with the languages in the likes of Star Wars aren't really fair to the latter.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Feb-11, 01:55 PM
Yep. :(

Romeo & Juliet have nothing on this. :hand:

I am to blame. :cry:

Romeo:
If I profane with my unworthiest hand
This holy shrine, the gentle fine is this:
My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand
To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss.

Anakin:
From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you- I can't breath. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating... hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do?- I will do anything you ask. ... if you are suffering as much as I am, PLEASE, tell me.

Romeo sounds a lot smoother.

Romeo:
How oft when men are at the point of death
Have they been merry! which their keepers call
A lightning before death: O, how may I
Call this a lightning? O my love! my wife!
Death, that hath suck'd the honey of thy breath,
Hath had no power yet upon thy beauty:
Thou art not conquer'd; beauty's ensign yet
Is crimson in thy lips and in thy cheeks,
And death's pale flag is not advanced there.

Anakin:
AAUUUUURRRGGHHH!!!!

Glom
2010-Feb-11, 02:15 PM
Urgh. Episode II dialogue is so uncomfortable that it should be in the rules that no poster must quote it. :sick:

Buttercup
2010-Feb-11, 02:22 PM
Romeo:
If I profane with my unworthiest hand
This holy shrine, the gentle fine is this:
My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand
To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss.

Anakin:
From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you- I can't breath. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating... hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do?- I will do anything you ask. ... if you are suffering as much as I am, PLEASE, tell me.

Romeo sounds a lot smoother.

Romeo:
How oft when men are at the point of death
Have they been merry! which their keepers call
A lightning before death: O, how may I
Call this a lightning? O my love! my wife!
Death, that hath suck'd the honey of thy breath,
Hath had no power yet upon thy beauty:
Thou art not conquer'd; beauty's ensign yet
Is crimson in thy lips and in thy cheeks,
And death's pale flag is not advanced there.

Anakin:
AAUUUUURRRGGHHH!!!!

:lol: :D

So you're implying Anakin wouldn't be nearly as eloquent? ;)

vonmazur
2010-Feb-13, 09:56 PM
Folks: All the nagging questions about Star Wars are answered in two places, Robot Chicken, and Family Guy, Blue Harvest pt1 and 2....

I wonder why the gravity field on the Death Star is horizontal, but the Emperor Plopatine falls into the reactor in the center...among other annoying little things.....

According to a freind who is married to a Kenyan, Admiral (Allah) Akbar is speaking some tribal dialect, IIRC, possibly Nigerian or Western African of some kind...I have yet to verify this information...

Dale in Ala

Moose
2010-Feb-13, 10:00 PM
*blink* Does the Good Admiral speak anything other than English in the film?

slang
2010-Feb-14, 12:56 AM
We only hear them speak English, that doesn't mean they're actually speaking English. Think of all the movies set in ancient Rome where we hear people speak English with British accents when they'd actually be speaking Latin.

Actually, I'm thinking of movies situated in medieval England, with glorious knights speaking with an American accent. *sighs*

Tobin Dax
2010-Feb-15, 04:01 AM
Urgh. Episode II dialogue is so uncomfortable that it should be in the rules that no poster must quote it. :sick:
I must say that I was very disappointed that the "sand is rough" line was cut from the cable TV broadcasts. If I'm going to suffer through Lucas' dialog, I want to hear the worst line of the movie, darn it. :lol:

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-15, 07:35 AM
Folks: All the nagging questions about Star Wars are answered in two places, Robot Chicken, and Family Guy, Blue Harvest pt1 and 2....

You forgot (or were not aware of) Irregular Webcomic (http://irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=82&theme=7&dir=next5).

He goes into how unfeasible Coruscant (http://irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=380&theme=7&dir=next5) is (http://irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=417&theme=7&dir=next5).

NEOWatcher
2010-Feb-15, 03:49 PM
Actually, I'm thinking of movies situated in medieval England, with glorious knights speaking with an American accent. *sighs*
One thing Mel Brooks likes to point out.
I can't remember the wording but:
Robin Hood MIT - Im the only one who can speak with a proper English accent
History of the World - We have nothing, just this stupid French Accent... We all sound like Maurice Chevalier.
To be or not to be - In the interest of sanity we will use English for the rest of the film.

novaderrik
2010-Feb-16, 02:09 AM
One thing Mel Brooks likes to point out.
I can't remember the wording but:
Robin Hood MIT - Im the only one who can speak with a proper English accent
History of the World - We have nothing, just this stupid French Accent... We all sound like Maurice Chevalier.
To be or not to be - In the interest of sanity we will use English for the rest of the film.

i believe the Robin Hood: Men In Tights line was a direct shot at Kevin Costner for his portrayal of Robin Hood in a different movie.

Lianachan
2010-Feb-16, 08:19 AM
Actually, I'm thinking of movies situated in medieval England, with glorious knights speaking with an American accent. *sighs*

Just wait until The Eagle of the Ninth, where the Romans have mostly American accents (and some English) and the natives are mysteriously speaking Gaelic!

jokergirl
2010-Feb-16, 09:44 AM
There's something that's been nagging me for a while...

In Episode IV, when they blow up Alderaan in front of Leia... kill most innocent civilians she likely ever knew or cared about... yet we never see her affecting this in the entire series. Luke gets to agonize over his adoptive parents and Ben Kenobi, but Leia seems more fazed by the Empire tricking her into giving away something than by them killing millions.

I know I know, a million is a statistic, but surely Leia must have gotten to know many of them while she grew up on the planet? It's her home for all she knows!

;)

AndreasJ
2010-Feb-16, 12:28 PM
It's ages since I saw the film, but isn't it implied her (adoptive) family is down there?

jokergirl
2010-Feb-16, 12:39 PM
At least some of them ought to be... (You could argue her adoptive mother and father might be away on rebel or political business, but surely not the entire court would be.)

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-16, 02:59 PM
There's something that's been nagging me for a while...

In Episode IV, when they blow up Alderaan in front of Leia... kill most innocent civilians she likely ever knew or cared about... yet we never see her affecting this in the entire series. Luke gets to agonize over his adoptive parents and Ben Kenobi, but Leia seems more fazed by the Empire tricking her into giving away something than by them killing millions.

I know I know, a million is a statistic, but surely Leia must have gotten to know many of them while she grew up on the planet? It's her home for all she knows!

;)
Actually, I disagree. While I admit she did get over it quickly and never brought the subject up again (which I admit is a bit of weirdness...), she did seem horrified at the time -- not by the Empire tricking her, but that the Empire was blowing up the planet.

Looking at the clip on youtube, she says a horrified "WHAT?!", and then rushes forward, saying "No...!" Obviously she's helpless to stop it, but I don't see much to support that she was more upset at being tricked.

SeanF
2010-Feb-16, 03:34 PM
I know I know, a million is a statistic, but surely Leia must have gotten to know many of them while she grew up on the planet? It's her home for all she knows!
For all she knows? She knew she was adopted.

At least, according to "Return of the Jedi," she did. But "Revenge of the Sith" kind of plays havoc with her statements in "ROTJ," so who knows...

jokergirl
2010-Feb-16, 03:37 PM
Bad phrasing - For lack of a better word it was her home. She may not have been born there but I'm pretty sure she grew up there.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-16, 03:40 PM
Also, I admit that I don't really think I do disagree. Reading back, I think I focused more on your "tricked by" comment than your "Not affected by this in the whole series" comment.

In which case, yes, I agree. That is odd.

In all of Bioware's games, characters are usually defined by world-changing events, including KOTOR.

SeanF
2010-Feb-16, 03:52 PM
Bad phrasing - For lack of a better word it was her home. She may not have been born there but I'm pretty sure she grew up there.
I probably should've put a smiley in my post - on rereading, I fear it came across as more critical than I intended. I was just having some fun. :)

jokergirl
2010-Feb-16, 04:16 PM
I should probably put more smileys in my posts. We're all operating under the MST3K mantra here. :)
Didn't mean to come over as too defensive...

;)

novaderrik
2010-Feb-16, 08:12 PM
i think having her home planet blown up in front of her probably affected her more than she ever let on while the cameras were shooting their documentary footage (Star Wars was like "the Office" in that respect, right???). it kicked the military part of her brain into gear and steeled her resolve to take down the Empire once and for all.

korjik
2010-Feb-16, 08:20 PM
i think having her home planet blown up in front of her probably affected her more than she ever let on while the cameras were shooting their documentary footage (Star Wars was like "the Office" in that respect, right???). it kicked the military part of her brain into gear and steeled her resolve to take down the Empire once and for all.

Also, she may have realized that with the Death Star, feeding the rebellion to the Empire would only be a temporary reprieve for Alderaan.

Moose
2010-Feb-17, 03:37 PM
(Tongue firmly in cheek.)

I'll just add fuel to the fire by pointing out that Dantooine is populated. Leia deliberately tried to throw civilians under the bus. If Leia is that sociopathic/psychopathic, would the destruction of Alderaan affect her all that much? She may well have been more upset over the destruction of her favorite Star GAP than that of the rest of the planet.

Remember, she shot a stormtrooper dead when she knew full well that they had their weapons on stun.

And deliberately led the Millennium Falcon to Yavin knowing it was being tracked.

Glom
2010-Feb-17, 04:28 PM
(Tongue firmly in cheek.)

I'll just add fuel to the fire by pointing out that Dantooine is populated. Leia deliberately tried to throw civilians under the bus. If Leia is that sociopathic/psychopathic, would the destruction of Alderaan affect her all that much? She may well have been more upset over the destruction of her favorite Star GAP than that of the rest of the planet.

Remember, she shot a stormtrooper dead when she knew full well that they had their weapons on stun.

And deliberately led the Millennium Falcon to Yavin knowing it was being tracked.

Is Dantooine populated? I thought the Imperial troops found it abandoned.

Moose
2010-Feb-17, 04:55 PM
Ruins of the abandoned rebel base, yeah. Dantooine has had a struggling agrarian population since the Old Republic. But the colony's economy never got much further than subsistence farming.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-17, 04:58 PM
I'll just add fuel to the fire by pointing out that Dantooine is populated.

I would admit that it would make more sense to claim an unpopulated area, but if the Empire was unwilling to believe that, then it's a matter of choosing a less populated area over a larger populated area. Throwing 10 people under the bus is justified if it saves a thousand more.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Feb-17, 05:26 PM
It does indicate the hard pragmatism required by a leader who's to have even a slight chance of beating the Empire.

SolusLupus
2010-Feb-17, 05:31 PM
Of course, George Lucas generally doesn't seem to intentionally depict hard pragmatism, outside of "Falling to the dark side".

novaderrik
2010-Mar-06, 02:10 AM
just had another observation to add to this thread- my theory of how the Storm Troopers went from being the hardcore fighting machines of episode 2 and 3 and the Clone Wars animated series to the incompetent dolts of the original trilogy- they started off as clones, and over time, they needed to be replaced due to attrition. they probably ran out of the original material they used to clone them after Jango Fett was killed by Obi Wan, so they just started making clones of the clones- or maybe even Jango's son, Boba..
the troops in the original trilogy were the result of a kind of inbreeding.

IsaacKuo
2010-Mar-06, 03:05 AM
The Storm Troopers weren't incompetent in Star Wars and Empire. The only time the heroes seemingly outfought them was when they were allowed to escape the Death Star.

novaderrik
2010-Mar-06, 04:42 AM
The Storm Troopers weren't incompetent in Star Wars and Empire. The only time the heroes seemingly outfought them was when they were allowed to escape the Death Star.
and also pretty much every time they encountered them..
they "allowed" a seemingly unmanned ship (the Millenium Falcon) to invade their air space (space space?),and left that same ship pretty much totally unguarded after they took a 5 second walk around it and said it was empty without opening any hatches at all?
Han, Luke, and Chewbacca were "allowed" to get access to Leia's prison cell?
R2D2 and C3PO were "allowed" to wander around the Death Star while Obi Wan was also "allowed' to wander around?
when our heroes escape from the Death Star, they evade an Imperial cruiser by doing a "maneuver" that consisted of rolling slightly to the left. or was that before they were caught.. either way, it doesn't make them look good..
the troops on the forest moon of Endor "allowed" a bunch of walking teddy bears to take out their walking killing machines and hoverbikes?

looks to me like the only time the Imperial Stormtroopers did a half way decent job was at the beginning of Empire, and even then, they wound up getting slowed up by a few kids with steel cables, when all they really had to do was vaporize the planet from orbit by raining railgun fire down from a few cruisers parked in orbit, with a few TIE fighters to take out any ships that got off the ground..
i guess maybe the Emperor might have sent the "special" troops and incompetent commanders- or even the rookies fresh out of the clone incubation chambers- to these situations in order to allow events to play out, but was that really the intention of George Lucas when he did the first trilogy? and if that was the intention, then why give all the cannon fodder troops all that cool looking (but totally ineffective at doing what armor is supposed to do) body armor?

SolusLupus
2010-Mar-06, 07:42 AM
Well, when it comes to inaccuracy, that's explained by Plot Armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor). The rest is... yeah. Lucas was not a strategist. :)