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playtime2010
2010-Feb-09, 05:19 AM
A lot of articles says that the moon is a massive spacecraft, and about tens thousands years ago, it is closer to the earth, and when the moon got farther, the gravity caused the Great Flood. It is a truth?

Jens
2010-Feb-09, 05:56 AM
No, it's not. And I don't know where you got the idea that it is.

playtime2010
2010-Feb-09, 05:58 AM
No, it's not. And I don't know where you got the idea that it is.
Dr. Wilkins published a book about that in 1950s.

Jens
2010-Feb-09, 06:18 AM
I think people like Wilkins and others before him claimed there were artificial structures on the moon (and on Mars, i.e. Lowell). Which is not true, but not implausible. But I've never heard of anyone claiming the moon is completely artificial. It's not conceivable. Also, even if the moon somehow fired engines to move away from the earth, it wouldn't cause the water level to rise, just shift. The water level would rise in some places and fall in others.

Additionally, why would anybody think that? We've been observing the moon for a long time, and it never uses engines. It just hangs up there and orbits around the earth.

EDG
2010-Feb-09, 06:36 AM
A lot of articles says that the moon is a massive spacecraft, and about tens thousands years ago, it is closer to the earth, and when the moon got farther, the gravity caused the Great Flood. It is a truth?

Millions (billions, really) of years ago, it WAS closer to the Earth. Gravitational tides have slowly pushed the moon away from Earth (and slowed the Earth's rotation correspondingly). Its orbit is still expanding at a rate of a few cm per year.

That said, the moon had nothing to do with any "great flood". IIRC that's generally been ascribed to the flooding of either the Mediterranean or another of the smaller seas in the area as sea levels rose/tectonics shifted plates around sufficiently.

But the moon is emphatically NOT an artificial object.

slang
2010-Feb-09, 07:29 AM
You might enjoy the SF novel Mutineer's Moon (http://www.webscription.net/pc-291-1-mutineers-moon.aspx), by David Weber. It's available as a free download from Baen Books (http://baen.com/library/).

Sticks
2010-Feb-09, 08:09 AM
You may want to look up this edition of Astronomy Cast (http://www.astronomycast.com/astronomy/episode-17-where-does-the-moon-come-from/) which covers the origin of the Moon.

Also please take time to read through the rules as your original post touched on a number of areas such as no religion, conspiracy theories and Against the Mainstream postings

tnjrp
2010-Feb-09, 08:59 AM
Well, a lot of people (doctors, even) have written a lot of books about a lot of things that are not exactly, how shall we say, objectively "true"...

But by all means, let's look at some of the evidence for (a) Moon being artificial in some sense of the word and (b) there having been a "Great Flood" (presumably something of the Biblical proportions, tho obviously the Bible is a bit of no-go subject here as I've understood).

Here's an unfortunately rather dated recap (reputedly) gleaned from Fortean Times to help people get acquainted with some of these ideas:
http://www.lunarobservers.com/ft112.htm

antoniseb
2010-Feb-09, 09:08 AM
... by all means, let's look at some of the evidence for (a) Moon being artificial in some sense of the word and (b) there having been a "Great Flood" (presumably something of the Biblical proportions, ...

Actually, not "by all means". This is a goofy topic that may have a goofy following. The sources cited are pretty questionable. I'd prefer to simply answer Playtime2010's OP Question and leave it at that.

tnjrp
2010-Feb-09, 09:16 AM
Your call, obviously. I'll amend my post above to "Almost certainly not" then and bow out.

JohnD
2010-Feb-09, 09:20 AM
Same suggestion made of Phobos, also in the '50s and also based on inadequate data. Thanks to latest info, the density of Phobos, let alone it's appearance, is not that of a hollow, artificial object.

Strangely, the other question in the OP, about the recession of the Moon's orbit, is complicated not by inadequate data, but by selected data. Google for "Moon recession" and all the sites hit are Creationist! Apparently it would take too long for the Moon to move to its present orbit, so that is evidence for a Young Earth.

The Biblical Flood is suggested to have occurred about 8000 years ago, when the Mediterranean Sea broke through the Bosphorus into an area of low lying land that is now the Black Sea. A cataclysmic event that has left its mark in the folk memory of several Middle Esatern civilisations, and rather more recent than any significant changes in the orbit of the Moon.

John

Jens
2010-Feb-09, 09:27 AM
And I think the key issue is this: there is no reason to even think that the moon is artificial. There is *nothing* observationally that would lead us to think anything other than the obvious, which is that the moon is a big rocky body like the earth, which it quite obviously resembles.

astromark
2010-Feb-09, 09:40 AM
Welcome Playtime2010... Just because a book is written and published does NOT give weight to its contents... This absolutely foolish idea is utter nonsense. Com pleat fiction with scant regard for real science.
The object named as the Earths Moon is a natural satellite of Earth. Its almost as old and is most certainly not a massive spacecraft.

Playtime2010, if you are not careful you will believe almost anything you are told. Desist from that foolish stance. Follow the science and learn some truths... your last words of your OP were... " It is a truth. " ... No, it is not. Contact a university or a observatory... you will not be unwelcome.

antoniseb
2010-Feb-09, 12:52 PM
tnjrp has persuaded me that we should let this discussion happen. However, it won't take much to move it into ATM, where I suspect no one will be able to defend it.

Extravoice
2010-Feb-09, 01:05 PM
I remember a Weekly World News front page headline that claimed that the Moon is the skull of a dead space alien. :)

That was interesting fiction, but in reality, the evidence points to the Moon being a natural, rocky satellite of Earth. The current theory that it was created when an "impactor" about the size of Mars hit the young Earth is pretty interesting without any added fiction.

EDG
2010-Feb-09, 05:49 PM
And I think the key issue is this: there is no reason to even think that the moon is artificial. There is *nothing* observationally that would lead us to think anything other than the obvious, which is that the moon is a big rocky body like the earth, which it quite obviously resembles.

Apart from the fact it's made of green cheese. Who put that up there, eh? eh? It's a cover-up I tell you!

;)

Centaur
2010-Feb-10, 04:32 AM
A lot of articles says that the moon is a massive spacecraft, and about tens thousands years ago, it is closer to the earth, and when the moon got farther, the gravity caused the Great Flood. It is a truth?

Welcome to the discussion group, playtime2010.

In 1954 the British Astronomical Society ridiculed professional mechanical engineer and amateur astronomer H. P. Wilkins for his ludicrous suggestion that there is an artificial bridge on the Moon, thus precipitating his resignation. Nevertheless, there will always be credulous members of the public eager to hear such silly notions. This reminds me of the half-century old adventure of cartoon characters Rocky & Bullwinkle, which dealt with creatures from the artificial planet Munimula, which of course is aluminum spelled backward.

Another miscreant was 19th century American congressman Ignatius Donnelly, who was unaware of plate tectonics, and cherry picked flimsy evidence to supposedly prove the existence of the continent Atlantis in the present day Atlantic Ocean. He surmised that the sinking of an imagined Atlantis and the flood of Noah could have been due to gravitational disturbances while the Moon was being captured by Earth a few thousand years ago. Such a recent capture has been proven impossible, both by theoretical physics and physical evidence returned by astronauts. Although, indeed, a number of catastrophic floods have occurred in the human past, often due to melt waters from receding glaciers at the ends of ice ages.

playtime2010
2010-Feb-10, 04:01 PM
But now I cannot explain that why the Great Flood came from the same direction? And according to the stories of the Great Flood, when the flood came quickly, and went away quickly like it came? Was there any celestials' gravity effected the earth?

Swift
2010-Feb-10, 04:06 PM
Also please take time to read through the rules as your original post touched on a number of areas such as no religion, conspiracy theories and Against the Mainstream postings
playtime2010,

You have been warned once not to advocate Against the Mainstream or religiious ideas in this thread. The idea of "The Great Flood" is such an idea. Your question about the moon has been answered. If you need any further scientific clarification of that, than ask those questions. Please take care in what you post here, or this discussion will either be closed or moved to a different part of the forum.

EDG
2010-Feb-10, 05:45 PM
But now I cannot explain that why the Great Flood came from the same direction? And according to the stories of the Great Flood, when the flood came quickly, and went away quickly like it came? Was there any celestials' gravity effected the earth?

The bible is not an acceptable reference for historical events since it is a highly unreliable source. Do you have a legitimate historical reference for whichever "great flood" you are referring to?

While it seems that there have been major floods in the historical middle east, keep in mind that stories written around them are more often than not just that - stories.

Centaur
2010-Feb-10, 06:23 PM
But now I cannot explain that why the Great Flood came from the same direction? And according to the stories of the Great Flood, when the flood came quickly, and went away quickly like it came? Was there any celestials' gravity effected the earth?

The floods to which I was referring often occurred after a large lake created by melting ice age glaciers burst through a natural dam at one edge and quickly flooded an area for a very short time before the waters dissipated. There was no direct cause due to gravitation from celestial bodies, although slow changes in the Earth’s orbit and axial tilt can contribute to the coming and going of ice ages. As others have noted, legends of floods in ancient retellings of stories like those found in the bible are usually apocryphal. Seek geological sources for rational reports of investigations into the nature of floods.

astromark
2010-Feb-10, 06:54 PM
The science is real. As the ice sheets receded huge volumes of water raced across the lands. Local primitives had no concept of events thousands of miles away... they got wet ! Legend and myth are built on ignorance. It does not need to continue...

KaiYeves
2010-Feb-10, 07:07 PM
It's a Celestial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(comics))?

Maybe we should ask the Watcher about that...

Jeff Root
2010-Feb-11, 03:19 AM
Floods occur practically everywhere. Disasterous, unusually destructive
floods occur practically everywhere. From storms; melting snow and ice;
rivers dammed by debris or landslides; lakes breached by rising water
levels, landslides, earthquakes, or volcanoes; from tsunamis caused by
earthquakes, underwater landslides, volcanoes, or even large meteoroids
falling into an ocean. If you have ever seen a really big flood, you have
probably noted that it seems to go on forever. It looks as if the entire
world is flooded. In many places, such floods are not rare. They might
not happen for many years, even generations, but an area that can be
flooded will likey have been flooded many times before and will likely be
flooded many times again.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

tnjrp
2010-Feb-11, 09:22 AM
@playtime2010

If you wish to discuss "Great Flood as in Noah's Flood" type of stuff, you might take it to the lion's den: Richard Dawkins.net. The rules there allow dealing with religious topics, while they do prohibit downright preaching.

Here's an ongoing discussion about that specific Flood here, par example:
http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=107461

Jens
2010-Feb-12, 02:05 AM
It's a Celestial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(comics))?


You might have noticed that the OP is posting from China. I'm guessing that "celestial" in this case is a translation of "天体", which means "astronomical object" but can also mean "celestial being." Literally it means "body in the heavens," and "body" can be taken either to mean a physical object or a creature. So a dictionary might give you that as a translation.

Jens
2010-Feb-12, 02:07 AM
But now I cannot explain that why the Great Flood came from the same direction?

I understand that you are not a native English speaker, so it might be difficult for you. But as a simple question, what "great flood" are you talking about? Where did you read about it?

Centaur
2010-Feb-12, 02:54 AM
I understand that you are not a native English speaker, so it might be difficult for you. But as a simple question, what "great flood" are you talking about? Where did you read about it?

Good point, Jens! We westerners should not assume that the flood of Noah was the reference. Virtually all cultures have their own “great flood” myths, including the Chinese. Our mention of the flood story in the book of Genesis may have mystified playtime2010, especially considering language difficulties. Let’s hope he/she returns to clarify his/her meaning, as you suggest. Nevertheless, much of what has been discussed could apply to any flood legends.

tnjrp
2010-Feb-12, 06:42 AM
While China is a massive land with many peoples and ancient cultures, the typical flood myths from the area are, I understand, rooted in the actual events of the flooding of the Yellow River.

And the likes of Wilkins, if it was he who did mention the flood (I haven't read the book most likely referenced above), would be most likely refering primarily to the Biblical Flood as that's what most of such Western "alternative thinkers" tend to be most familiar with and interested in "explaining".

KaiYeves
2010-Feb-12, 11:31 PM
I was joking, Jens.

skyline5k
2010-Feb-13, 03:17 AM
Didn't know China had a "great flood" story as well. We learn something new everyday!

An astronomy professor about 10 years ago told us that the moon simply came from Earth, millions of years ago, and will probably crash back into the Earth in another million years or so.

Is this not the case anymore?

And for the record, I'm in China, but I'm American, so yes, native English speaker.

Centaur
2010-Feb-13, 03:38 AM
An astronomy professor about 10 years ago told us that the moon simply came from Earth, millions of years ago, and will probably crash back into the Earth in another million years or so.

Is this not the case anymore?



Your astronomy professor was well behind the times. Another theory became the consensus choice among astronomers about 25 years ago. After consideration of physical dynamics and material returned from the Moon by astronauts, it was deemed that the most popular theories of Moon formation were impossibilities. Instead, it was determined that early in the solar system’s history a planet at least the size of Mars likely crashed into the Earth, with the splash material coalescing into the Moon after about a year. Since then due to tidal related dynamics, the mean distance between Earth and Moon has been increasing and will continue to do so. No need to duck!

skyline5k
2010-Feb-13, 03:52 AM
Instead, it was determined that early in the solar system’s history a planet at least the size of Mars likely crashed into the Earth, with the splash material coalescing into the Moon after about a year.That was pretty much what he said. Sorry for being vague.

Though he did say it was on its way back. This was about 12 years ago actually. My freshmen year.

Centaur
2010-Feb-13, 03:57 AM
That was pretty much what he said. Sorry for being vague.

Though he did say it was on its way back. This was about 12 years ago actually. My freshmen year.

The Moon is currently receding at an average of 38 millimeters per year. Theoretically that could reverse in billions of years, but long before then an expanded Sun is expected to swallow the Earth and Moon.

skyline5k
2010-Feb-13, 11:38 AM
Cheers! Seems I need a bit of updating since my college days.

pipedream
2010-Feb-13, 12:22 PM
Good point, Jens! We westerners should not assume that the flood of Noah was the reference. Virtually all cultures have their own “great flood” myths, including the Chinese. Our mention of the flood story in the book of Genesis may have mystified playtime2010, especially considering language difficulties. Let’s hope he/she returns to clarify his/her meaning, as you suggest. Nevertheless, much of what has been discussed could apply to any flood legends.

I'm not sure that the Chinese do have a 'great flood' myth (excepting, of course, local flooding caused by the Yellow River and the like).

Taken from the book 'Aeons: The Search for the Begining of Time' by Martin Gorst (yes, it's popular science, I apologise, but it's a cracking good read) -

'...When the first Jesuit missionaries had arrived in China, the Chinese had greeted their account of world history - drawn from the Hebrew Bible - with disbelief. The cause of this dissent was the story and date of the Biblical Flood, the fearsome deluge in which, according to Genesis, all the people of the world had drowned except Noah and his family. According to the missionaries, this punishment from God had occurred in or around the year 2300 BC. The Chinese, however, dismissed this as impossible. Their own history stretched back hundreds of years before this date and made no mention of a worldwide flood, let alone a man named Noah. Either the flood had not reached China or had occurred much earlier than the Jesuits said.'


(For anyone interested, the Biblical date of the begining of time is only discussed in the first few chapters before being dismissed and Gorst then tackles the science for the remainder of the book.)

Sticks
2010-Feb-13, 12:54 PM
Out of interest I got this link (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html) from ToSeek a long time ago and is a list of various flood myths from around the world.

However having given you that link, I must put on my mod hat on, the discussion here is straying away from the origin of the Moon which as Swift has said has been answered. Discussion about flood myths could be seen as off topic. If anyone wants to discuss flood myths from the angle of anthropology and possible causes, then this will require another thread.

Centaur
2010-Feb-13, 07:45 PM
The moderator asks us to avoid discussing great floods, despite the Chinese OP associating lunar gravity with the “Great Flood” in his initial post. I had intended to mention more on the matter here, but will simply add that Wikipedia also has a China section within its article on Deluge Myth.

JohnD
2010-Feb-14, 01:50 PM
playtime2010,

You have been warned once not to advocate Against the Mainstream or religiious ideas in this thread. The idea of "The Great Flood" is such an idea. Your question about the moon has been answered. If you need any further scientific clarification of that, than ask those questions. Please take care in what you post here, or this discussion will either be closed or moved to a different part of the forum.

Swift,

A great flood is a feature of the myths and folk stories of many societies. No doubt they are based on different deluges. To censure for mentioning such a common theme is over cautious.
Let the guy speak! And help him with his English.

John

Occam
2010-Feb-15, 11:28 PM
Actually the idea that the moon is artificial has been written about more than once.
This link (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/luna/esp_luna_19.htm) describes a book that I've had on my own bookshelf since the 70's.

It's complete and utter rubbish, of course, and makes "Chariots Of The Gods?" look like a scholarly work. I've kept it only due to a perverse sense of nostalgia but it's easy to see how a credulous or naive person could be taken in by nonsense like this. After all, if it wasn't true then it wouldn't be in a book, would it?

captain swoop
2010-Feb-15, 11:43 PM
Swift,

A great flood is a feature of the myths and folk stories of many societies. No doubt they are based on different deluges. To censure for mentioning such a common theme is over cautious.
Let the guy speak! And help him with his English.

John

If you have a problem with a post or a Mod decision report it don't comment in the thread.

Thank You.

JohnD
2010-Feb-16, 12:57 PM
If you have a problem with a post or a Mod decision report it don't comment in the thread.

Thank You.

So discussion of thread moderation must occur off board, hidden and out of the way of everyone else? Sorry, this is way off thread, but conversations are like that, unless this is a debating society.

In which case: Point of order, Mr.Chairman! (read 'moderator')

John

Swift
2010-Feb-16, 01:18 PM
So discussion of thread moderation must occur off board, hidden and out of the way of everyone else? Sorry, this is way off thread, but conversations are like that, unless this is a debating society.

In which case: Point of order, Mr.Chairman! (read 'moderator')

John
Depending on the specifics, they are either private conversations, or you might start a thread in Forum Introductions & Feedback (http://www.bautforum.com/forum-introductions-feedback/). They never are to happen in the topic tread, and you've been a member long enough to know this.

Now, no more derailments.

Jeff Root
2010-Feb-16, 01:23 PM
I was seriously thinking about doing the same thing John just did, last night,
but decided not to.

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom
of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in
power than by violent and sudden usurpations." -- James Madison

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

.

PetersCreek
2010-Feb-16, 05:08 PM
Make this yet another warning to discontinue the metadiscussion of moderation in this thread.

Jeff Root
2010-Feb-16, 05:24 PM
You have received an infraction at Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum.
Thank you.

I'm sure Control will triumph over Kaos in the end.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Centaur
2010-Feb-16, 06:29 PM
Normally I’d be the last one to join in expressing concern, but guilt would overcome me if I failed to support the voices of reason here. Fear by those in power of public criticism has led to hideous results throughout history, and reached its nadir with the Catholic Inquisition’s burning to death those who questioned the church’s authority regarding dogma. Persons who manage a supposedly scientific message board should be at the forefront of opposing any suppression of discussion or dissent, especially when someone living under a totalitarian government initiates a thread and is able to observe how those in a supposedly free society react.

PetersCreek
2010-Feb-16, 06:39 PM
Okay, since moderator warnings are not being heeded and the OP isn't being directly addressed, this thread is closed. Report this post to request that it be reopened but only for the purpose for on-topic discussion.

Anyone wishing to discuss "suppression" may do so in the Excessive moderation (http://www.bautforum.com/forum-introductions-feedback/100838-excessive-moderation.html#post1681989) thread...which seems to exist in spite of said suppression.