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View Full Version : LRO team is sitting on imagery, Lunas and Lunokhod pics



Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 10:55 AM
Unofficial rumors say the LROC team has obtained images of the Luna 20, Luna 23 and Luna 24, and Lunokhod 2, but they are refusing to release the images to the interested parties, or to the public.

I have informed Mr. Cowing, of course and am currently waiting for his reaction to what's going on and why we still haven't seen the imagery.

OK, NASA. If you don't wish to be transparent, don't complain about conspiracy theories.

Alan G. Archer
2010-Mar-02, 11:52 AM
I usually wait until the official rumors roll in before making comments. ;)

Thanks, Zvezdichko, for the information. I have been wondering lately about LROC imagery of Russian lunar hardware.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 11:57 AM
I usually wait until the official rumors roll in before making comments. ;)


I assure you, the source from which I got the information is very credible and I've even made some screenshots in case the information gets deleted. I don't want to share it publicly, because there are a lot of members over there I respect.

Jason Thompson
2010-Mar-02, 12:00 PM
OK, NASA. If you don't wish to be transparent, don't complain about conspiracy theories.

Why accuse NASA of being non-transparent based on rumour?

1: Do they actually have those images and are they sitting on them?

2: Might they have a legitimate reason for holding on to those images? LRO isn't just taking pretty pictures for our benefit.

3: What conspiracy theories would arise from holding on to a few Luna pictures?

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:02 PM
You've got to be kidding me. Scientists don't always immediately release images all the time. There's no conspiracy.

Zvezdichko, please tell me you are just joking.

kleindoofy
2010-Mar-02, 12:05 PM
Unofficial rumors ...
:lol:

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:08 PM
1: Do they actually have those images and are they sitting on them?

Jason, as far as I'm aware, they DO have these images. As I already said, the source is indeed credible and respected amongst the community.



2: Might they have a legitimate reason for holding on to those images? LRO isn't just taking pretty pictures for our benefit.

Cassini and MERs release data in almost real-time, same was for Phoenix and dozens of planetary misions.


3: What conspiracy theories would arise from holding on to a few Luna pictures?

Well... exactly. I'm not advocating a conspiracy theory, I'm just accusing them of not being transparent. As for possible conspiracy theories ... let me think:

1. NASA needs time so it can Photoshop the pictures.

2. Russians were faking there missions ...

3. There are alien artifacts and these must be removed from the pics before removing them.

Agan, I'm not advocating a conspiracy theory, but the lack of transparency LEADS to beliefs in conspiracy theories.


You've got to be kidding me. Scientists don't always immediately release images all the time. There's no conspiracy.

Look. The fact they don't release images all the time doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T BE releasing them. You should read more NASAWatch about that.

slang
2010-Mar-02, 12:15 PM
3: What conspiracy theories would arise from holding on to a few Luna pictures?

Isn't it obvious? They will prove that Russia never went to the moon! Cowing'll have a cow! (Maybe one that'll jump over the moon.)

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:18 PM
This happens literally all the time. Even happened with the images of the Apollo landers.

The scientists that take these images are under no obligation to live up to any standard of transparency. They can and will release them on their own time. We have gotten, quite frankly, spoiled on the fast MER and Cassini images. Perhaps the LRO images take longer to process and put online (they are fairly large, after all). You might as well complain about every embargo of scientific information.

You know, 30 years ago you would have been lucky to get images from spacecraft a week after they were taken.

Those who would point to this being a conspiracy also look for things to point out as a conspiracy. It does not matter if NASA makes these images available the second they hit the ground, the conspiracy theorists will point toward the vertical lines in the LRO images as hiding something. They'll find something, no matter how insignificant, JPEG artifacts, odd image names, image links having a certain number of characters, file size, anything, if they can point to a conspiracy.

Just don't worry about them. Let us enjoy the speed at which the scientists do get the images to us, and let those conspiracy theorists continue crying out about random nonsense. Besides, if the scientists delivered these images to us instantly, the conspiracy theorists would be saying that's evidence in itself of fakery.

Jason Thompson
2010-Mar-02, 12:26 PM
Look. The fact they don't release images all the time doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T BE releasing them. You should read more NASAWatch about that.

Why should they be releasing them? The images are scientific data, and are gathered for scientific purposes. They are not just nice pictures taken for our benefit, and we have NO right to expect them to be released immediately.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:27 PM
The scientists that take these images are under no obligation to live up to any standard of transparency. They can and will release them on their own time. We have gotten, quite frankly, spoiled on the fast MER and Cassini images. Perhaps the LRO images take longer to process and put online (they are fairly large, after all). You might as well complain about every embargo of scientific information.

These images indeed are very large, but in this specific case we don't need the huge gigabyte chink. A small .png or .jpg cropped from the original file which includes the Lunokhod will do the thing. And it will be a great public stunt, it will be a great PR both for NASA and for RSA.

But they are not doing it.

Of course they can and release the images on their own time. But does this mean it's right thing to do, after all NASA relies on taxpayer's money? NASA needs support from public so it can receive funding and when they are refusing to release the images on time it leads to lack of support. Yes, we are spoiled by MERs and Cassini. They set the standart so high that nothing less will satisfy the hungry space community.


Why should they be releasing them? The images are scientific data, and are gathered for scientific purposes. They are not just nice pictures taken for our benefit, and we have NO right to expect them to be released immediately

Perhaps I really don't have the right, I can only moan and groan on forums because I live outside USA. But some people DO have the right because THEY paid FOR these instruments. And I am in contact with such people and they totally agree.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:31 PM
But they are not doing it.
Not now. Be patient. They will.


They set the standart so high that nothing less will satisfy the hungry space community. That is the hungry space community's fault.

This whole thread, really, is sad. Reminds me of the little kid screaming out "but I want it NOW!!!"

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:35 PM
This whole thread, really, is sad. Reminds me of the little kid screaming out "but I want it NOW!!!"

False analogy. We've been waiting for these images literally for years. Some who are older than me (I'm 23) have been waiting for decades.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:37 PM
Quite honestly, the only ones who know that Cassini and MER make the images available so soon are a very small minority that actually closely follow these projects. The overwhelming majority of people don't know, and most of them don't even know about Cassini or LRO.

Those of us who do, and do follow the missions closely, should understand that it's the scientists discretion when to release the images. I'm a tax payer, and I am perfectly happy waiting for the images. As you state, you don't help pay for these projects, so you have even less reason to be impatient.


We've been waiting for these images literally for years. Some who are older than me (I'm 23) have been waiting for decades. Then what is the problem of waiting another day or two? Really?

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:40 PM
After Cassini flew by Mimas not too long ago, it was darn near a day before we got images. I kept refreshing the raw images at the Cassini website hoping to see them there. I don't hold any angst toward the Cassini team for making me wait so long for them. I did get to see them and they were wonderful. Well worth the wait. Similarly, I have no problem waiting on LRO images because I know I will indeed see them. The only reason why someone would be disgruntled about having non-instant access of spacecraft images is quite simply impatience.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:40 PM
As you state, you don't help pay for these projects, so you have even less reason to be impatient.

Actually I did pay, but on a different lunar mission. I'm still waiting for scientific results and I dare to criticize them as well. Where are the results of RADOM-7 published?

So yes, the local European space agencies have even worse PR. You probably know why we complain more about NASA - because it has the best PR but nevertheless it's not totally transparent.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:46 PM
If we had to wait years for the images, then I can understand complaining, or if NASA were doing like they did with how ESA handled the Huygens mission.

But I mean really, the images will be available soon. Just be patient.

As for RADOM-7, I don't have any idea when to expect that data. They may still be processing it. I don't know much about how to expect that to be handled, being a Bulgarian instrument on a Indian mission.

kleindoofy
2010-Mar-02, 12:48 PM
The CT'ers are going to spew their crap no matter what anybody does.

If NASA released the pictures immediately, the nutjobs would say they were pre-fabricated in Area 51 and couldn't possibly be presented so quickly with today's technology.

If NASA waits, then they come up with something else.

Woos have been around since Adam and Eve. Nothing anybody does is going to influence them or stop them.

I for one think it is totally wrong to dance to their tune or let them set the pace or standards by which things are done. That is especially true for NASA activity.

I frankly couldn't give a damn what they think.


... We've been waiting for these images literally for years. Some who are older than me (I'm 23) have been waiting for decades.
Waiting? For what?

Waiting for proof that something that happened happened?

I think the little kid screaming out "but I want it NOW!!!" analogy is very fitting.

djellison
2010-Mar-02, 12:51 PM
That is the hungry space community's fault.

The rest of the space community has patience. It seems only Zvezdichko fails to understand the scientific process, the power of publishing, the requirement of science teams to do outreach in a certain way, the pipeline involved in an image release press release.

The creation of a thread like this is nothing short of pathetic. There are projects and spacecraft that are WORTH complaining about in terms of outreach. LRO is not one.

And furthermore, there is no conspiracy here.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:51 PM
If we had to wait years for the images, then I can understand complaining, or if NASA were doing like they did with how ESA handled the Huygens mission.

But I mean really, the images will be available soon. Just be patient.

As for RADOM-7, I don't have any idea when to expect that data. They may still be processing it. I don't know much about how to expect that to be handled, being a Bulgarian instrument on a Indian mission.

It's not up for the RADOM data only. Probably international cooperation really delays the data, there are delays. But they did promise to make all that data published in PDS until the end of the last year, and we still have no data. No TMC images. No Spectral results. Nothing.

As for ESA, I remember they published the pics in real-time.

Jason Thompson
2010-Mar-02, 12:56 PM
But some people DO have the right because THEY paid FOR these instruments. And I am in contact with such people and they totally agree.

That is, I'm afraid, simply rubbish. Yes, they paid for the instruments. Yes, they have a right to reap the benefits of that payment. That does NOT translate to a right to see anything and everything as it comes in on whatever timescale they consider appropriate. They also paid for the setup for the astronauts' medical checkups. Does that mean they have a right to confidential medical data?

The American taxpayers also pay for Hubble, but the researchers who devote years and dollars to research proposals to secure time to use Hubble sure as hell aren't going to want all their data published before they get a chance to look at it.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 12:58 PM
As for ESA, I remember they published the pics in real-time. And then removed them from the internet and showed to the rest of the world a room full of applauding engineers and scientists. NASA does not have nearly as severe PR issues as ESA has (Though ESA did much better with the Rosetta flyby of Steins). They do make public images from MER, Cassini, and LRO on a perfectly reasonable timescale, IMHO.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 12:59 PM
The rest of the space community has patience. It seems only Zvezdichko fails to understand the scientific process, the power of publishing, the requirement of science teams to do outreach in a certain way, the pipeline involved in an image release press release.


No, Doug. I understand the peer-reviewing very well and I'm aware that photos from MERs and Cassini are being published without peer reviewing and without waiting the embargo period of the magazine to end.

The rest of space community... Inside UMSF or outside UMSF? Wasn't this about excluding, not including people? So yes, I'm not surprised most of you are holding your emotions for yourself, but some of your people do complain.

Please, open your eyes. Ask the people from Lunar Networks. They complain for MONTHS to get the LROC WAC data. They need it. Ask the people from NASAWatch.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 01:21 PM
As for the images of the Luna landers, no one's being excluded, Zvezdichko. The images will be out soon. The scientists have the data you speak of, and they are working with it. The LROC WAC data is for the LROC WAC scientists. They can release it at their discretion.

Jason Thompson said it well.

That does NOT translate to a right to see anything and everything as it comes in on whatever timescale they consider appropriate. They also paid for the setup for the astronauts' medical checkups. Does that mean they have a right to confidential medical data?

The rest of us are perfectly fine with being on the receiving end of the information from the scientists. I don't see why you aren't.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 01:25 PM
The rest of us are perfectly fine with being on the receiving end of the information from the scientists. I don't see why you aren't.

Well... I avoided to say this, but... Because one of your guys already saw these pics. What makes us so different that we will have to wait to see this pics? Isn't this a discrimination?

I'll ask this question again if you avoid answering it.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 01:53 PM
I haven't seen the pics. He who has (and I know who you are talking about) may have something to do with the LRO team. I don't know much about him. Maybe he attended some meeting somewhere. The LRO scientists also get to see the images before the rest of the world. It's only fair, it's their spacecraft.

Calling it discrimination completely unfounded. Is it discrimination for every embargo of temporary scientific information? And if so, how? We'll get to see the information eventually.

I can't possibly see how anyone is being discriminated against.

stutefish
2010-Mar-02, 02:02 PM
Jason, as far as I'm aware, they DO have these images. As I already said, the source is indeed credible and respected amongst the community.
Zvezdichko, it doesn't seem like your awareness extends far enough to serve as support for your claim.

Your claim, as I understand it, is that someone else has alleged NASA is improperly withholding imagery, and that this person's reputation is suitable evidence in support of their allegation.

But you won't tell us who this person is. You won't let us review their allegations for ourselves. You won't let us judge for ourselves if their reputation is good enough to be evidence for their claim.

If this person communicated with you privately, and made accusations without evidence, why should we take them seriously? All you have to go on is their reputation. You won't even give us that much.

If this person communicated with you publically, why won't you direct us to the public forum where the communication was made? That way we can see for ourselves what this person has to say, and judge for ourselves if their reputation is good enough to serve as evidence in support of their claims.

Who appointed you the gatekeeper of these accusations?

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 02:06 PM
stutefish, here:
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6192

Not to be too big a creep, but I looked him up on the interwebs. I am confident he is a reliable source.

Zvezdichko
2010-Mar-02, 03:06 PM
I really did not intend to point to this source (this is a respected person) unless a moderator decided to ask me to back up my claims according to the Conspiracy section policy. As Hungry4info finally gave us the source- you can see. The images have been taken. And they are not published yet.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 03:09 PM
Regardless of whether or not images of the Soviet landers are being withheld, I think this is more of a complaint about the embargo process, than these images specifically anyway.

Swift
2010-Mar-02, 03:12 PM
I really did not intend to point to this source (this is a respected person) unless a moderator decided to ask me to back up my claims according to the Conspiracy section policy. As Hungry4info finally gave us the source- you can see. The images have been taken. And they are not published yet.
Zvezdichko,

If you are claiming there is some sort of conspiracy to hide or delay these images it is your responsibility to supply evidence to support that.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 03:19 PM
I don't think he's necessarily claiming a conspiracy, but rather, just upset the embargo process and/or the speed at which material from spacecraft are made public.


Agan, I'm not advocating a conspiracy theory,

beethovenspiano
2010-Mar-02, 04:04 PM
Why should they be releasing them? The images are scientific data, and are gathered for scientific purposes. They are not just nice pictures taken for our benefit, and we have NO right to expect them to be released immediately.

What?????:eek::eek: You have got to be kidding there. Only for scientists you say, not the dumb ignorant public you mean?

Isnt the pursuit of scientific knowledge supposed to be for all our benefit?

Space scientists are always having to justify the vast costs involved with these missions, and one of the ways is getting the public involved. Pretty pictures are good PR as well as scientifically useful you know.

Hungry4info
2010-Mar-02, 04:17 PM
The key word there, beethovenspiano, is "immediately."
Us dumb ignorant folk will still get to see the pretty pictures. The OP just didn't want to wait for them.

JayUtah
2010-Mar-02, 04:21 PM
...

What?????:eek::eek: You have got to be kidding there. Only for scientists you say, not the dumb ignorant public you mean?

Actually he said no such thing.

Isnt the pursuit of scientific knowledge supposed to be for all our benefit?

Yes, which means giving the professional scientists room to do what they need to do. Public roads are also for our benefit. That doesn't mean you get to drive the bulldozer.

Space scientists are always having to justify the vast costs involved with these missions...

No, space scientists are always having to compete for dollars that are announced to be available. They produce proposals saying how they will best spend those public funds. The winner gets selected for funding. To make him therefore turn over all the collected data to someone else who didn't expend the money and effort to produce the proposal is unfair.

Pretty pictures are good PR as well as scientifically useful you know.

And pretty pictures are inevitably made available. The priority isn't the same in every case. What's being quibbled over here is the schedule according to which the data are to be released for public view.

djellison
2010-Mar-02, 04:21 PM
As for ESA, I remember they published the pics in real-time.

Then you remember WRONG.

Firstly, they couldn't possibly be put online in 'real time', as there was a many many hour delay between Huygens landing, and the data making it to the ground. Relay didn't even commence till more than 2 hours after landing. Include the one way light time for downlink and it's > 3hrs. That's not real time. Not even slightly.

Secondly, the Huygens camera was a US instrument ( google DISR ). The images were put online, then very rapidly removed at the request of ESA.

Thirdly, "dozens of planetary misions." you claim, release their images immediately. Wrong. MER does. Cassini does. New Horizons did. Phoenix did. That's it. MRO doesn't. MEX doesn't. MODY doesn't. Messenger doesn't. VEX doesn't. Kaguya didn't. Chang'E 1 didn't. Chandrayaan-1 didn't. Hayabusa didn't. NEAR didn't. Stardust didn't. Deep Impact did, sort of. It's maybe a handfull that do. It's certainly not >24 (i.e. dozens)

Finally, why start a thread in the Conspiracy Theory section, only to then say "I'm not advocating a conspiracy theory". It's an utter nonsense.

These images WILL be release to the public in due course. If you're not prepared to let the team that built, tested, calibrated and operate LROC to get academic kudos by retaining imagery for publication before releasing them to the public, then you are totally detached from the reality of spaceflight operations and the academic and scientific processes.

LROC has release 700 images. SEVEN HUNDRED. http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/index.php?/archives/159-LROC-NAC-Image-Prerelease.html

You do the space enthusiast community a large disservice by making posts like this.

Donnie B.
2010-Mar-02, 04:25 PM
I'll ask this question again if you avoid answering it.

Is that a threat? ;)

"Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!" -- French Knight

Jason Thompson
2010-Mar-02, 04:32 PM
What?????:eek::eek: You have got to be kidding there. Only for scientists you say, not the dumb ignorant public you mean?

Isnt the pursuit of scientific knowledge supposed to be for all our benefit?

Space scientists are always having to justify the vast costs involved with these missions, and one of the ways is getting the public involved. Pretty pictures are good PR as well as scientifically useful you know.

Would you mind actually reading what I said before jumping the gun? Otherwise you risk making yourself look foolish.

I said that the scientists have priority, not exclusive rights. That is as it should be. They designed and built the machine in order to obtain data, and they have the right to get that data first before releasing it to the public. I said the public had no right to expect immediate release of the images, not that they had no right to expect it at all.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-02, 06:29 PM
Perhaps I really don't have the right, I can only moan and groan on forums because I live outside USA. But some people DO have the right because THEY paid FOR these instruments. And I am in contact with such people and they totally agree.

Well, I don't. (My current status, or not, as a taxpayer is a discussion for another time--I am a voter, as well as someone who cares more than the taxpayers in my immediate circle of friends.) I want the scientists who put so much of their lives and careers into the mission to have first crack at it and do actual work rather than let me go, "Oooooo!"

Garrison
2010-Mar-02, 07:32 PM
Aren't the scientists going to have different priorities as well? I mean they are probably going to be more interested in images that reveal information about the moon itself rather than decades old hardware that they know all about. The pictures of the probes might be available to them but they simply aren't at the top of the pile to be examined and analysed.
Personally I'm fine with that, plenty of pretty space related pictures over at Bad Astronomy to keep me going. :)

beethovenspiano
2010-Mar-02, 07:37 PM
Would you mind actually reading what I said before jumping the gun? Otherwise you risk making yourself look foolish.

I said that the scientists have priority, not exclusive rights. That is as it should be. They designed and built the machine in order to obtain data, and they have the right to get that data first before releasing it to the public. I said the public had no right to expect immediate release of the images, not that they had no right to expect it at all.

You actually say the images are scientific data taken for scientific reasons and they are NOT obtained for out benefit - therefore, perhaps it is you who should read what you posted more carefully.

beethovenspiano
2010-Mar-02, 07:41 PM
What?????:eek::eek: You have got to be kidding there. Only for scientists you say, not the dumb ignorant public you mean?

Actually he said no such thing..

In my opinion, it was clearly implied.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-02, 07:46 PM
You actually say the images are scientific data taken for scientific reasons and they are NOT obtained for out benefit - therefore, perhaps it is you who should read what you posted more carefully.

Even if it were what he said, what's wrong with that? It's true. They aren't. The science is for our benefit, but the pictures are for more than just us going, "Oooooo!" If NASA were spending all its money on just taking pretty pictures, wouldn't that be a terrible waste?

captain swoop
2010-Mar-02, 10:58 PM
I see no conspiracy claim here, just complaining and argument to no good end. Threead Closed' If anyone can think of a good reason for keeping it open they can suggest a different location for it. But it better be a good reason