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View Full Version : Lucas' disservice to the Padme Amidala character.



Buttercup
2010-Mar-16, 12:26 PM
Last evening I watched the deleted scenes on Disk 2 of Attack of the Clones. I was surprised at how much background information on Padme (my favorite SW character) Lucas deliberately withheld from the finished product. :(

He and two colleagues mostly explained this as saving minutes, as the film was already too long. :rolleyes: I don't buy that (with 1 exception), as including the scenes would have added maybe only 5 minutes maximum to the film -- including only (approximately) 40 seconds of dialogue between Padme and Anakin as they've just arrived on Naboo.

One scene in particular should have been included: She and Anakin visiting her parents and sister at the family home. Padme's little nieces giggling and playing with R2D2, and he "prancing" playfully around them, was especially cute. :D They go indoors, meet Padme's parents and sister; brief chit-chat as food is served.

The other was Padme's packing items in her bedroom. On the walls are holograms of her at various ages and places. She tells Anakin she has no private dwelling of her own, and has liked being home.

[The one scene I do understand being cut is after lunch, in the kitchen with her mother and sister. Sister teases Padme about Anakin, whom we see strolling outdoors with Padme's father through a window.]

I feel Lucas did a huge disservice to Padme and her fans. It's as though he sacrificed her in favor of Anakin, whose character is already very well established.

ToSeek
2010-Mar-16, 03:35 PM
Moved from BABBling to SM@L.

EDG
2010-Mar-16, 04:27 PM
She had a character? ;)

Gillianren
2010-Mar-16, 06:40 PM
Lucas can't characterize women for beans. Leia was an anomaly.

Actually, I'm trying to understand what makes the original trilogy good and the prequels so terrible. Did his skill slip?

Buttercup
2010-Mar-16, 06:48 PM
Actually I thought he did a wonderful job in the creation of Padme. :) She's intelligent, compassionate, kind, noble, patient. I immediately loved her when viewing Phantom Menace for the first time, and wondered if Lucas based her somewhat on Joan of Arc.

I seldom cry over fiction, but did in 2005 (at the theater) during the birthing and funeral scenes.

That's why I'm unhappy with 3 out of 4 scenes being withheld. The films are generally overkill of "sword and sorcery," dozens of types of spacecraft, exotic backdrops and aliens; Lucas couldn't have spared an additional 5 minutes on Padme in Attack of the Clones? He also cut 2 or 3 scenes featuring her in Revenge of the Sith.

Surely female fans and some male too might have appreciated those scenes being included. How much time was given for Jar-Jar Binks by comparison? :sick:

Give. Me. A. Break. :rolleyes:

SeanF
2010-Mar-16, 06:58 PM
The thing that bugs me the most about how Padme was dealt with in the prequels was having her die in childbirth.

Leia in ROTJ remembered her birth mother, and her description of Padme - "beautiful, but sad" - would have been touching to see.

Xelebes
2010-Mar-16, 07:00 PM
Lucas can't characterize women for beans. Leia was an anomaly.

Actually, I'm trying to understand what makes the original trilogy good and the prequels so terrible. Did his skill slip?

He tried cramming in too much with the prequels, I believe.

John Jaksich
2010-Mar-16, 07:16 PM
If I am not mistaken--Lucas "tends" to develop characterizations based upon what may be described (by the late Prof. Joseph Campbell)---as archetypal male heroes...

I believe most of us--( I hope to be correctly assuming ) --are somewhat familiar with Campbell's description of the archetypal hero in his publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces

John Jaksich
2010-Mar-16, 07:19 PM
By the way --- I also don't know why he was unable to give a better characterizations to his pre-quels

Buttercup
2010-Mar-16, 07:19 PM
SeanF:
Leia in ROTJ remembered her birth mother, and her description of Padme - "beautiful, but sad" - would have been touching to see.

Yep.

Lucas could have easily written that Padme got away with the twins and successfully went into hiding for 4 or 5 years...until Vader found her (and meanwhile the children were safely secreted away just in time).

NEOWatcher
2010-Mar-16, 07:29 PM
Lucas could have easily written that Padme got away with the twins and successfully went into hiding for 4 or 5 years...until Vader found her (and meanwhile the children were safely secreted away just in time).
Or better yet, Luke could have been taken at birth to hide the fact that there were twins, since he doesn't remember his mother. Then any other situation could unfold after that.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-16, 07:47 PM
You are only just watching those.

Well yea she was ok in the first movie and a little stronger character in the second movie. But in the third she was more of a lap puppy. Giving the line you keep hearing on Cops when a guy in a sleeveless tee-shirt is shoved into the back of a cop car. If she had stayed with him she would have been "falling down the stairs" a lot.

But I do agree those scenes did give her more life, but the whole "love story" part of that movie was really running the plot into the mud all ready. Anyway she was the reason the Sith were able to gain enough power to take over.

And yea Lucas was not even trying at times with retconing between the movies.

Fazor
2010-Mar-16, 07:51 PM
You know, to this day I have not seen Episode III. I was a huge original trilogy geek growing up. I mean, I couldn't run with the biggest fanboys or anything. I never learned the names and backgrounds of every creature ever shown on screen. But I saw the movies dozens of times.

Then came Episode I. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I just didn't like it. Maybe I never even gave it a fair chance. Who knows.

The second movie bored me to death.

By the third movie, I just didn't care. I mean, I already knew the lore surrounding the whole Aniken - to - Vader, Obi Wan, Imperial yadda yadda. And episode 1 and 2 were so underwhelming. I never felt like I was missing anything by not seeing episode 3.

. . . by the way, I just saw Family Guy's "Something Something Darkside". Hilarious! Not as good as 'Blue Harvest', but I still loved it. I can't wait for them to do the third.

Swift
2010-Mar-16, 08:51 PM
I saw Episode III in the movies (and I think most of it on TV once), but I'm with you Fazor. Seen the "first" three dozens of times, thought Episode I was a big "OK" and it went down hill from there.

I was very disappointed in all of the prequels. I don't know what went wrong with Lucas, but he certainly lost his way. I almost wonder if he really didn't care any more, or just wasn't "hungry" any more.

AndreasJ
2010-Mar-16, 08:55 PM
Actually, I'm trying to understand what makes the original trilogy good and the prequels so terrible. Did his skill slip?
I believe Protection From Editors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtectionFromEditors) to be at least part of the answer.

Glom
2010-Mar-16, 08:55 PM
Actually I thought he did a wonderful job in the creation of Padme. :) She's intelligent, compassionate, kind, noble, patient. I immediately loved her when viewing Phantom Menace for the first time, and wondered if Lucas based her somewhat on Joan of Arc.

Not to destroy your fantasy too much, but consider this:

She meets Anakin Skywalker as an adult for the first time and immediately witnesses him acting like a shower to his master not to mention flirting in the most creepy way. They then have conversations in which Anakin acts like the most insufferably petulant and obnoxious jerk when talking about how much Obi-wan sucks while continuing to look at her like a sexual predator.

On Naboo, he rags on her in front of the Queen and then describes his disdain for democracy and his approval of a dictatorship, and basically everything Padme stands against.

On Tatooine, he then proceeds to commit mass murder.

In spite of all this, Padme still marries him. She then acts all shocked upon hearing that Anakin killed younglings.

She's clearly a complete tool.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-16, 09:29 PM
Which makes her all the more disappointing after Leia.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Mar-16, 10:37 PM
Lucas can't characterize women for beans. Leia was an anomaly.

Actually, I'm trying to understand what makes the original trilogy good and the prequels so terrible. Did his skill slip?
I think part of it was that in the first series he was at the cutting edge of storytelling when he was introducing Epic Fantasy to Sci Fi, so he cared for the story.

In the second series he was at the cutting edge of CGI, so he cared for the CGI and let the story slip.

Buttercup
2010-Mar-16, 10:48 PM
Henrik:
I think part of it was that in the first series he was at the cutting edge of storytelling when he was introducing Epic Fantasy to Sci Fi, so he cared for the story.

In the second series he was at the cutting edge of CGI, so he cared for the CGI and let the story slip.

I've thought that too. Lucas was like a kid in a candy store, able to do in the 2nd trilogy what he could only have dreamed of doing in the 1st. Understandable to a point, but he went beyond the point. I still can't believe he wasted an entire film on Anakin as a child. At least the last half of it should have introduced Hayden Christensen and got the ball rolling from there, building up and leading into Attack of the Clones.

The dialogue in "Sith" is rather abyssmal and none of the main actors (aside from Ewan McGregor, who obviously loves his art and the role) seemed as plugged into their characters as they'd been before.

Romanus
2010-Mar-16, 11:14 PM
Actually, I'm trying to understand what makes the original trilogy good and the prequels so terrible. Did his skill slip?

A New Hope: It was a gamble, something he was doing for the first time, so he had to give it his all (and did).

The Empire Strikes Back: Mostly out of Lucas's hands, and...well...best to let the work speak for itself.

Return of the Jedi: If you think about this, this is the most "prequel-like" of the original trilogy, with tons of action, multiple simultaneous battles, and cookies thrown to the juvenile set (Ewoks).

In short, Lucas was stylistically heading toward Phantom Menace and beyond a long time ago, IMO.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-16, 11:33 PM
Am I the only person who liked the Ewoks? And is it too much to wish that one of the two people he'd cast as Anakin could act?

Romanus
2010-Mar-16, 11:42 PM
I liked the Ewoks--a lot. But, they're definitely heading toward Late-Lucas. And I agree; when directors with only a fraction of Lucas's war chest can dig up killer talent time and again (Quentin Tarantino, Danny Boyle, et al.), Lucas's picks are puzzling, to say the least. Heaven knows the writing is half the problem, though.

SkepticJ
2010-Mar-17, 12:53 AM
Am I the only person who liked the Ewoks? And is it too much to wish that one of the two people he'd cast as Anakin could act?

I think the hate of the Ewoks stems not from that they exist in Jedi--who can hate living teddy bears?--but that they win a battle against the Empire.

Stone Age, tree house-dwelling, three-foot-tall teddy bears defeat a legion of the Galactic Empire's best troops.

Just what is Storm Trooper armor for? It doesn't stop arrows, or even rocks and clubs.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-17, 03:00 AM
How well does it stop blasters? I suspect the Empire cares a lot more about that than clubs.

SkepticJ
2010-Mar-17, 03:24 AM
Somewhere between a 0% success rate and actively attracting blaster-fire.

novaderrik
2010-Mar-17, 04:29 AM
where are all the people that pointed out in the thread i started a couple of weeks ago that the Stormtroopers as seen in most of the original trilogy were being incompetent on purpose? the only time they weren't completely bad at being stormtroopers was at the very beginning of ep4 when they captured Leia (which came to an end when they let the "empty" escape capsule fly away) and on Hoth when they overran the rebel base.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-17, 04:55 AM
That is so sadly true. I really think that is one reason a lot of people like Empire. We get to see they are not complete idiots. Though they do slip up at times they do show why they are ruling most of the Galaxy. But they did show they had an idea what they were doing when they took out the Jawa sandcrawler and took care of Owen and Beru.

But back on subject, Lucas has even admitted he is weak on female characters. He may be too influenced my all of the serials he watched as a kid. The women in those are the 50's idea of a strong woman, until they run into trouble every episode. Then they fit into the "stupid blonde" area while walking right into noticeable traps and danger.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-17, 06:28 AM
You know, Stephen King threw out the beginning of the book that would be called Carrie because he didn't know how to write teenage girls. So he got help at it. I don't think Carrie is a great book, but that's almost not the point. The point is, he knew he did it badly, so he got an actual woman (his long-suffering wife, Tabbie, who'd rescued the pages from the trash) to tell him how to do it.

Jens
2010-Mar-17, 06:51 AM
Just a guess, but the fact that he put out episode IV first, knowingly, may be because he felt it was a great idea, and had ideas for episodes 1-3 but didn't think they were good enough to make into the first film. So obviously, when they did come out, they weren't as good.

Ronald Brak
2010-Mar-17, 07:09 AM
I think movie reviewer Redlettermedia might be onto to something when he says the that the original two Star Wars movies were probably good because Lucus didn't have a free hand. (Believe it or not, sometimes the studio execs get it right.) But once he had the power to do what he wanted the movie quality suffered, starting with Return of the Jedi.

You can listen to Redlettermedia explain this in the final part of his review of The Phantom Menace on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIWKMgJs_Gs&feature=related

Or you can watch the entire 7 part review. It's quite entertaining. But I must alert all non-Australians that it contains some very rude words indeed. I think Bigdon might be able to handle it, but I have virtual smelling salts for anyone who might need them.

NEOWatcher
2010-Mar-17, 04:44 PM
Somewhere I heard...
With the success of the original trilogy and the aging of the people that followed it, the task was to gain a whole new generation to be hooked on it.
Therefore; the target audience was the young ones to be raised on Star Wars. Where the original trilogy was more for the action and science fiction audiences (and a way to highlight the new special effects)

novaderrik
2010-Mar-17, 04:45 PM
Just a guess, but the fact that he put out episode IV first, knowingly, may be because he felt it was a great idea, and had ideas for episodes 1-3 but didn't think they were good enough to make into the first film. So obviously, when they did come out, they weren't as good.

when he put or episode 4, it wasn't episode 4.. it was just Star Wars. the "episode 4:A New Hope" tagline got added later. it was just a standalone space adventure where the good guys win. he might have had some sort of an outline of what was going on for basic character backgrounds and what not, but you can bet that most everything that led up to the original movie (beyond some basic character and plot outlines) was thought up after the first one became a hit.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-17, 04:46 PM
Somewhere I heard...
With the success of the original trilogy and the aging of the people that followed it, the task was to gain a whole new generation to be hooked on it.
Therefore; the target audience was the young ones to be raised on Star Wars. Where the original trilogy was more for the action and science fiction audiences (and a way to highlight the new special effects)

I do know that Liam Neeson wouldn't let his kids watch the first one when it came out, because they were pretty young and didn't need to see Daddy's funeral even in fiction.

Swift
2010-Mar-17, 07:52 PM
Am I the only person who liked the Ewoks?
I doubt you are the only one. ;) I didn't hate them (they are wonderful compared to Jar-Jar), but I didn't love them either. They were a little too cute.


And is it too much to wish that one of the two people he'd cast as Anakin could act?
While it seems a reasonable wish, all the available evidence is that yes, it was too much to wish for.

Buttercup
2010-Mar-17, 08:01 PM
And is it too much to wish that one of the two people he'd cast as Anakin could act?

While it seems a reasonable wish, all the available evidence is that yes, it was too much to wish for.

Huh? I thought Jake Lloyd did a fine job as little Anakin.

Hayden Christensen's acting in II was better than in III. But as a friend of mine (who is into the independent film scene) pointed out, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher both complained about Lucas' dialogue; Ford's on record as having said "You can't say the lines." And at one point Lucas got upset and simply ordered them to say the lines, act!

So if Ford and Fisher both mentioned difficulty acting what the script and dialogue called for...

My friend doesn't have a very high opinion of SW dialogue overall.

Swift
2010-Mar-17, 08:03 PM
when he put or episode 4, it wasn't episode 4.. it was just Star Wars. the "episode 4:A New Hope" tagline got added later. it was just a standalone space adventure where the good guys win. he might have had some sort of an outline of what was going on for basic character backgrounds and what not, but you can bet that most everything that led up to the original movie (beyond some basic character and plot outlines) was thought up after the first one became a hit.
The story I heard during the time that the first three were coming out (what are now called Episodes 4 to 6 - I probably heard this some time after Episode 4), was that Lucas' grand plan was 9 movies, three trilogies.

The first three would be the fall of the old Republic, the rise of the Empire and Darth Vader, and they would end with the birth of Luke and Leia (which is basically how they ended up). The middle three would be the "coming of age" of Luke and Leia, the return of the Jedi, and the first steps of the fall of the Empire (which again, is basically how it turned out). The last trilogy would be the establishment of the New Republic and the Jedi order. It would seem apparent that the Empire didn't just collapse with the destruction of the 2nd Death Star and the death of Darth Vader and the Emperor (which seems reasonable) and obviously it would take three movies to work everything out (I also suspect there would be other things going on).

The other unifying theme through all nine movies is that there would be two characters who would be in all nine, and the subplot of the whole series is that it was their "life" story - the two robots.

Overall, an interesting idea, and you can see lots of it in what happened. I don't know if this was Lucas' plan from before the very first movie, or it developed later. It is just too bad the execution wasn't better.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Mar-17, 08:14 PM
I doubt you are the only one. ;) I didn't hate them (they are wonderful compared to Jar-Jar), but I didn't love them either. They were a little too cute.
The bit that struck me as jarring with the Ewoks and this made them irritating to me was their bumbling movement patterns, they move like infants rather than adults, while at the same time having an advanced stone-age level technology.
It's too cutesy.

Noclevername
2010-Mar-17, 09:34 PM
Lucas did more disservice to Padme than a few cut scenes; I believe the trope is called "Women In Refrigerators"-- the girlfriend/wife who dies for no other reason than to make the Hero darker and broodier and/or more violent. Anakin's mother is killed the same way-- just to make Ani go on a roaring rampage of revenge. And even before her death from a broken script, I mean heart, Padme had already wimpified from an action-hero herself to a swooning loveslave whose entire existence revolved around Anakin.

(Lucas also did a disservice to the fans by writing the prequel trilogy so crappily overall, but that's a separate rant.)

AndreasJ
2010-Mar-17, 09:41 PM
On the subject of Ewoks, this motivational poster summarizes my feelings:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/tlc49/motivator_ewok.jpg

Glom
2010-Mar-17, 09:45 PM
The other unifying theme through all nine movies is that there would be two characters who would be in all nine, and the subplot of the whole series is that it was their "life" story - the two robots.

Except that this idea doesn't work. In the original movie, you could sell it that way, particularly with the slow yet surprisingly charming focus on the Droids getting lost in the desert of Tatooine at the beginning. But the involvement of the droids in the prequel trilogy makes no sense at all. It takes more than "they were in all nine" to use them as the continuity.

korjik
2010-Mar-17, 09:45 PM
I am still of the opinion that Lucas made the prequel trilogy suck because he wanted the fanboys to stop pestering him to make another movie.

:)

SydneyNot
2010-Mar-17, 11:22 PM
You know, to this day I have not seen Episode III. I was a huge original trilogy geek growing up. I mean, I couldn't run with the biggest fanboys or anything. I never learned the names and backgrounds of every creature ever shown on screen. But I saw the movies dozens of times.

Then came Episode I. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I just didn't like it. Maybe I never even gave it a fair chance. Who knows.

The second movie bored me to death.

By the third movie, I just didn't care. I mean, I already knew the lore surrounding the whole Aniken - to - Vader, Obi Wan, Imperial yadda yadda. And episode 1 and 2 were so underwhelming. I never felt like I was missing anything by not seeing episode 3.

For me in part, it was the loss of mystery. I knew Aniken ends up as Darth Vader. As a 13 year old, I remember being stunned and later in denial over Luke's father being Darth Vader. The prequel was like watching history and not making it.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-18, 12:20 AM
Huh? I thought Jake Lloyd did a fine job as little Anakin.

It is at least true that it's difficult to find child actors who can actually act.


Hayden Christensen's acting in II was better than in III. But as a friend of mine (who is into the independent film scene) pointed out, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher both complained about Lucas' dialogue; Ford's on record as having said "You can't say the lines." And at one point Lucas got upset and simply ordered them to say the lines, act!

And that, boys and girls, is a fine example of why Lucas needs someone to ride herd over him.


So if Ford and Fisher both mentioned difficulty acting what the script and dialogue called for...

And yet they were believable. They brought more depth to the characters than the dialogue did, and you could certainly believe the nature of the relationship.


My friend doesn't have a very high opinion of SW dialogue overall.

Certainly the man isn't the best creator of dialogue out there, though I promise you I can list worse.


Lucas did more disservice to Padme than a few cut scenes; I believe the trope is called "Women In Refrigerators"-- the girlfriend/wife who dies for no other reason than to make the Hero darker and broodier and/or more violent. Anakin's mother is killed the same way-- just to make Ani go on a roaring rampage of revenge. And even before her death from a broken script, I mean heart, Padme had already wimpified from an action-hero herself to a swooning loveslave whose entire existence revolved around Anakin.

That's the one. Frankly, the whole of the prequel trilogy made me wonder about his relationships with women. (For the record, the trope refers to an actual event in a comic in which an actual female character was stuffed in an actual fridge.) Of course, Lucas needed her to depend on the male characters, because that's the buildup he needs. It would be better, though, had Padme realized for herself what a creep Anakin was and walked out on her own before finding out she was pregnant and then making arrangements on her own for the twins--and living until Leia could remember her. You can be independent and still sad.


(Lucas also did a disservice to the fans by writing the prequel trilogy so crappily overall, but that's a separate rant.)

Some people need oversight. Someone who could have helped with the dialogue might also, Gods love them, make a better ending.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-18, 01:35 AM
Certainly the man isn't the best creator of dialogue out there, though I promise you I can list worse.
Like the Plan 9 "Solarbonite" speech.

But the crazy part of the Padme story. Is I think Lucas meant to do it. If you watch the movies and work out everything Palpatine did making her do what ever he wanted her to do. The two attempts on her life were faked, Palpatine wanted her to live so she would hookup with Anakin. He somehow got the sandpeople to kidnap Anakin's mother and torture her to make him go there knowing when she died Anakin would then use Padme as a crutch. And he had to know about the marriage (small rant*) and her being pregnant. And he knew about her impending death and knowing Anakin's attachment to her, he knew how to break him away from Obi-Wan.


*(quite frankly I don't see how people didn't know about it does Corrasont not have any tabloid news papers, really a up and coming jedi and a mouthy senator get married and live together and nobody knows, then she walks around as big as a house in loose fitting clothing when a few months before everything she wore was almost skintight showing off her curves, Really you would think their version of FOX news would have said something about it.....)

Daffy
2010-Mar-18, 03:09 PM
I am still of the opinion that Lucas made the prequel trilogy suck because he wanted the fanboys to stop pestering him to make another movie.

:)

Can we please start beating people who use the word "fanboy?" ;)

I think (everyone has an opinion) what happened was that Lucas lost sight of what made the original so great...it was an updated, amped up version of the old Saturday morning serials (ask your grandparents); it was fast, fun, and brainless. Then, at some point, Lucas wanted the whole thing to be taken seriously as literature...and it just doesn't have the framework for it. It's like insisting Huckleberry Hound is a metaphor for Greek tragedy.

Buttercup
2010-Mar-18, 03:57 PM
It seems like Padme is merely a love slave and a tool, but if the withheld scenes had been included (in both Eps. II & III), you'd see that while she is blinded with love for Anakin (a common thing in romantic love) she also is still plugged in and aware and active, politically speaking. For instance, she makes an urgent appeal to Palpatine in his office with supporters at her side, and she holds a brief conference with other senators in her anteroom (?); Padme in Eps. III is not merely brushing her hair while gazing at the cityscape and wearing pretty nightgowns and bursting into tears -- which is as Lucas ultimately portrays her. :(

Lucas did flesh out the Padme character and gave her additional substance -- both actively politically still, and privately.

But that wound up in deleted scenes. :( Shame on him!

Gillianren
2010-Mar-18, 04:41 PM
I'm still not convinced that anything in deleted scenes could elevate her from Woman in a Refrigerator status. Some of that attitude would either have to make it into other scenes or else be really out of place in the ones described.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-18, 07:38 PM
I agree with Buttercup on the deleted scenes may have helped the character some. But at the end of the day she is the woman on COPS with a black eye saying, "Don't take him away. I still need him." and "There is still good in him, I just need to bring it out." Yes, I see it as an abusive relationship. In fact I would bet that choke at the end of III was not the only time he has hurt her in some way. And yes again, Anikan Skywalker is a wife-beater and if she had stayed around with the kids he would have beat them as well.

Buttercup
2010-Mar-18, 08:08 PM
I agree with Buttercup on the deleted scenes may have helped the character some.

:)


But at the end of the day she is the woman on COPS with a black eye saying, "Don't take him away. I still need him." and "There is still good in him, I just need to bring it out." Yes, I see it as an abusive relationship.

Imo Padme was definitely playing his "Rescuer": From his troubled childhood, mother's death, the seeming unfairness of the Jedi Council, etc.


In fact I would bet that choke at the end of III was not the only time he has hurt her in some way.

I disagree, and think it was the 1st time. And definitely he'd have abused her a lot after that (if Obi-Wan hadn't been a stowaway to Mustafar).

Gillianren
2010-Mar-18, 08:41 PM
Imo Padme was definitely playing his "Rescuer": From his troubled childhood, mother's death, the seeming unfairness of the Jedi Council, etc.

Yup. A healthy relationship, that!


I disagree, and think it was the 1st time. And definitely he'd have abused her a lot after that (if Obi-Wan hadn't been a stowaway to Mustafar).

First time or not, it's only circumstances which prevented it from being the last. Any strength the character may or may not have shown before that would not have lasted in that relationship. In real-world relationships, cutting her off from everyone but Anakin would have been an inevitable step, too. Yeah, there are real-world abusive relationships, but since there are realistically only two major female characters in the entirety of the six movies, having one be such a doormat--and let's consider the fact that any scenes giving Padme real strength were cut--is kind of vexing. Shoot, even Leia was involved with someone emotionally distant who didn't really have much of anything in common with her.

Though, come to that, so am I. So there we are. (Exaggeration for effect, but he is emotionally distant, and from the outside, we seem to have less in common than we really do.)

mike alexander
2010-Mar-18, 09:01 PM
They should have just given the little booger a big dose of antibiotics to wipe out the metachlorans and save us all a whole lot of trouble.

Seriously, Anakin was a walking creepshow, and the inability of the Jedi to do anything about him with all the evidence in their faces was like watching the US Senate trying to pass a bill.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-18, 11:18 PM
*For the first time looks at your signature....*

All of my anger and hostility at that movie won't change your mind will it......? Didn't think so. ;)

But to add a thought on the subject (kind of). Watch in one the cut scenes you will see Mon Mothma working with Padme to "fix" the senate and Republic. (she is the redhead) And she is also in ROTJ still working to save the Republic and after she becomes leader of the new Republic. She is even one of the starting forces that got the rebellion going. Now this is a strong woman character who was able to keep focused on what needed to be done for the best for all. Star Wars does have a number of strong women in it. But most of them are working in the background.

And yes I am a fanboy. Not a high level one maybe only 7th or 8th level. I have a lot of experience and skill points to spend till I get real high. But multiclassing as a treki (or trecker) is not helping.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Mar-19, 06:58 PM
Trekkie, trekker or trekkist, depending on focus, not treki.

Noclevername
2010-Mar-21, 12:08 AM
They should have just given the little booger a big dose of antibiotics to wipe out the metachlorans and save us all a whole lot of trouble.

<nitpick> Midichlorians. </nitpick>

Delvo
2010-Mar-21, 11:10 PM
I think the disservice to Skywalker was greater. He was described originally as honorable and noble, and what we got was benevolent at best but still short-fused and short-minded all along. He was also described originally as spectacularly powerful compared to other Jedi (and Sith), but didn't end up getting shown doing anything particularly outstanding with his alleged powers and turned out to be rather unimportant in the big picture because the major changes in the galaxy happened before he switched sides, rather than as a result of it.

The movies ended up doing a great job with a couple of other characters, Kenobi and Palpatine, but those weren't the ones they were supposed to be focusing on and promoting.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-22, 02:02 AM
But as somewhat posted before. I think that was due to the weakness of Hayden Christensen as an actor, they more or less cast a face with him. Then you have actors like Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid on the same screen with him that weakness really shows. Lucas did seem to change Anakin into an "hansom badboy" that the female protagonist wanted to help.


<nit-pick> Midichlorians. </nit-pick>
<nit-pick>Midi-chlorians</nit-pick>
;)

Buttercup
2010-Mar-22, 02:27 AM
I think the disservice to Skywalker was greater. He was described originally as honorable and noble, and what we got was benevolent at best but still short-fused and short-minded all along. He was also described originally as spectacularly powerful compared to other Jedi (and Sith), but didn't end up getting shown doing anything particularly outstanding with his alleged powers and turned out to be rather unimportant in the big picture because the major changes in the galaxy happened before he switched sides, rather than as a result of it.

The movies ended up doing a great job with a couple of other characters, Kenobi and Palpatine, but those weren't the ones they were supposed to be focusing on and promoting.

Yes, I see your points and agree. And is it probably correct to say that was Lucas' original intention before Darth Vader was made Luke's father? I don't know a lot of Lucas' history with how he originally envisioned it. But I also believe he never originally intended to have Luke and Leia as siblings either. So when Vader became Luke's father, the entire dynamic changed of course.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-22, 03:18 AM
Well think in ep IV, he was working in that Vader was Luke's father.
remember:

Beru: "Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him."
Owen: "That's what I am afraid of."

So at least at that point and time the father angle was in the movie. And the twin angle was in a early draft of what I understand. I still don't know what they kissed so much though. But Lucas dropped the ball on a lot of retconing in the prequels. For every point that connected many others didn't.

Gillianren
2010-Mar-22, 03:45 AM
I'm not sure I'd count twice (once "for luck" and once to get back at Han, as I recall, and in two separate movies) as "so much." I do think Lucas takes a lot of credit for "how I intended things all along" when it's obvious that he didn't.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-22, 04:17 AM
2? You need to watch ROTJ again. There is another "for luck" on Jaba's barge. Then there are a couple of cut scenes that have some near kisses. One is before the "get back at Han" kiss. And another one was in a hallway on Hoth. And those two look like a near Angelina Jolie level brother kiss.
Link1 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Leia_luke_kiss.jpg)
Link2 (http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/episode5/mask.html)

SkepticJ
2010-Mar-22, 04:35 AM
What, like you've never made out with one of your siblings before?

In all seriousness, though, Luke and Leia didn't know they were brother and sister at those times, and they weren't raised together--so even the Westermarck effect wouldn't come into play.

SeanF
2010-Mar-22, 01:38 PM
It's probably worth noting that, at the very least, Lucas knew they were siblings when they filmed the kiss on Jabba's barge.

BTW, while I have my doubts about whether Lucas intended for Vader to be Luke's father all along, I do firmly believe that he had more story in mind for the two of them.

Even taking the original "Star Wars" at its word, establishing that the villain killed the hero's father and then ending the movie without the two even meeting face-to-face sure seems like incomplete story-telling. :)

vonmazur
2010-Mar-22, 08:52 PM
Guys: I agree with the premise that Padme was stuffed into the galactic refrigerator, or what ever...Carbonite...

Has anyone else noticed some of the other stuff in these films, like the home planet of Padme, "Maxfield Parrish"....The Bendix B 17 Ball turret and Darth Vader's TIE Fighter....among many examples..

Sometimes I would like to see a truly alien planet or culture...I know it would be hard to do, so they use visual shorthand symbols for the idea of "alien". (I realize that too much expository materiel would be required for the current culture to "get it"....)

Still it might not be too difficult to try sometime....

Dale in AL

SkepticJ
2010-Mar-22, 09:47 PM
Has anyone else noticed some of the other stuff in these films, like the home planet of Padme, "Maxfield Parrish"....The Bendix B 17 Ball turret and Darth Vader's TIE Fighter....among many examples..

The most alien thing you can think of looks at least vaguely like something known you can point to.

I'm not saying anything in Star Wars is alien, however.


Sometimes I would like to see a truly alien planet or culture...I know it would be hard to do, so they use visual shorthand symbols for the idea of "alien". (I realize that too much expository materiel would be required for the current culture to "get it"....)

Still it might not be too difficult to try sometime....

Dale in AL

I wager within the next few decades we'll get it, as the enabling technology to create it becomes available to the masses.

Until then, it probably won't happen. Seen as too much of a market risk. Regrettably, it probably actually is--we're a minority demographic.

Van Rijn
2010-Mar-22, 11:49 PM
Sometimes I would like to see a truly alien planet or culture...I know it would be hard to do, so they use visual shorthand symbols for the idea of "alien". (I realize that too much expository materiel would be required for the current culture to "get it"....)


Even in written science fiction aliens usually act very similar to humans. The less human it is, the harder it is for the writer to explain, and the harder it is for readers to relate. And, I'll admit, sometimes I prefer something I think isn't as likely, but is more fun to read.

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-23, 09:22 PM
Well some of Lovecraft's creatures were non-human in ways. Like the Yith.


But back to point.
After a quick rewatching of the movies I am going to have to say the same thing about Porman as I said about Christensen. They were both weak actors compared to the stronger talent in the movies. Keep in mind I am not saying they are outright bad actors, just not strong enough to bring life to Lucas' writing style. But at times you do wonder if they are just "reading the script" and not bringing any of their selves to the part.

Really, some of the line reading are David Duchovny X-Files level flat.

Noclevername
2010-Mar-25, 02:19 PM
<nit-pick>Midi-chlorians</nit-pick>
;)

I've seen it spelled both ways.

vonmazur
2010-Mar-25, 07:31 PM
Vampirehunter; [nitpick...Portman, Natalie not Porman...nitpick off] I thought someone would have notice and posted...It's half the fun of this site....

I agree with your observation of the acting style, although some of this may just be the actors themselves not just the bad dialogue written for them, Harrison Ford had a hard time after SW and IJ for a while, complaints (in reviews) about his style were rampant in Presumed Innocent and some other films...As for Mark H, I cannot think of anything else he has done outside of SW, (Corvette Summer?)

Dale

Gillianren
2010-Mar-25, 08:08 PM
He's become an accomplished voice actor.

Moose
2010-Mar-26, 01:02 PM
I only have a second to post this, but I want to do it while I remember to: is there any clear (I mean _clear_) indication that Leia was aware she'd been adopted and that Luke was asking about Padmé?

Based on movie canon (anyway), there's no special reason that I'm aware of that Leia was answering the same question that Luke had asked. Leia may have been talking about the woman who raised her.

If I were to ask my mother what year my grandmother died, she'd reflexively answer somewhere in the late 1980s (I forget the exact year), and not the early 19(coughs)s.

SeanF
2010-Mar-26, 01:37 PM
I only have a second to post this, but I want to do it while I remember to: is there any clear (I mean _clear_) indication that Leia was aware she'd been adopted and that Luke was asking about Padmé?

Based on movie canon (anyway), there's no special reason that I'm aware of that Leia was answering the same question that Luke had asked. Leia may have been talking about the woman who raised her.

If I were to ask my mother what year my grandmother died, she'd reflexively answer somewhere in the late 1980s (I forget the exact year), and not the early 19(coughs)s.
Well, Luke exact words were, "Do you remember your mother - your real mother?"

Which, BTW, I - as an adoptive parent myself - take exception to on a whole other level. :)

Gillianren
2010-Mar-26, 05:54 PM
As a birth parent, so do I!

HenrikOlsen
2010-Mar-26, 07:40 PM
As for Mark H, I cannot think of anything else he has done outside of SW, (Corvette Summer?)

Dale
Small part Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0261392/), where he admittedly parodied Star Wars and his role in it, to the point where he gets his hand cut off in a light saber battle to the obligatory whiny cry of "not again".

vampirehunter42
2010-Mar-27, 01:59 AM
Vampirehunter; [nitpick...Portman, Natalie not Porman...nitpick off] I thought someone would have notice and posted...It's half the fun of this site....

Sorry lazy finger, I was looking at the name at the time as well.


And yea, Mark H has done a lot of voice work. Namely he is the Joker on the Batman animated series. And don't forget Wing Commander.

jamesabrown
2010-Mar-27, 03:04 AM
I think Mark Hamil did a part on a SeaQuest episode as well. Played a blind scientist, as I recall.

SkepticJ
2010-Mar-27, 04:25 AM
Yeah, in the episodes where the seaQuest was abducted by extraterrestrial because they didn't have any submarines to use in a war.

Boy howdy, did that series ever fall from greatness!

jamesabrown
2010-Mar-27, 08:55 AM
Yeah, in the episodes where the seaQuest was abducted by extraterrestrial because they didn't have any submarines to use in a war.

Boy howdy, did that series ever fall from greatness!

Indeed. The pilot started off as a pre-apocalyptic dystopia. Then Season One was fun and cool.

Then Season Two brought in aliens and psychics and waaay too much woo.

Could have been a great series.

CJSF
2010-Mar-28, 12:03 AM
Wasn't Mark Hamil in The Guyver?

CJSF

Romanus
2010-Mar-28, 01:39 AM
There's a part in Jay and Silent Bob where Hamill sneers just the way the Joker did in Batman: The Animated Series. :)

novaderrik
2010-Mar-28, 06:31 AM
Sorry lazy finger, I was looking at the name at the time as well.


And yea, Mark H has done a lot of voice work. Namely he is the Joker on the Batman animated series. And don't forget Wing Commander.

he's also been in pretty much every episode of Metalocalypse, a bunch of episodes of Robot Chicken, and on Family Guy a few times, too.