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Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-28, 08:20 PM
I'm just wondering the Mayans said 2012 but Nostradamus said 2060 in one of his predictions can someone please clear this up for me?

Strange
2010-Mar-28, 08:43 PM
The Mayans said what about 2012? Nothing as far as I know. There is nothing special about 2012.

And what did Nostradamus say about 2060? I doubt anything he said can be related to anything specific like a year (or even a decade or even a century).

kleindoofy
2010-Mar-28, 08:48 PM
... can someone please clear this up for me?
Yup. Both assumptions are a crock. :whistle:

[edit:] I don't mean Gamefreak89's question. I mean the assumptions certain woo's try to fabricate out of nothing.

@Gamefreak89: you're best off just ignoring the bunk you're hearing about the end being nigh.

grant hutchison
2010-Mar-28, 09:07 PM
I'm just wondering the Mayans said 2012 but Nostradamus said 2060 in one of his predictions can someone please clear this up for me?They're distinguished from many, many other end-of-the-world predictions only by the fact that the dates haven't arrived yet.

Grant Hutchison

Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-28, 09:08 PM
Yup. Both assumptions are a crock. :whistle:

[edit:] I don't mean Gamefreak89's question. I mean the assumptions certain woo's try to fabricate out of nothing.

@Gamefreak89: you're best off just ignoring the bunk you're hearing about the end being nigh.

Yeah Sure I'll try to like I always have been but I perfer 2060 over 2012 any day lol! Even though most of the stuff flying around these days is nonsense, propaganda, and politicians!

Nowhere Man
2010-Mar-28, 10:03 PM
Both predictions hold as much water as a colander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colander) with its bottom blown out.

Fred

EDG
2010-Mar-28, 10:45 PM
The annoying thing is that after 2012 the woowoos will be going on about Apophis instead.

Jens
2010-Mar-29, 01:43 AM
Yeah Sure I'll try to like I always have been but I perfer 2060 over 2012 any day lol! Even though most of the stuff flying around these days is nonsense, propaganda, and politicians!

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'll prophecy that the world is going to end in 2070. I've just given you an extra ten years.

kleindoofy
2010-Mar-29, 02:01 AM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'll prophecy that the world is going to end in 2070. I've just given you an extra ten years.
Blasphemy, you fool!

Everybody knows the world (as we know it) will end in 2069.

You are now my fow forever and I will never cease in fighting to prove you wrong. ;)

Celestial Mechanic
2010-Mar-29, 04:26 AM
As far as I know, Nostradamus almost NEVER put a date on any of his cheesy "quatrains". One of the few exceptions was 1999 and that one didn't come off.

The doomsday prediction for 2060 is not from Nostradamus but instead, I'm sorry to say, a calculation by Sir Isaac Newton. :sad:

Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-29, 04:35 AM
As far as I know, Nostradamus almost NEVER put a date on any of his cheesy "quatrains". One of the few exceptions was 1999 and that one didn't come off.

The doomsday prediction for 2060 is not from Nostradamus but instead, I'm sorry to say, a calculation by Sir Isaac Newton. :sad:

LOL thanks that is what I meant to say Newton predicted it not Nostradamus :whistle:

Jens
2010-Mar-29, 04:43 AM
You are now my fow forever and I will never cease in fighting to prove you wrong. ;)

If only I knew what a fow was, I would be able to decide whether I should be happy or sad at the declaration. :)

Actually, it's just a time zone thing. The destruction will take place in the early hours of Jan. 1, 2070, Tokyo time. In Germany you'll still be in 2069.

Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-29, 05:20 AM
If only I knew what a fow was, I would be able to decide whether I should be happy or sad at the declaration. :)

Actually, it's just a time zone thing. The destruction will take place in the early hours of Jan. 1, 2070, Tokyo time. In Germany you'll still be in 2069.


By then our level of technology will be able to handle just about anything.

mrpachies
2010-Mar-29, 08:13 PM
who really believes in this ??

Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-29, 08:59 PM
I don't know though just have to wait and see lol!

kleindoofy
2010-Mar-29, 10:13 PM
If only I knew what a fow was, ...
That is very typical.

They know when the world is going end, but they can't recognize a simple (yet unnecessary and very embarrassing) typo when they see it. ;)

Maybe that's why the world will end. Global incompetence! :lol:

Gamefreak89
2010-Mar-29, 11:35 PM
That I agree with and the idiots that follow. :)

scaro
2010-Apr-01, 04:11 AM
Lol, as for the Mayan part... every calender comes to an end. You don't get scared everytime you have to change your calender at home do you? If you do, maybe you should talk to someone about that, I'm sure you can get help :P

ravens_cry
2010-Apr-01, 04:49 AM
Both predictions hold as much water as a colander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colander) with its bottom blown out.

Fred
And the science falls flatter then a Möbius Pancake.

tnjrp
2010-Apr-01, 04:54 AM
Weell... While I'm sure somebody has already found out Old Nosty predicted EOTWAWKI in 2060 (as well as 1999 and 2012), some interpreters of his quatrains o' the weird seem to think he puts this event well beyond our time, in fact IIRC into 3000's. I think you may be thinking of Newton tho, he calculated the last year from the Bible at some point.

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-01, 05:20 AM
Lol that is earlier science for ya!

baric
2010-Apr-05, 04:37 PM
When I was a kid, Marvel Comics had some stories set in 3000.

Therefore, we know the world will last as least that long or else none of Stan Lee's prophecies will make any sense.

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-05, 09:03 PM
LOL I can see that happening.

danscope
2010-Apr-06, 01:28 AM
Listen: The Mayan Calendar stopped there because he guy ran out of stone.

My son-in-law says that the job was under-funded. :)

Dan

mantiss
2010-Apr-06, 07:08 PM
Weell... While I'm sure somebody has already found out Old Nosty predicted EOTWAWKI in 2060 (as well as 1999 and 2012), some interpreters of his quatrains o' the weird seem to think he puts this event well beyond our time, in fact IIRC into 3000's. I think you may be thinking of Newton tho, he calculated the last year from the Bible at some point.

As far as I recall, our buddy Michel de Nostre-Dame never actually puts an end, the quatrains end there because that's where he stopped writing them.

He also predicted, according to some other cooks a war between Belgium (of all places) and France in the 1980's...

I think I can rest My case ;)

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-07, 01:20 PM
:wall:

KaiYeves
2010-Apr-07, 09:19 PM
The annoying thing is that after 2012 the woowoos will be going on about Apophis instead.
At least that will have some basis in reality.


When I was a kid, Marvel Comics had some stories set in 3000.

Therefore, we know the world will last as least that long or else none of Stan Lee's prophecies will make any sense.
Of course, True Believer.

caramba
2010-Apr-08, 04:06 AM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I'll prophecy that the world is going to end in 2070. I've just given you an extra ten years.
No not 2070, how about August 2010 for the passing by of a brown dwarf star very close to Earth

Jens
2010-Apr-08, 08:05 AM
No not 2070, how about August 2010 for the passing by of a brown dwarf star very close to Earth

Are you thinking of a specific one?

caramba
2010-Apr-08, 08:22 AM
Are you thinking of a specific one?

yea its name is Wormwood

Fiery Phoenix
2010-Apr-08, 08:28 AM
What's with the fascination in the end of the world anyway? :eh:

And Caramba, what brown dwarf is that exactly? This is news to me.

tnjrp
2010-Apr-08, 09:44 AM
And yet more pertinently, "how does it knows that, precioussss?"

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-08, 11:14 AM
What's with the fascination in the end of the world anyway? :eh:

And Caramba, what brown dwarf is that exactly? This is news to me.

Yes I to want to know exactly?

tusenfem
2010-Apr-08, 01:45 PM
yea its name is Wormwood


Dear caramba, welcome to BAUT.
Please note that this kind of messages do not belong in the "Astronomy" section of BAUT, as clearly the existence of such a "brown dwarf" is against the mainstream. If you want to discuss "Wormwood" then please do it in the ATM section of this board.

baric
2010-Apr-08, 02:41 PM
Dear caramba, welcome to BAUT.
Please note that this kind of messages do not belong in the "Astronomy" section of BAUT, as clearly the existence of such a "brown dwarf" is against the mainstream. If you want to discuss "Wormwood" then please do it in the ATM section of this board.


sorry, red text got my attention so I googled this theory.

People are crazy. They'll believe anything.

1/3rd of the Earth should be incinerated by Wormwood this summer. Get out your lawn chairs, lather up with sunscreen, and watch the show!

tnjrp
2010-Apr-09, 05:35 AM
Hmm, that must mean that we'll have only 2/3 of the Earth left to be destroyed in 2012 and 2060...

Jens
2010-Apr-09, 05:43 AM
Hmm, that must mean that we'll have only 2/3 of the Earth left to be destroyed in 2012 and 2060...

And on the positive side also, wormwood can be used to make absinthe, which I've long been dying to try out (in moderation of course). Maybe we can get some from the brown dwarf as it zips by.

tnjrp
2010-Apr-09, 07:05 AM
We only need to snatch flowers and leaves off it tho, it doesn't need to slam into us or anything.

BTW more about absinthe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-09, 08:16 AM
The heck is wormwood? and should I be worried about it lol not that it matters just out of curiosity's sake?

Jens
2010-Apr-09, 08:27 AM
Without saying too much, let's just say it's the name of something that appears near the end of a book that was written by a bunch of Jewish priests several thousand years ago. If you live in North Carolina, chances are you've seen the book before. :)

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-09, 09:42 AM
Without saying too much, let's just say it's the name of something that appears near the end of a book that was written by a bunch of Jewish priests several thousand years ago. If you live in North Carolina, chances are you've seen the book before. :)

So wormwood isn't a brown dwarf heading or nearing towards Earth right? Just something at the end of a book written by Jewish people which I've never heard of in my life.

tnjrp
2010-Apr-09, 09:52 AM
Oh, you've heard of it allright, but Jens is being circumspect about the title as this forum generally frowns on religious topics.

As for if this specific "wormwood" is a brown dwarf, an example of the "acid tripping" by a person of dubious provenance living on Patmos sometime after the supposed death of Jesus, or something else altogether of course depends on who you ask. Apparently our newish member Caramba is of the former opinion.

Atraveller
2010-Apr-09, 12:58 PM
yea its name is Wormwood

ooops - missed we were already on page 2 and stated the obvious...

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-10, 12:31 AM
Lol.

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-11, 08:45 AM
Ok then what about the star nemeisis or how you spell it?

neilzero
2010-Apr-11, 12:41 PM
That is very typical.


Maybe that's why the world will end. Global incompetence! :lol:

It does appear that global incompetence is accelerating. Do you think we have two more "good" years? Neil

Gamefreak89
2010-Apr-13, 07:14 AM
lol.

Elukka
2010-Apr-14, 01:01 AM
The world is going to end in 2060, not 2012. I know this because this is the year my mobile phone's calendar ends.
Truly Nokia hath seen the apocalypse.

danscope
2010-Apr-14, 03:57 AM
The world is not going to end, tomorrow, next year, 2012 or 2060. There are, unfortunately all too many naieve, easily influenced ,
unsophisticated and not very well-read bozos who can't tolerate the idea of being responsible for themselves and their bills for the extended future and balance of their lives. So, their subconcious seizes on this fantasy of " The sky is falling" , and "I don't have to care because it's all over next year." It is as stupid as a person who has a car that is still serving them well, and doesn't put oil in the motor because he feels he is going to get rid of the car soon anyway. So he insures a self-fulfilling prophesy. Motor dies from lack of oil.
The regular people who participate in reality get up in the morning, make their bed, clean up and go to work, pay their bills and get on with
the real world and press on to make it a good one,.....one day at a time, the best they can. That is how you confront the bozo who says....
" We are running out of time for the world" . Plain and simple. You have to be smarter than that pile where the horse signed his name.
And don't let anyone who thinks the world is going to end in 2012 work on your car's brakes. Nuff said.

Best regards,
Dan

Dan

MarCn
2010-Apr-17, 08:56 AM
It should be self evident but I do appreciate knowing when the next doomsday we are all supposed to fear is going to be. I know 2125 will be a big one because it will be the beginning of the age of aquarius but we need something to fill the void between now and then, 2060 is a nice compromise.

Elenwen
2010-Apr-18, 01:44 PM
Link to top 10 failed predictions: http://listverse.com/2008/09/18/top-10-failed-apocalyptic-predictions/
There is plenty more where that came from. 2012 soon to join the list.

Jens
2010-Apr-19, 02:24 AM
It should be self evident but I do appreciate knowing when the next doomsday we are all supposed to fear is going to be. I know 2125 will be a big one because it will be the beginning of the age of aquarius but we need something to fill the void between now and then, 2060 is a nice compromise.

There actually isn't any accepted date for when "ages" begin. 2125 or whatever date is just an arbitrary designation. Somebody else might say the 16th century or the year 2600 (which apparently is how the IAU sees it).

tnjrp
2010-Apr-19, 06:17 AM
I'll be betting on 2020 next if 2012 turns out to be a dud... ;)

parallaxicality
2010-Apr-19, 02:13 PM
Nostradamus actually made very clear when he thought the world would end: 3797 AD. He says many times in his letters that his predictions span a future time from his own lifetime to 3797.

As for Isaac Newton, well he was a bit insane, but then so were Kepler, Tesla and Teller. Sometimes even lunatics get things right.

Wormwood is a name from the Book of Revelation. Nemesis is a red or brown dwarf star billions of miles away that might, every few million years or so, send a comet or two our way. The idea that Nemesis could some how come close to Earth ITSELF is not only lunatic but actually misinterprets the Nemesis hypothesis.

All of these things are just re-emergences of the Nibiru collision ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_collision), which was invented by a bored and somewhat delusional Wisconsin woman 15 years ago and seems to have taken on a life of its own.

baric
2010-Apr-20, 12:54 AM
Nostradamus actually made very clear when he thought the world would end: 3797 AD. He says many times in his letters that his predictions span a future time from his own lifetime to 3797.

As for Isaac Newton, well he was a bit insane, but then so were Kepler, Tesla and Teller. Sometimes even lunatics get things right.

Wormwood is a name from the Book of Revelation. Nemesis is a red or brown dwarf star billions of miles away that might, every few million years or so, send a comet or two our way. The idea that Nemesis could some how come close to Earth ITSELF is not only lunatic but actually misinterprets the Nemesis hypothesis.

All of these things are just re-emergences of the Nibiru collision ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_collision), which was invented by a bored and somewhat delusional Wisconsin woman 15 years ago and seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Nostradamus' quatrains end at 3797. He does not actually predict the end of the world.

Nemesis was a hypothetical body theorized to be responsible for periodic extinctions on Earth (from comets dislodged from the Oort cloud). Not only has no evidence of Nemesis been found, the correlation between the timing of extinctions is pretty shaky. They were basing their dating on only 12 extinction events!

There is a reasonable argument, if you are big on Revelations, that Wormwood is the Chernobyl disaster. It poisoned the waters as predicted in Revelation and, in fact, "Chernobyl" is from the Ukrainian word for "mugwort", also known as wormwood.

I'm not an expert on any of these wacky theories, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. They had an internet connection and I looked all of this up on wikipedia :P

tnjrp
2010-Apr-20, 05:25 AM
As for Isaac Newton, well he was a bit insane, but then so were Kepler, Tesla and Teller. Sometimes even lunatics get things rightSo are you suggesting Newton got the year 2060 "right"?

---


There is a reasonable argument, if you are big on Revelations, that Wormwood is the Chernobyl disaster. It poisoned the waters as predicted in RevelationObviously you also have to practise somewhat creative reading in order to ignore the bits "there fell a great star from heaven" and "the third part of the waters became wormwood".

Jens
2010-Apr-20, 05:49 AM
So are you suggesting Newton got the year 2060 "right"?


I think the suggestion was that Newton got other things right, like the stuff about the apple (or whatever) falling and that hideous branch of math that he helped develop, which I must say had a rather deleterious effect on my own school career. :)

tnjrp
2010-Apr-20, 06:10 AM
That is one possibility, but given that we've not been discussing Newton's science or math here previously, it's not necessarily the most obvious one. Hence the question.

parallaxicality
2010-Apr-20, 06:21 AM
Yes. What Jens said.

Halcyon Dayz
2010-Apr-20, 11:44 AM
Obviously you also have to practise somewhat creative reading in order to ignore the bits "there fell a great star from heaven" and "the third part of the waters became wormwood".
Chernobyl is also the wrong species of wormwood.

John speaks of Apsinthos, Chernobyl means Common Wormwood.

tnjrp
2010-Apr-20, 12:10 PM
Quite, well spotted.

Hornblower
2010-Apr-20, 12:31 PM
So are you suggesting Newton got the year 2060 "right"?

---

Obviously you also have to practise somewhat creative reading in order to ignore the bits "there fell a great star from heaven" and "the third part of the waters became wormwood".

Are you suggesting that Newton even addressed anything related to the year 2060?

tnjrp
2010-Apr-20, 12:54 PM
Actually, I am.

baric
2010-Apr-20, 03:30 PM
Obviously you also have to practise somewhat creative reading in order to ignore the bits "there fell a great star from heaven" and "the third part of the waters became wormwood".

You don't understand the first thing about conspiracy theories. There are two rules:

1) Collect and promote all evidence, no matter how insignificant, that supports your theory

2) Disregard and dismiss all evidence, no matter how significant, that does not support it


CHERNOBYL = WORMWOOD (sticks fingers in ears) LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-21, 11:24 AM
As far as I know, Nostradamus almost NEVER put a date on any of his cheesy "quatrains". One of the few exceptions was 1999 and that one didn't come off.

The doomsday prediction for 2060 is not from Nostradamus but instead, I'm sorry to say, a calculation by Sir Isaac Newton. :sad:

Newton's writings on the year 2060 are quoted at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_occult_studies#A.D._2060


A.D. 2060
In late February and early March 2003, a large amount of media attention circulated around the globe regarding largely unknown and unpublished documents, evidently written by Isaac Newton, indicating that he believed the world would end no earlier than A.D. 2060. The story garnered vast amounts of public interest and found its way onto the front page of several widely distributed newspapers including, Britain's Daily Telegraph, Canada's National Post, Israel's Maariv and Yediot Aharonot, and was also featured in an article in the scientific journal, Nature.[14] Television and Internet stories in the following weeks heightened the exposure and ultimately would include the production of several documentary films focused upon the topic of the 2060 prediction and some of Newton's less well known beliefs and practices. The juxtaposition of Newton, popularly seen by some as the embodiment of scientific rationality with a seemingly irrational prediction of the "end of the world", would invariably lend itself to cultural sensationalism.
The two documents detailing this prediction are currently housed within the Jewish National and University Library in Jerusalem.[14] Both were believed to be written toward the end of Newton's life, in or after 1705, a time frame most notably established by the use of the full title of Sir Isaac Newton within portions of the documents.
These documents do not appear to have been written with the intention of publication and Isaac Newton expressed a strong personal dislike for individuals who provided specific dates for the Apocalypse purely for sensational value. Furthermore, Newton at no time provides a specific date for the end of the world in either of these documents.[14]
To understand the reasoning behind the 2060 prediction, an understanding of Newton's theological beliefs should be taken into account, particularly his apparent antitrinitarian beliefs and his religious views on the Papacy. Both of these lay essential to his calculations, which ultimately would provide the A.D. 2060 time frame. See Isaac Newton's religious views for more details.
The first document, part of the Yahuda collection [15], is a small letter slip, on the back of which is written haphazardly in Newton's hand:

Prop. 1. The 2300 prophetick days did not commence before the rise of the little horn of the He Goat.
2 Those day [sic] did not commence a[f]ter the destruction of Jerusalem & ye Temple by the Romans A.[D.] 70.
3 The time times & half a time did not commence before the year 800 in wch the Popes supremacy commenced
4 They did not commence after the re[ig]ne of Gregory the 7th. 1084
5 The 1290 days did not commence b[e]fore the year 842.
6 They did not commence after the reigne of Pope Greg. 7th. 1084
7 The diffence [sic] between the 1290 & 1335 days are a parts of the seven weeks.
Therefore the 2300 years do not end before ye year 2132 nor after 2370. The time times & half time do n[o]t end before 2060 nor after [2344] The 1290 days do not begin [this should read: end] before 2090 nor after 1374 [sic; Newton probably means 2374][14]

The second reference to the 2060 prediction can be found in a folio[16], in which Newton writes:
“ So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a yeare & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic for “long lived”] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast.[14] ”
Clearly Newton's mathematical prediction of the end of the world is one derived from his interpretation of not only scripture, but also one based upon his theological viewpoint regarding specific chronological dates and events as he saw them.
Newton may not have been referring to the post 2060 event as a destructive act resulting in the annihilation of the globe and its inhabitants, but rather one in which he believed the world, as he saw it, was to be replaced with a new one based upon a transition to an era of divinely inspired peace. In Christian and Islamic theology this concept is often referred to as The Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the establishment of The Kingdom of God on Earth. In a separate manuscript[17], Isaac Newton paraphrases Revelation 21 and 22 and relates the post 2060 events by writing:
“ A new heaven & new earth. New Jerusalem comes down from heaven prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband. The marriage supper. God dwells with men wipes away all tears from their eyes, gives them of ye fountain of living water & creates all thin things new saying, It is done. The glory & felicity of the New Jerusalem is represented by a building of Gold & Gemms enlightened by the glory of God & ye Lamb & watered by ye river of Paradise on ye banks of wch grows the tree of life. Into this city the kings of the earth do bring their glory & that of the nations & the saints raign for ever & ever.[14]

Joe87
2010-Apr-22, 12:25 AM
The end of the world as we know it will occur in about a thousand years, give or take a few. By then, we will have run out of fossil fuel, our topsoil will all have eroded away, and the current interglacial period will be over. At that point the earth's human population will be reduced by a factor of 100 or more because of the inability to grow enough food to supply the many billions of people that will be alive then. Unless we reduce the population with nuclear wars in the meantime. Too bad we won't be around to see it.

99gecko
2010-Apr-22, 04:29 PM
LOL.

Are all of you suggesting that the world has not already ended? ;)

If members are suggesting that our collective consciousness is not merely the result of simple residual electrical impulses interacting in the remnants of the core of the Single Earth Galactic Defense Supercomputer which was destroyed in the Great Eschatological Demise of 1958, then shouldn't this thread have been moved to the ATM forum? ;)

Not trying to create a new ATM theory. I'm sure it already exists. I may have gotten the year wrong as well! ;)

baric
2010-Apr-22, 06:26 PM
LOL.

Are all of you suggesting that the world has not already ended? ;)


Reminds me of Preterism :P

Is it ATM if none of us are really taking it seriously?

marvinthemartial
2010-Apr-23, 07:37 AM
The Wormwood Science (An excerpt from The Millennium Prophecy) (http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/space/space_exploration/news.php?q=1246483298)
it stated here that Wormwood's outbound ecliptic crossing is December 21, 2012

mahesh
2010-Apr-23, 10:16 AM
I'm just wondering the Mayans said 2012 but Nostradamus said 2060 in one of his predictions can someone please clear this up for me?

Hi Gf, The Summer Olympics are being held in London in 2012.

As far as 2060 is concerned, I would hope that, we would have decided by then, to hold all Olympics in Athens, for evermore. With a different nation or group of nations, agreeing to host them there.

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-24, 11:17 AM
2012 and 2060

The claims that the years 2012 and 2060 indicate ‘The End Of The World As We Know It’ can actually be analysed in scientific astronomical terms to some extent.

TEOTWAWKI is a modern rendering of the Biblical phrase ‘the end of the age’, αίών or aion. Just as background, astronomically, the cycle of the earth that produces ‘ages’ is known as the Great Year. In the so-called Age of Pisces over the last 2000 years, the March equinox has precessed through Pisces while the September equinox has precessed through Virgo. The Great Year is about 25,765 years in duration and is caused by the spin wobble of the earth’s axis. The Great Year is a stable product of the torque of the sun and moon on the oblate spheroid shape of the earth. It causes the equinoxes and solstices to move in turn through each of the twelve 30° zodiac average constellation arcs every 2147 years.

It is sometimes claimed that ancient astronomers knew that the observed position of the sun precesses around the ecliptic by one degree of arc about every 72 years. Hipparchus estimated it at less than 100 years. At the 72 year rate, a zodiacal age of 30° has period 6 x 6 x 6 x 10 = 30 x 72 = 2160 years. In fact, the average period of the age is slightly less, at about 2147 years, or 71.6 years per degree.

For 2012, the reason why it is seen as ‘the end of the world’ is a mistaken claim that the solstice will transit the centre of the Milky Way at that time. This is an error, as the solstice transited the Milky Way centre in 1998. The equinox and solstice points move from side to side of the Milky Way each Great Year, and the time when the solstice transits the galaxy is near the midpoint between the dates when the equinoxes transit the galaxy, in about 4430 BC and 8450AD. There is no scientific dynamic basis to link the precession with the galaxy, but the relation of the ages and the galaxy has been a source of mythological speculation. For example the four creatures described in Ezekiel and Revelation, the bull, lion, eagle and man, can be seen as describing the four points of the zodiac that are closest to and furthest from the Milky Way.

As for the year 2060, there is in fact a coincidental astronomical tie-in with the astronomy of the Great Year, although one that Newton cannot have known. The gas giants Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune form their closest conjunction since 1881 in the year 2060. These triple JSN conjunction events occur in overlapping cycles with period close to 178.9 years, one twelfth of the zodiacal age period of 2147 years. A mainstream scientific argument can be made that this JSN cycle is a main regular pattern of the solar system, as it is clearly and directly reflected in the wave pattern of the solar system barycentre. Postulating a link between this regular gas giant pattern and the spin wobble period of the earth is most unlikely though, given the preponderance of the gravity of the moon and sun as the regulators of the earth’s spin wobble period.

Newton’s model of the motion of the barycentre did not include Uranus and Neptune as they had not been discovered. However the actual SSB wave pattern is very close to Newton’s prediction, with the main refinement that Jupiter and Saturn’s mutual cycles with Neptune cause a regular pattern in the barycentre every nine Jupiter-Saturn cycles, while Uranus causes a smaller effect.

In the mythology of the Age of Pisces, the common theory that it began at the BC/AD point gives an end date, just based on one twelfth of the spin wobble, of the year 2147. 2060 is the last gas giant triple conjunction before then. A wider JSN conjunction happens next decade, from 2020 to 2026. No causal mechanism has been shown to link these astronomical cycles with anything on the earth, apart from the simple observation that the Great Year is itself purely a product of the regular pattern of motion of the earth. However, the link between Mayan prophecy and Biblical Revelation has proven an imaginative cocktail.

Jens
2010-Apr-26, 05:31 AM
I may have gotten the year wrong as well! ;)

No, I think you are correct, that that was the year when the eschaton was immanentized, if that is the proper way to put it.

Tenshu
2010-Apr-26, 08:04 AM
so what your saying Robert is that 2012 is false, but then anytime after 2020 (possibly 2060) we're potentially dead?

Lovely, my depression level keeps getting higher.--; at this rate it will be a miracle if i even make it to 2012 let alone through the year...

Jens
2010-Apr-26, 08:18 AM
so what your saying Robert is that 2012 is false, but then anytime after 2020 (possibly 2060) we're potentially dead?


I don't think Robert is saying anything of the sort. Though yes, many of us will be dead by 2060, and I venture to guess that virtually all of us here will be dead by 2100.

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-26, 02:38 PM
so what your saying Robert is that 2012 is false, but then anytime after 2020 (possibly 2060) we're potentially dead?

Lovely, my depression level keeps getting higher.--; at this rate it will be a miracle if i even make it to 2012 let alone through the year...

No Tenshu, I hope human life will continue past any hurdles this century may throw at us. Humans and our ancestors have lived on this planet for millions of years, and the shift of the equinox from Pisces to Aquarius need not bring a cataclysm.

The 2012 alignment, which is really a generational event centered on 1998, is of interest astronomically. The zodiac meets the Milky Way between the constellations Taurus and Gemini in the north, and between Scorpius and Sagittarius in the south. When the solstice point is travelling past the center of the Milky Way, as now, the other solstice is pointed opposite the center of the galaxy, and the equinoxes, now in Pisces and Virgo, are at the points on the ecliptic most distant from the Milky Way from our view. Over the next two thousand years the equinox points will move through Aquarius and Leo while the solstice points move through Taurus and Scorpius. In six thousand years the equinoxes will line up with the Milky Way. This is a 26,000 year cycle that has been pretty much permanent since life began on the earth. What goes around comes around; the eternal return of the same.


I don't think Robert is saying anything of the sort. Though yes, many of us will be dead by 2060, and I venture to guess that virtually all of us here will be dead by 2100.
I hope to see 2060, when I will turn 97. :)

Tenshu
2010-Apr-26, 02:44 PM
So we should have nothing to worry about then? I'm sorry if i misinterpreted your previous statement, it's another reason why my fragile mind doesn't belong here--;

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-26, 02:52 PM
I'm not sure how the astronomy relates to having nothing to worry about. People have got plenty to worry about without imagining an apocalypse around the corner.

Just to add, here is a picture of the path of precession against the stars (http://www.bautforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11909&d=1269720978), with the zodiac set as the X axis and the celestial equator forming a sine wave around it. Earth completes this cycle every 26,000 years.

Tenshu
2010-Apr-26, 03:01 PM
^so what is it you believe then? do you believe something bad will happen to us in the future or not, that is space related? i know people have other things to worry about in life, but right now this is my biggest concern. Wether or not something will happen to us space related in the future.

THETULLSTER
2010-Apr-26, 03:15 PM
So if the Mayans said nothing, then how did everyone come to the conclusion that they did, what is everyone so confused about?

danscope
2010-Apr-26, 03:58 PM
The guy chiping the stone to make the calendar just ran out of stone, so it ended there. :)

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-26, 04:23 PM
^so what is it you believe then? do you believe something bad will happen to us in the future or not, that is space related? i know people have other things to worry about in life, but right now this is my biggest concern. Wether or not something will happen to us space related in the future.Tenshu, I do not believe that something bad will happen to us that is space related. A big comet or meteor strike would be bad, but they are rare, and unlikely to happen for millions of years. I am more concerned about the real damage to the environment of the earth.

R.A.F.
2010-Apr-26, 04:24 PM
The claims that the years 2012 and 2060 indicate ‘The End Of The World As We Know It’ can actually be analysed in scientific astronomical terms to some extent.

"To some extent"?, oh, you mean as in not at all unless one delves into mythology??

Why is this thread even in the astronomy section of this forum? Seems to me that any speculation concerning the "end of the world" would be better suited in the ATM or BABBling sections of the board.

Then, again, I'm a "stickler" for having everything in it's proper "place". :)

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-26, 10:56 PM
"To some extent"?, oh, you mean as in not at all unless one delves into mythology??

Why is this thread even in the astronomy section of this forum? Seems to me that any speculation concerning the "end of the world" would be better suited in the ATM or BABBling sections of the board.

Then, again, I'm a "stickler" for having everything in it's proper "place". :)There is no need to delve into mythology. The astronomical cycle of the precession of the equinox provides a framework against which these claims can be read. My comments were directed to scientific explanation of precession. Concepts such as 'end of the age' obviously have a mythological content, but this thread is about the scientific content.

R.A.F.
2010-Apr-27, 01:18 AM
Concepts such as 'end of the age' obviously have a mythological content, but this thread is about the scientific content.

If you read the OP, you will see...


...the Mayans said 2012 but Nostradamus said 2060 in one of his predictions...

Obviously we are talking about mythology.


The astronomical cycle of the precession of the equinox provides a framework against which these claims can be read.

Huh???? There is no scientific "significance" to procession.


My comments were directed to scientific explanation of precession.

What "explanation" is necessary?? There is no significance to procession...it is a very natural result of the tilt of the Earth...

I repeat...why is this thread in the astronomy section of this forum?

ToSeek
2010-Apr-27, 01:33 AM
Moved from "Astronomy" to "Off-Topic Babbling" since it's not a scientific discussion.

Jens
2010-Apr-27, 02:58 AM
I hope to see 2060, when I will turn 97. :)

So do I, though I'll be a sprightly . . . 96!

Jens
2010-Apr-27, 03:02 AM
Whether or not something will happen to us space related in the future.

Like Robert said, there are lots of things to worry about. Cancer and heart problems should be high on your list. But space related events are not an issue, really. They're rare enough to ignore (well, preparing for an asteroid strike makes sense, but not much else), and by contrast, doing things like driving safely and eating healthily can really extend your lifespan. Simple things like getting exercise is a much, much more fruitful thing to do than to lay awake at night worrying about some potential catastrophe.

Tenshu
2010-Apr-27, 05:38 AM
Like Robert said, there are lots of things to worry about. Cancer and heart problems should be high on your list. But space related events are not an issue, really. They're rare enough to ignore (well, preparing for an asteroid strike makes sense, but not much else), and by contrast, doing things like driving safely and eating healthily can really extend your lifespan. Simple things like getting exercise is a much, much more fruitful thing to do than to lay awake at night worrying about some potential catastrophe.

it's really hard for me though to let it go.

I may have brought this up before but i have Aspergers syndrome and i can't let go of big things that make me worry so easily.

I used to love astronomy when i was in school but now it brings me pain and fear.

Jens
2010-Apr-27, 06:02 AM
I used to love astronomy when i was in school but now it brings me pain and fear.

Well you're not alone in those things. I used to love airplanes when I was a kid, but now it freaks me out to fly. I think I thought about it too much or something. Actually, though, worrying about things is a completely natural thing. Humans and other animals can survive because we worry. That's why I think that rather than just trying to stop worrying about it, putting energy into worrying about things that you can control is a more positive solution. Enough pop psychology I suppose. :)

Strange
2010-Apr-27, 08:58 AM
"To some extent"?, oh, you mean as in not at all unless one delves into mythology??

Why is this thread even in the astronomy section of this forum? Seems to me that any speculation concerning the "end of the world" would be better suited in the ATM or BABBling sections of the board.

I think you are being unfair: Robert said "the claims" can be analyzed ... He was not trying to justify any end of the world scenario but simply to explain what it was that people were linking it to (often erroneously, as he pointed out). He was not supporting the claims, themselves, so I don't see why it would belong in ATM.

ETA: And, "to some extent" because they can also be anaylzed in terms of human psychology, "internet memes", etc.


What "explanation" is necessary?? There is no significance to procession...it is a very natural result of the tilt of the Earth...

Again, I didn't think he was making any claims for significance of the precession; simply explaining what it was.

Strange
2010-Apr-27, 09:02 AM
it's really hard for me though to let it go.

I may have brought this up before but i have Aspergers syndrome and i can't let go of big things that make me worry so easily.

Perhaps the thing to do is to understand that this is not a "big thing". Sure, people are talking about "the end of the world" (which, I guess, would count as "big") but all of these claims are based on misunderstandings, false information and made-up facts. There is, ultimately, no basis to any of these things. So you can move on to worrying about something that might really happen (which might make it even more scary) but which, as Jens points out, you have the chance to do something about.

Strange
2010-Apr-27, 09:26 AM
So if the Mayans said nothing, then how did everyone come to the conclusion that they did, what is everyone so confused about?

Because some people make stuff up in order to make money from the gullible and the ignorant (who then help by spreading the disinformation).

Jens
2010-Apr-27, 10:08 AM
Because some people make stuff up in order to make money from the gullible and the ignorant (who then help by spreading the disinformation).

Well that's part of it, but not the whole thing. I don't think it's simply a question of commercial interest. I think some of the people who make the stuff up are actually gullible themselves. They want to feel like something catastrophic is happening. I think there's a sort of desire among people to feel that we are part of something important, significant, whatever. So millennialism has that root also.

Strange
2010-Apr-27, 10:25 AM
Well that's part of it, but not the whole thing. I don't think it's simply a question of commercial interest. I think some of the people who make the stuff up are actually gullible themselves. They want to feel like something catastrophic is happening. I think there's a sort of desire among people to feel that we are part of something important, significant, whatever. So millennialism has that root also.

Very true. I'm sure one could do an entire PhD on the psychological and sociological causes of these sort of things. In fact, I expect people have...

rommel543
2010-Apr-27, 03:07 PM
The Wormwood Science (An excerpt from The Millennium Prophecy) (http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/space/space_exploration/news.php?q=1246483298)
it stated here that Wormwood's outbound ecliptic crossing is December 21, 2012

By the images on that site the brown dwarf "Wormwood" is already in the orbit of Jupiter sine 2009. I would think we would notice something the size of or bigger than Jupiter wandering through the inner planets.


So if the Mayans said nothing, then how did everyone come to the conclusion that they did, what is everyone so confused about?

The Mayan calendar system was perpetual, meaning it continually rolled over from one year to the next, much like the Chinese Calendar. The Mayans had yearly and monthly calendars to mark special events (when to plant crops, when certain fish were around to catch, when to gather crops, star rotation, solar placements, etc). They also had their long count calendar (base-20) that counted of time over millennium. All that happens on Dec 21, 2012 is that the Long Count Calendar rolls over to the next cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar

**My Bold**


According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the K'iche' Maya of the Colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fourth world. The Popol Vuh describes the first three creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fourth world where men were placed. In the Maya Long Count, the previous creation ended at the start of a 14th b'ak'tun.

The previous creation ended on a long count of 12.19.19.17.19. Another 12.19.19.17.19 will occur on December 20, 2012, followed by the start of the fourteenth b'ak'tun, 13.0.0.0.0, on December 21, 2012.

....

Despite the publicity generated by the 2012 date, Susan Milbrath, curator of Latin American Art and Archaeology at the Florida Museum of Natural History, stated that "We have no record or knowledge that [the Maya] would think the world would come to an end" in 2012. "For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Florida. To render December 21, 2012, as a doomsday event or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in." "There will be another cycle," says E. Wyllys Andrews V, director of the Tulane University Middle American Research Institute (MARI). "We know the Maya thought there was one before this, and that implies they were comfortable with the idea of another one after this."

kleindoofy
2010-Apr-27, 07:39 PM
... The 2012 alignment, which is really a generational event centered on 1998, is of interest astronomically. ...
Why?


... The zodiac meets the Milky Way between the constellations Taurus and Gemini in the north, and between Scorpius and Sagittarius in the south. When the solstice point is travelling past the center of the Milky Way, as now, the other solstice is pointed opposite the center of the galaxy, and the equinoxes, now in Pisces and Virgo, are at the points on the ecliptic most distant from the Milky Way from our view. ...
You speak of the zodiac as if it where something that really exists. It's only a bunch of stars which we on Earth see as building patterns. Move out a light year or two and look again. No zodiac.

All the positions you mentioned are arbitrary and have no meaning at all. They're nice statistics and coincidental positions and apply only to the Earth.

Baseball is full of cool statistics and the vapor in clouds can assume the shape of a bunny rabbit.

So what?

mugaliens
2010-Apr-28, 01:01 AM
Oh, joy.

Yet another apocalyptic date. Perhaps their neverended failure and later reincarnations are intended to wear us down so much we simply cave, as some sort of self-fullfilling prophecy.

Someone mentioned the world has already come to an end. That's correct - I'm merely a brain in a jar, one of 1,000 left after the entire destruction of our planet. We're in the Matrix, but it was programmed by aliens.

Oh, joy. Yet another apocalyptic date...

Robert Tulip
2010-Apr-30, 12:38 PM
Why [is the 2012 alignment of interest astronomically?]
The '2012 alignment' between the solstice and the galactic core (which actually occurred in 1998) is a function of the spin wobble of the earth. Over the 25,765 year period of the spin wobble, the December solstice moves around the zodiac, meeting the Milky Way twice, in Gemini 12,880 years ago and in Sagittarius now.

You speak of the zodiac as if it were something that really exists. It's only a bunch of stars which we on Earth see as building patterns. Move out a light year or two and look again. No zodiac. All the positions you mentioned are arbitrary and have no meaning at all. They're nice statistics and coincidental positions and apply only to the Earth. Baseball is full of cool statistics and the vapor in clouds can assume the shape of a bunny rabbit. So what?
The zodiac is the sun-earth vector. The stars which happen to fall on this vector are mapped as the ecliptic. They are convenient markers without dynamic relation to the earth except as part of larger galactic patterns, and are effectively constant over millions of years except for proper motion. By contrast the stars on the celestial equator change constantly over a band of 47 degrees, double the earth's tilt. The precession of the equinox around the zodiac marks the shift of the annual cycle of the seasons against the stars, and is of interest astronomically, including the current position of the seasons vis-a-vis the Milky Way, to map the spin wobble of the earth.

Swift
2010-Jun-16, 01:34 PM
2012, referring to the date Humans, (present / past) created.

The 2012 idea comes about, through a habit of thought process each generation and major civilizations has/have/had.
Hi TFOSrevelation, welcome to BAUT.

Sorry, but I have no idea what your post means.

danscope
2010-Jun-17, 10:44 AM
Don't believe what you read in " The Sun" or "The Weekly World News" . They are published and written by people who think the world will
expire in 2012 . Really .

Swift
2010-Jun-17, 01:24 PM
Don't believe what you read in " The Sun" or "The Weekly World News" . They are published and written by people who think the world will expire in 2012 . Really .
Does that mean they won't sell you a subscription that runs through 2013? :D

swampyankee
2010-Jun-17, 03:17 PM
Does that mean they won't sell you a subscription that runs through 2013? :D

What better thing to sell than something that you know you won't have to deliver?

Back vaguely on topic, there has always been various groups who have claimed that the World will end at some date within the current generation's lifespan. Since I've a very Western (or, more descriptively, Judaeo-Christian) perspective, I have no idea whether such expectations of a soon-to-be-realized apocalypse are common among other groups.

In any case, I would say the Mayans already had their apocalypse, with the end of their classical era in about AD900. Most of the other Native American cultures had theirs a few years later, with the arrival of the Spanish and other Europeans. Most peoples' mythologies seem to conflate "world" and "our culture," so apocalypses are fairly common. They also tend to be rather manmade events.

Swift
2010-Jun-17, 03:22 PM
Back vaguely on topic, there has always been various groups who have claimed that the World will end at some date within the current generation's lifespan.
Kay: Did he say anything to you?
James Edwards: Yeah, that the world is coming to an end.
Kay: Did he say when?

jrkeller
2010-Jun-17, 04:06 PM
I'm going with 2060. I'll be 99 so if it happens I'll have lived a long and good life.

Jens
2010-Jun-18, 02:00 AM
I'm going with 2060. I'll be 99 so if it happens I'll have lived a long and good life.

Well I'll be 96, so if we make it let's sneak a bottle of whiskey into the nursing home the night before and have a celebration!

Spoons
2010-Jun-18, 06:37 AM
I'll be 80 at that point - still strong enough to carry the weight of half a dozen bottles of scotch strapped to my torso. Count me in!

swampyankee
2010-Jun-18, 01:42 PM
Well I'll be 96, so if we make it let's sneak a bottle of whiskey into the nursing home the night before and have a celebration!

I'll be 107. Please start me an iv.

mugaliens
2010-Jun-18, 03:27 PM
Make that 97 for me. I'll bring my running shoes (http://abcnews.go.com/international/story?id=4385601&page=1)... :)

KaiYeves
2010-Jun-18, 04:44 PM
No way, I have to live to at least 2061 so I can see Comet Halley come back.

danscope
2010-Jun-18, 08:54 PM
I'll be looking like the ancient milkman in the Monty Python Skit !!!!! " Some of us .....have been here....a...long...........time........" thud....