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wd40
2010-May-20, 09:10 AM
Homo Sapiens seems to be the only creature that cannot get to sleep without head support. And even in a warm environment, a man is not going to last long without a fire nearby, some bedding, a cover of some sort, or some kind of shelter.

Just how did modern-type humans manage to get restful sleep over the last 250,000 years without huts, cushions, matresses, fire, pyjamas, sheets etc, and exactly when did these requirement arise in the hominid timescale?

LINK (http://neckpainsupport.typepad.com/.a/6a010534db265a970c011570693eee970b-800wi)

clop
2010-May-20, 09:21 AM
Do apes need head support when they sleep?

clop

wd40
2010-May-20, 09:29 AM
Could you sleep every night like this for years?

Gorilla image (http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/gorilla-nests-2.jpg)

An ape has a neck as thick as its head. The human neck is much thinner and needs support to prevent debilitating neck strain and even injury when sleeping prone

Spine image (http://boneandspine.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/cervical_spine.jpg)

When and why did this occur?

captain swoop
2010-May-20, 09:39 AM
How about using furs or skins as covers? Iff you were living in a tropical location you wouldn't even need a cover. How about a bundle of furs or a wooden block as a pillow?
traditional Japanese sleeping arrangements include a wooden block as a pillow see here (http://www.japan-101.com/photos/showimage.php?i=52862)

SolusLupus
2010-May-20, 09:48 AM
How about using furs or skins as covers? Iff you were living in a tropical location you wouldn't even need a cover. How about a bundle of furs or a wooden block as a pillow?
traditional Japanese sleeping arrangements include a wooden block as a pillow see here (http://www.japan-101.com/photos/showimage.php?i=52862)

Of course, I would like to point out that for much of human evolution, humans were scavengers and not hunters. Wouldn't some of the few pre-Homo Sapien species have similar problems, too, even if not necessarily as potent?

wd40
2010-May-20, 09:54 AM
Also in a tropical location, without a cover, a shelter or some repellent, you're going to be bitten to pieces, maybe even literally to death, let alone sores, rashes and infections. How did they survive? We are talking about 250,000 years-ago Homo Sapiens, with exactly the same intelligence, hairlessness and physical frailty as ourselves.

Van Rijn
2010-May-20, 10:02 AM
Also in a tropical location, without a cover, a shelter or some repellent, you're going to be bitten to pieces, maybe even literally to death, let alone sores, rashes and infections. How did they survive?


Pretty much the same as today, at least for the folks that don't have the money for bug spray and bug nets.

Or like many animal species that live in the same areas.

G O R T
2010-May-20, 10:12 AM
Homo Sapiens seems to be the only creature that cannot get to sleep without head support. And even in a warm environment, a man is not going to last long without a fire nearby, some bedding, a cover of some sort, or some kind of shelter.

Just how did modern-type humans manage to get restful sleep over the last 250,000 years without huts, cushions, matresses, fire, pyjamas, sheets etc, and exactly when did these requirement arise in the hominid timescale?

LINK (http://neckpainsupport.typepad.com/.a/6a010534db265a970c011570693eee970b-800wi)

Obviously this reasoning seems good to you but really, people still do manage to sleep with absolutely no modern convenience and a few hundred years ago many, many, many people did so.
Your point about neck support indicates that you do not sleep outside much, I always felt good after sleeping outside albeit in a tent, but without pillows and such and only a thin sleeping bag.

Many cultures wove palm leaves and similar plant matter for covering even before the weaving of cloth.

Reminds me of arguing with my mom about toddlers and the need for arch and ankle support. Says I, "did all Romans have flat feet and bad ankles?"

grant hutchison
2010-May-20, 11:54 AM
Just how did modern-type humans manage to get restful sleep over the last 250,000 years without huts, cushions, matresses, fire, pyjamas, sheets etc, and exactly when did these requirement arise in the hominid timescale?They've never arisen as requirements.
Sleeping on the ground is easy, with a little preparation.

Strange
2010-May-20, 12:22 PM
Just how did modern-type humans manage to get restful sleep over the last 250,000 years without huts, cushions, matresses, fire, pyjamas, sheets etc, and exactly when did these requirement arise in the hominid timescale?

There are plenty of "modern-type" humans around the world today who don't have all these things.

Boratssister
2010-May-20, 12:33 PM
I think they may have rested their heads on their arms.

wd40
2010-May-20, 12:40 PM
A naked, uncovered homo sapiens, sleeping exposed on the ground, can't survive for long in nights where the temperature goes below 12 decrees C.

Were the first humans homo sapiens limited by this alone to central Africa only?

captain swoop
2010-May-20, 01:38 PM
People living in the jungles of the Amazon sleep naked, they live naked. Why would they have to sleep on the ground? If the temp is only 12 degrees C then a covering and dshelter can be fashioned in very little time. For sleeping a Hammock or simple nest or platform isn't too hard to build, branches and turf can make walls and a roof in no time along with skins and furs, any fool can be uncomfortable. as you point out yourself, they had the same intelligence as us.

Strange
2010-May-20, 01:40 PM
I don't think it took long for hunters to realize they could use skins and furs to keep warm. (It can get cold at night even in the tropics.) And not much longer (in relative terms) for them to start weaving animal and plant fibers.

korjik
2010-May-20, 02:34 PM
Did anyone think of the fact that one of the handiest sources of heat, shelter and neck support may be another Homo Sapiens? Get an area that is a bit enclosed, get a little ground cover, and a bunch of friends and family, and you could prolly make things survivable, if not comfortable.

Swift
2010-May-20, 02:42 PM
Please note - Rule 8 of the Forum Rules (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/32864-Rules-For-Posting-To-This-Board) strongly discourages imbedding images, because of a variety of issues: host (of the image) bandwidth, members with dial-up connections, possible copyright issues. Please use links instead of imbedded images when possible.

wd40
2010-May-20, 02:59 PM
any fool can be uncomfortable. as you point out yourself, they had the same intelligence as us.

Is it known with certainty who was the immediate direct precursor to Homo Sapiens and what were his skills and intelligence?

Argos
2010-May-20, 02:59 PM
Also in a tropical location, without a cover, a shelter or some repellent, you're going to be bitten to pieces, maybe even literally to death, let alone sores, rashes and infections.

And rain. :)

BigDon
2010-May-20, 03:10 PM
Of course, I would like to point out that for much of human evolution, humans were scavengers and not hunters.

I'm sure you would.

I would like to point out the only vertibrates that are exclusive scavengers are avian, due to the more energy efficient means of going from point A to point B.

A little rambly because they upgraded my drugs yesterday.

A bunch of you really need to bone up on your anthropology.

Plenty of extant peoples, notable among them certain tribes of Tuareg, sleep propped up on one elbow to keep arthopods of the order Solpugidae out of their noses, hair and ears.

and somebody more knowledgeble tell WD40 about the Dutch and their sleeping arrangments back in the 17 through 18 hundreds?

People here (the Ohlone) slept naked all the time. Their textile skills sucked. Best they could come up with was cattail aprons, and were used esentially as aprons, not warmth or modesty.

People of Tierra del Fuego sleep naked in the snow. I've seen the old movies...in anthropology.

wd40
2010-May-20, 03:20 PM
Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2f_-YyleOE but it does seem than unlike other animals, homo sapiens has no inborn instincts, is weak, hairless, defenceless, requires suckling for a year, mothering for 10 years, needs clothing, shelter, a cooked diet, tools to survive, social and intellectual stimulation etc, and all these needs had to be supplied straight away i.e. is there really some kind of mystery about his origins, not in line with a gradual, painful development over 250 millennia?

LotusExcelle
2010-May-20, 03:42 PM
Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2f_-YyleOE but it does seem than unlike other animals, homo sapiens has no inborn instincts, is weak, hairless, defenceless, requires suckling for a year, mothering for 10 years, needs clothing, shelter, a cooked diet, tools to survive, social and intellectual stimulation etc, and all these needs had to be supplied straight away i.e. is there really some kind of mystery about his origins, not in line with a gradual, painful development over 250 millennia?

We do not need clothing to survive. We also do not require shelter or cooked food. These are conveniences. As human origin is believed to be based in Africa (last I knew) the climate there does not generally require winter gear. We CAN live purely on uncooked food. Many animals need social stimulation - and intellectual stimulation can come in a variety of forms.

Strange
2010-May-20, 03:48 PM
Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2f_-YyleOE but it does seem than unlike other animals, homo sapiens has no inborn instincts, is weak, hairless, defenceless, requires suckling for a year, mothering for 10 years, needs clothing, shelter, a cooked diet, tools to survive, social and intellectual stimulation etc, and all these needs had to be supplied straight away i.e. is there really some kind of mystery about his origins, not in line with a gradual, painful development over 250 millennia?

I'm not sure we "need" most of these. Plenty of people do without several of them.

But it is not like "man" woke up one day with all these problems. These characteristics developed over time. Along with things like language, complex society, tools, hunting, agriculture, ... all of which contributed to human's ability to survive in a range of environments.

Strange
2010-May-20, 03:56 PM
Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man"

Maybe...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/momevol.html

[Mysterious Origins of Man]'s treatment of the evidence for human evolution consists of a dubious interpretation of Lucy, and outright falsehoods about Java Man. The rest of the abundant evidence has been ignored.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/mom-review.html

This entire production was an absolute travesty; it attacked reason and knowledge with outrageous lies and distortions. The show's producers aim was to disseminate falsehood without the responsibility of having to defend it; that is why the script continually uses phrases like "compelling evidence suggests to some."

More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom.html

BigDon
2010-May-20, 03:57 PM
Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2f_-YyleOE but it does seem than unlike other animals, homo sapiens has no inborn instincts, is weak, hairless, defenceless, requires suckling for a year, mothering for 10 years, needs clothing, shelter, a cooked diet, tools to survive, social and intellectual stimulation etc, and all these needs have to be supplied straight away i.e. is there really some kind of mystery about his origins, not in line with a gradual, painful development over 250 millennia?

You listen to the wrong people dude. Honestly. Somebody was trying to sell you something, no?

Take a cynic for instance. He'll take a small piece of a greater whole and point out all the weaknesses. The above is using children to represent the entire human race.

And we have plenty of instincts.

And the above is also taking important "nice to haves" cooking, social and intellectual stimulation and making it sound like weaknesses.

Those are our strengths!

Cooking broadens the amount of things we can eat! Tremendously even.

Our young are helpless for a long time, there are lot of them, yet nothing macroscopic preys on that much loose protien with any regularity. Why? Social interactions and intellectual stimulation.

Hmmm, that pack of feral dogs just ate a kid from the neighboring clan.

Hey! That sucks! I know them! And I have kids! Let's get a bunch of the guys together and wipe the feral dogs out!

Can't catch'em, they run too fast and in different directions

Well, let's think this out...

See? Social interaction AND intelectual stimulation were often hand in hand with not letting your helpless children get eaten.

Somebody is just being a hater and a dragger downer. Pointing out psuedo-mysteries to people

Argos
2010-May-20, 04:10 PM
People of Tierra del Fuego sleep naked in the snow. I've seen the old movies...in anthropology.

Iīm affraid thatīs incorrect, Big Don. Actually that would be pretty impossible, given the conditions there. There used to be various tribes and cultures (http://www.adventure-life.com/articles/patagonia-culture-92) in Tierra del Fuego, but reports of their living 'naked' are most certainly exaggerated. The link gives an acceptable description .

From the link:

[i]Ona garments consisted of heavy furs and leather shoes for snow travel.

BigDon
2010-May-20, 04:15 PM
Iīm affraid thatīs incorrect, Big Don. Actually that would be pretty impossible, given the conditions there. There used to be various tribes and cultures (http://www.adventure-life.com/articles/patagonia-culture-92) in Tierra del Fuego, but reports of their living 'naked' are most certainly exaggerated. The link gives an acceptable description .

From the link:

[i]Ona garments consisted of heavy furs and leather shoes for snow travel.

Thanks Argos.

wd40
2010-May-20, 04:40 PM
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/mom-review.html

This entire production was an absolute travesty; it attacked reason and knowledge with outrageous lies and distortions. The show's producers aim was to disseminate falsehood without the responsibility of having to defend it; that is why the script continually uses phrases like "compelling evidence suggests to some."

Maybe even more contemptible, in the eyes of some, than the Young Earth Creationists, are the 'Evolutionary' Creationists & those who attribute Extra Terrestrial or Non-Extra Terrestrial "Aliens" to man's origin?!



"The only fight worth fighting today is the fight against the Young Earth Creationists!" (Arthur C.Clarke RIP)

korjik
2010-May-20, 05:24 PM
Is it known with certainty who was the immediate direct precursor to Homo Sapiens and what were his skills and intelligence?

Homo Erectus. Pointy stick and fire IIRC. Considering that Erectus colonised the whole Old World, probably clothing too. May not make them top of the food chain, but at least you can debate the point with some vigor.

Gillianren
2010-May-20, 05:28 PM
You know, I'm quite sure the challenges of survival are pretty intellectually stimulating. I'm also quite sure I wouldn't rely on Charlton Heston to teach science or history. (Wouldn't have, now.)

novaderrik
2010-May-20, 05:50 PM
You know, I'm quite sure the challenges of survival are pretty intellectually stimulating. I'm also quite sure I wouldn't rely on Charlton Heston to teach science or history. (Wouldn't have, now.)

but he was Moses in that one movie.
if you can't trust Moses, who can you trust?

SolusLupus
2010-May-20, 06:26 PM
I'm sure you would.

I would like to point out the only vertibrates that are exclusive scavengers are avian, due to the more energy efficient means of going from point A to point B.

A little rambly because they upgraded my drugs yesterday.

There's only so many things you can hunt and kill with the knappers they had, before our ancestors developed stone arrows, spears, etc. Before that, stone tools were (for a very very long time) mostly just used to cut up and skin game that was found. The "hand axe" used in the Acheulean period was not an efficient hunting weapon.

Remember, I was responding to someone that said that our ancestors relied quite a bit on hides and the like, and I intended to point out that finding a suitable hide wasn't a given for a long time.

And your comment, "I'm sure you would." -- What's that supposed to mean, exactly?

BigDon
2010-May-20, 06:35 PM
What's that supposed to mean, exactly?

What exactly, did I say?

grant hutchison
2010-May-20, 06:37 PM
There used to be various tribes and cultures (http://www.adventure-life.com/articles/patagonia-culture-92) in Tierra del Fuego, but reports of their living 'naked' are most certainly exaggerated.Here's Darwin's report, in Voyage of the Beagle:
Their only garment consists of a mantle of guanaco skin, with the wool outside; this they wear just thrown over their shoulders, as often leaving their persons exposed as covered.
...
The Fuegian wigwam resembles, in size and dimensions, a haycock. It merely consists of a few broken branches stuck in the ground, and very imperfectly thatched on one side with a few tufts of grass and rushes. The whole cannot be so much as the work of an hour, and it is only used for a few days. At Goeree Roads I saw a place where one of these naked men had slept, which absolutely offered no more cover than the form of a hare.
...
At a subsequent period the Beagle anchored for a couple of days under Wollaston Island, which is a short way to the northward. While going on shore we pulled alongside a canoe with six Fuegians. These were the most abject and miserable creatures I have any where beheld. On the east coast the natives, as we have seen, have guanaco cloaks, and on the west, they possess seal-skins. Amongst these central tribes the men generally possess an otter-skin, or some small scrap about as large as a pocket-handkerchief, which is barely sufficient to cover their backs as low down as their loins. It is laced across the breast by strings, and according as the wind blows, it is shifted from side to side. But these Fuegians in the canoe were quite naked, and even one full-grown woman was absolutely so. It was raining heavily, and the fresh water, together with the spray, trickled down her body. In another harbour not far distant, a woman, who was suckling a recently-born child, came one day alongside the vessel, and remained there whilst the sleet fell and thawed on her naked bosom, and on the skin of her naked child.
(And I can personally testify to the unusually demoralizing nature of Fuegan sleet, even when one is wrapped in wool and Goretex from head to foot.)

Grant Hutchison

Fazor
2010-May-20, 07:13 PM
I'm reading through the journal notes from his time on the Beagle currently, but haven't made it to that part yet. Thanks for the spoiler warning! (j/k).

I can sleep fine on the ground without any head support (other than my arm). And I can attest to the fact that my dog often (but not always) enjoys some level of head support when she sleeps; be it a pillow, her paw, or me. The other night she was at such an awkward angle that I swore her neck would snap, but she just had to lay with her head propped up on my leg.

I think humans are more versatile than you're giving us credit for in the OP. Hell, if nothing else, one could sleep sitting up against a rock or a tree or something.

SolusLupus
2010-May-20, 07:18 PM
What exactly, did I say?

I quoted exactly what I was talking about. The very first line of your post in response to me.

SolusLupus
2010-May-20, 07:21 PM
I'm reading through the journal notes from his time on the Beagle currently, but haven't made it to that part yet. Thanks for the spoiler warning! (j/k).

I can sleep fine on the ground without any head support (other than my arm). And I can attest to the fact that my dog often (but not always) enjoys some level of head support when she sleeps; be it a pillow, her paw, or me. The other night she was at such an awkward angle that I swore her neck would snap, but she just had to lay with her head propped up on my leg.

I think humans are more versatile than you're giving us credit for in the OP. Hell, if nothing else, one could sleep sitting up against a rock or a tree or something.

People in the army tend to learn to sleep in all sorts of less than comfortable positions. It's something we have to retrain ourselves to do because we're "pampered" (relatively) from birth, but the ability is still there.

Still, questions of "How did they...?" are good, as they remind us that our ancestors aren't some alien species, but are just us without the comfortable amenities.

Argos
2010-May-20, 08:19 PM
Here's Darwin's report, in Voyage of the Beagle:
(And I can personally testify to the unusually demoralizing nature of Fuegan sleet, even when one is wrapped in wool and Goretex from head to foot.)

Grant Hutchison

Well, Darwin stayed there during summer, so itīs quite possible that he has seen natives [in the excerpt above it is not specified which tribe heīs referring to] wearing minimal clothes [or even naked]. But Darwin got many things wrong about the habits of the people he saw in that journey [he made a stop in Brazil too, and said things that are not the full expression of the truth]. So Iīm not sure if his observations are totally trustworthy - biased at best. Anyways, Iīm pretty sure it is not possible to survive the sub-Antarctic Fuegan winter without proper clothes.

captain swoop
2010-May-20, 08:29 PM
Soluslupus If you have a problem with the contents of someones post then report it. Do not start a discussion in the thread

Geo Kaplan
2010-May-20, 08:35 PM
but he was Moses in that one movie.
if you can't trust Moses, who can you trust?

Well, as has been observed before, he did lead his people to about the only part of the Middle East without oil...

grant hutchison
2010-May-20, 08:41 PM
Well, Darwin stayed there during summer, so itīs quite possible that he has seen natives [in the excerpt above it is not specified which tribe heīs referring to] wearing minimal clothes. But Darwin got many things wrong about the habits of the people he saw in that journey [he made a stop in Brazil too, and said things that are not the full expression of the truth]. So Iīm not sure if his observations are totally trustworthy - biased at best. Anyways, Iīm pretty sure it is not possible to survive the Fuegan winter without proper clothes.
Yes, Darwin's observations were made in December and January. It's difficult to imagine that he entirely made up the small cloaks and the nakedness: there seems to be rather a lot of detail, including much I didn't quote.
I offered the exerpts partly to give some background to BigDon's report, but mainly to show that (contrary to the OP's supposition) people can sleep on the ground with minimal shelter and go around naked in inclement weather, without dropping down dead immediately.

Grant Hutchison

BigDon
2010-May-20, 08:53 PM
It's just miserable without a thermarest.

DrRocket
2010-May-20, 08:56 PM
Yes, Darwin's observations were made in December and January. It's difficult to imagine that he entirely made up the small cloaks and the nakedness: there seems to be rather a lot of detail, including much I didn't quote.
I offered the exerpts partly to give some background to BigDon's report, but mainly to show that (contrary to the OP's supposition) people can sleep on the ground with minimal shelter and go around naked in inclement weather, without dropping down dead immediately.

Grant Hutchison

I have found that, when sleepy, about all you need to do to go to sleep is close your eyes. Sometimes they just slam shut.

If there are any hunters who have not taken an impromptu nap (without benefit of pillow, blanket, etc) I have never met one. The nap is more likley in lousy weather, and a handy fir tree is adequate shelter.

Argos
2010-May-20, 09:09 PM
Yes, Darwin's observations were made in December and January. It's difficult to imagine that he entirely made up the small cloaks and the nakedness: there seems to be rather a lot of detail, including much I didn't quote.

Not necessary. The Voyge of the Beagle is an old and dear companion. :)

I would never say he made up the stories [only that he wasnīt immune to bias]. But the fact that it was summer(*) tells us something. I can believe that he may have seen the natives in their summer clothes.

(*) Which, when referring to Southern Patagonia, is just a figure of speech.

grant hutchison
2010-May-20, 09:15 PM
I can believe that he may have seen the natives in their summer clothes.I'm sure he did. But it seems we're agreed that summer in Tierra del Fuego isn't a walk in the park, and that what he describes shows that humans can survive under quite adverse circumstances without pillows and quilts.

Grant Hutchison

Gillianren
2010-May-20, 09:18 PM
I have found that, when sleepy, about all you need to do to go to sleep is close your eyes. Sometimes they just slam shut.

Unless you're an insomniac. Lying awake exhausted is never a fun experience.

BigDon
2010-May-20, 09:28 PM
Unless you're an insomniac. Lying awake exhausted is never a fun experience.

Now imagine lying awake exhausted in snow!

Argos
2010-May-20, 09:36 PM
I'm sure he did. But it seems we're agreed that summer in Tierra del Fuego isn't a walk in the park, and that what he describes shows that humans can survive under quite adverse circumstances without pillows and quilts.

Weīre in agreement. Itīs interesting that Magellan had previously described the people of Patagonia, and created his fair share of myths [as the existence of a race of giants - the Tehuelches - actually a taller-than-average tribe].

Jens
2010-May-21, 02:03 AM
As an additional snippet, people can sleep fairly well sitting up (though I can't very well), and there are even people who can sleep standing up (holding onto something). Sometimes people sleep standing up on the subways home. One thing for WD40 is that people need sleep, and go insane after a period of sleeplessness that is not so long (I can't remember but it's probably less than a week). So the fact that we managed to survive and thrive as a species is evidence that people were able to sleep, no matter how uncomfortable the circumstances may appear to us.

novaderrik
2010-May-21, 02:52 AM
Well, as has been observed before, he did lead his people to about the only part of the Middle East without oil...

that's a good one.. chosen land, indeed.

dwnielsen
2010-May-21, 09:37 AM
The insects seems like a really difficult one in certain areas; how well does a smoking fire prevent insects in the complete outdoors? The cold is at least somewhat preventable in temperate zones. A fit person can balance pretty comfortably holding an arm over the head (oftentimes I actually prefer a shirt to a pillow).

I went to jail for a couple of days (the supposed charge was thrown out of court). Trying to sleep with bright fluorescent lights in the face and persistent yelling 24 hours a day can be done. Seems like I had a similar experience someplace... oh yeah, think it was called college.

SolusLupus
2010-May-21, 08:23 PM
The insects seems like a really difficult one in certain areas; how well does a smoking fire prevent insects in the complete outdoors?

Get used to them, lie down where they're not common, cover yourself up so they don't fly on you, and avoid the swamps. Seems easy to me.

And I'm not even talking about a fire.

I just have to note, "certain areas" is very important here. Humans spread according to advances in technology. They got further than before with Acheulean technology, and especially with the advent of fire. When the agricultural evolution came, just to pull an example, it got to the point where you could have a functioning city in the desert as the Babylonians did. And, unless you discount its existence, it even allowed for the Hanging Gardens. ;)

Humans are mostly Plains creatures, not a jungle/forest type, so I'd assume less nasty bugs dropping on you.

Argos
2010-May-21, 08:26 PM
Get used to them,

Thatīs the hard part.

SolusLupus
2010-May-21, 08:27 PM
Thatīs the hard part.

It's easier when you grow up around them. I've also noticed that some people that grow up mostly outside and are used to leaving the window open, are more tolerant of insects crawling into the building than I am.

danscope
2010-May-21, 09:03 PM
If ........ " IF" you are tired enough,...... you can sleep anywhere, any time . Try sleeping on a diesel submarine with several railroad diesel
engnes roaring while you are snorkeling on the surface in heavy seas.
If you work hard enough and long enough, you will find sleep soon enough. Thuds third law . "It works long enough: it must sleep. "

Dan

BigDon
2010-May-22, 06:32 AM
Hey Solis, I apologize for getting you yelled at. Mods, I feel I did start it.

That first comment was a knee jerk reaction on my part to a percieved overly cynical post on your part. Then, after you responded, my second reply was calculated to annoy you further. It seemed to work.

I actually wanted to agree with you in a couple of other threads and I wanted to clear this up first so you wouldn't think I was still mucking with you.

Once again, sorry. Have a nice weekend.

SolusLupus
2010-May-22, 06:57 AM
Hey Solis,

Solus. I know it seems snarky to say that in response to an apology, but no one could spell "Lonewulf" right, either. I try to call you Don, not Dog or Dawn or Dan.


I apologize for getting you yelled at. Mods, I feel I did start it.

That first comment was a knee jerk reaction on my part to a percieved overly cynical post on your part. Then, after you responded, my second reply was calculated to annoy you further. It seemed to work.

I actually wanted to agree with you in a couple of other threads and I wanted to clear this up first so you wouldn't think I was still mucking with you.

Once again, sorry. Have a nice weekend.

Apology accepted. :)

Just a suggestion, maybe next time you're trippy on medication, you should avoid making posts for a while? It might lead to less incidents like this.

Either way, I wasn't being cynical, just going with what the science says. Science does say that humans/hominids were scavengers, and it wasn't until we developed real hunting tools (arrows, spears, etc.) that we started to become hunters. Until then, rock tools were mostly to prepare game that was found -- although a single rock could serve several different uses, but few of them were for actual hunting.

BigDon
2010-May-22, 07:29 AM
Solus, Gillian said the same thing.

Had to tell her I'm too loopy to do gardening (or stand up much) and tv would drive me to a tri-state killing spree in about three days. (Nobody wants that.)

I actually contemplated a self-preservation banning but I don't have anything else to do!

(Back on subject) I know my fish sleep, and with frogs you can tell when they are asleep because they shut their pupils.

captain swoop
2010-May-22, 10:01 AM
nice as the apologies etc are they could have been done by PM, same with the spelling flame. Keep it to the subject. keep stuff like this for PM or reporting.
Thanks

HenrikOlsen
2010-May-22, 02:43 PM
Get used to them, lie down where they're not common, cover yourself up so they don't fly on you, and avoid the swamps. Seems easy to me.
Move to where they aren't.

I've read suggestions that the repopulation of Scandinavia after the last ice age was partially driven by the fact that following the receding edge of the ice the worst mosquito problems were avoided.
Further from the edge, it was warm enough and damp enough from the recent melt for a really nasty mosquito problem so there'd be a northward moving Goldilocks zone.

Nicolas
2010-May-22, 03:01 PM
Indeed: if you're tired enough, you sleep in any position, in any location. I've spent two weeks sleeping every morning and evening sitting unsupported on the edge of a small boat. Miraculously, I never fell overboard. :)

mugaliens
2010-May-24, 09:50 AM
Could you sleep every night like this for years?

Yes, in fact I did through about age 22, until I began sleeping on my side, using a pillow, instead.

What in the world is up with this post, wd40? I'm sure succeeding entries will be memorable!


How about using furs or skins as covers? Iff you were living in a tropical location you wouldn't even need a cover. How about a bundle of furs or a wooden block as a pillow?
traditional Japanese sleeping arrangements include a wooden block as a pillow see here (http://www.japan-101.com/photos/showimage.php?i=52862)

How about an arm? Many is the time I used my arm for a pillow.


Also in a tropical location, without a cover, a shelter or some repellent, you're going to be bitten to pieces, maybe even literally to death, let alone sores, rashes and infections. How did they survive? We are talking about 250,000 years-ago Homo Sapiens, with exactly the same intelligence, hairlessness and physical frailty as ourselves.

I flew C-130s. Guess where I got bit: Here, in the US, as well is in Rosey Roads aka Puerto Rico. I never got bit in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Honduras, and a bunch of other places because we don't spray down there! The bird and bat populations are alive and well down there and an evening dinner there is a rather enjoyable, bug-free experience.


There are plenty of "modern-type" humans around the world today who don't have all these things.

Bingo! As an avid backpacker, I often don't have "these things" yet manage to get a great night's sleep in the backcountry anyway.

Come on, people! Are you really that inexperienced when it comes to basic survival skills? By way of some of these comments I'm of the opinion some of you just might expire this evening if you were deprived access to your bidet!


A naked, uncovered homo sapiens, sleeping exposed on the ground, can't survive for long in nights where the temperature goes below 12 decrees C.

What moron doesn't cover himself when cold? Gorillas coverthemselves when cold. Even dogs, cats, wolves, foxes - most land-based mammals on our planet cover themselves when cold, wd40, so what species of animal are you talkng about, here? Certainly not homo sapiens, who knows (or figures out) well enough to cover himself when cold!


People living in the jungles of the Amazon sleep naked, they live naked. Why would they have to sleep on the ground? If the temp is only 12 degrees C then a covering and dshelter can be fashioned in very little time. For sleeping a Hammock or simple nest or platform isn't too hard to build, branches and turf can make walls and a roof in no time along with skins and furs, any fool can be uncomfortable. as you point out yourself, they had the same intelligence as us.

You're right - they sleep in hammocks. As they take a fair amount of time to weave, they carry them with them, but their shelters they build on the spot, as those are done one per group (they share when it's raining and they're on the move), so the work takes little time.

But it's not at all uncomfortable. In fact, it's very comfortable.


Maybe I've watched too much of Charlton Heston on "Mysterious Origins of Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2f_-YyleOE...

Evidently!


...but it does seem than unlike other animals, homo sapiens has no inborn instincts, is weak, hairless, defenceless, requires suckling for a year, mothering for 10 years, needs clothing, shelter, a cooked diet, tools to survive, social and intellectual stimulation etc, and all these needs had to be supplied straight away i.e. is there really some kind of mystery about his origins, not in line with a gradual, painful development over 250 millennia?

Uh, does the fact that I've hiking, camping, and backpacking among the mountain lions, wolves, and grizzlys of the Inland Northwest (NE Washington and Northern Idaho) as well as all over Colorado, seeing many of the same, while enjoying myself in immense comfort, without having fend off my food against scavengers, except, perhaps, the occasional ground squirrel? I did have a momma moose wander into camp one time which was daunting, but that's another story.

My goodness, dw40 - you're painting us out to have evolved beyond any ability to return to the backcountry and that's absolutely false. Long before I received any training whatsoever from the Air Force I grew up living next to a heavily wooded area in Florida. As kids we would hunt squirrel, tortoise, fish, snake - whatever floated our boat, but lived mostly on a diet of berries (spring-summer) and peanuts (the rest of the year). Mom and dad never let us stay overnight in the woods, but they constantly said, "what did you eat all day long out there! You must be famished!"

No, Mom - we were stuffed, and the diamondback was delicious! Sorry we couldn't show you it's skin, but it was a real big one and it took a lot of hits with the gig before it settled down.

We made our own gigs. One image of a friend down the street holding a gig and we were making them. One image on National Geographic of some anthropologist chipping away at an arrowhead and we made dozes of them, primary as spears for small game. We'd reduce them in size for homemade arrows (I wasn't a rich child - just well-fed).

Geez, people - give it up! We're the result of millions of years of evolution! We don't "own" the wilderness, but we do share it. A week and a half ago while hiking through Beaver Creek State Wildlife area I smelled a couger (they're quite rank, actually), but he smelled me first and beat feet.


A bunch of you really need to bone up on your anthropology.

Yeah! No kidding! They don't get it! About time they step out of their hotel rooms and do a little bit of "been there, done that."


Plenty of extant peoples, notable among them certain tribes of Tuareg, sleep propped up on one elbow to keep arthopods of the order Solpugidae out of their noses, hair and ears.

I didn't know that! We just flicked 'em away to keep 'em from picking... (uh, too gross for this forum - protein is protein). Not exactly a pleasant experience, though, so we did take measures to ensure the tent sides were well buried and the flaps done up tight. Beats the snot out of getting mortered, though.


...and somebody more knowledgeble tell WD40 about the Dutch and their sleeping arrangments back in the 17 through 18 hundreds?

Sounds like my great-grandpa and great-great-grandpa. They were dutch. I've seen their houses. In the us, they used mid-1800's plaster smeared through slat plasterboard. Back in the home country, it was more brick and mud construction, though some very fine castles were built using much more acceptable construction techniques!


Did anyone think of the fact that one of the handiest sources of heat, shelter and neck support may be another Homo Sapiens? Get an area that is a bit enclosed, get a little ground cover, and a bunch of friends and family, and you could prolly make things survivable, if not comfortable.

Every time I've camped out I've always sheltered in separate tents (except with my ex-wife, which was considerably warmer). And except on one occasion, where we found ourselves in the midst of a blizzard and I (I was the lead instructor) called a halt to the four, two-man teams pitching four tents and directed one tent for shelter. Surprise, surprise, you can actually fit eight cots into a two-man tent! "Ok, screw the other tents. There's a blizzard going on. Training revised as required." - "Amended training plan approved. Commander out."

I think I'll give this thread a rest. We've only been doing this for a couple million years, wd40. It's gone far beyond "been there, done that, got the t-shirt." We're here to stay come hell or high water. And don't get me wrong! I live at a wonderful apartment complex with a lap pool and grills, which were cooking some serious steaks and fish, today!

But make no mistake about it, wd40 - we human beings have evolved very, very well to inhabit our entire planet, and indeed off-world, in part by natural resources, and in part by developed ingenuity, and I, for one, am very appreciative of the many and varied means we've come up with to ensure our survival.

Strange
2010-May-24, 09:57 AM
Worth remembering that a lot of people's lives in the past were "nasty, brutish and short" (and, sadly, that is still true today).

Yep, people get bitten by insects (or worse) and many of them died because of it. But the human race carries on anyway. It's almost like we don't have a choice.

Strange
2010-May-24, 10:02 AM
Come on, people!

I thought it was pretty much only wd40 who was claiming we couldn't survive "in the wild"...

grant hutchison
2010-May-24, 10:51 AM
Come on, people! Are you really that inexperienced when it comes to basic survival skills? By way of some of these comments I'm of the opinion some of you just might expire this evening if you were deprived access to your bidet!I'm with Strange. Exactly which "people" are you exhorting so patronizingly?

Grant Hutchison

Argos
2010-May-24, 03:02 PM
Come on, people! Are you really that inexperienced when it comes to basic survival skills? By way of some of these comments I'm of the opinion some of you just might expire this evening if you were deprived access to your bidet!

Youīre right. I wouldnīt go very far without hot baths, sparkling water and linen tables.

Gillianren
2010-May-24, 04:40 PM
Youīre right. I wouldnīt go very far without hot baths, sparkling water and linen tables.

Table linens, possibly?

I can survive a lot longer than I'd want to, especially since living the life of even our quite recent ancestors would deprive me of most of my painkilling options, and I'd really rather avoid getting addicted to opium.

Argos
2010-May-24, 06:01 PM
Table linens, possibly?

Oops. thanks. :)

captain swoop
2010-May-24, 11:57 PM
It's just miserable without a thermarest.

I have a thermarest, it's got the protective cover/seat conversion. Best backpacking gear ever.

Xelebes
2010-May-25, 12:53 AM
Somebody is just being a hater and a dragger downer. Pointing out psuedo-mysteries to people


language magnets, how do they work?!

Jens
2010-May-25, 01:39 AM
I'm with Strange. Exactly which "people" are you exhorting so patronizingly?


I was going to say, me three. I think pretty much everybody realizes that wd40 has a problem with imagining humans outside of modern developed city life. I mean, it once started a thread asking whether people would go insane if they couldn't take showers. But I don't think anybody else is taking that position...

Nick Theodorakis
2010-May-25, 01:47 AM
I just wanted to say there was a jarring juxtaposition of thread titles just now when viewing "new posts." "Fatal Familial Insomnia" was followed immediately by "How did they get to sleep?"

Nick

Jens
2010-May-25, 10:42 AM
I just wanted to say there was a jarring juxtaposition of thread titles just now when viewing "new posts." "Fatal Familial Insomnia" was followed immediately by "How did they get to sleep?"


I suppose it might seem that way. But IIRC the first thread you mentioned was actually started as a spin-off of the second. So it's not that much of a coincidence.

wd40
2010-Nov-01, 03:28 PM
It seems as though early humans were more skilled than was thought http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/644930.html

But is even putting back "pressure flaking" to 75,000 BC enough to explain how humans survived without it for 200,000 years?

Strange
2010-Nov-01, 04:08 PM
It seems as though early humans were more skilled than was thought http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/644930.html

But is even putting back "pressure flaking" to 75,000 BC enough to explain how humans survived without it for 200,000 years?

Pretty much the same way all other mammals, including other primates, survive without it.

wd40
2010-Nov-01, 08:25 PM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.

danscope
2010-Nov-01, 08:35 PM
WD, It all depends on the environment, and what is plentifull...ie low hanging fruit . Obviously, the natives got through. N'est pas?

Strange
2010-Nov-01, 08:38 PM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.

I wondered what species you were talking about there. Doesn't sounds like any I know.

Without any in-built drives, instinct

Really?

naked and defenceless until 10 years old

Naked until the age of 10? What's that about? And defenceless? Many modern children are out at work by the age of 6.

subject to depression, despair and demoralisation

And also capable of great things due to their imagination, use of ad-hoc tools, ability to communicate and cooperate, etc.

unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent

You don't seem to understand that evolution is a slow process of gradual transition. They would have had tools of various sorts before those we have a record of. Many other animals make and use tools from things they find around them.

What is the purpose of this thread?

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-01, 08:43 PM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.

One of the problems in archaeology is distinguishing between geofacts and artifacts. A geofact, in its simplest form, is a naturally broken sharp rock that could be picked up and used as a tool. Proving that a geofact was used by a human is virtually impossible unless some residue somehow survived on the item to be detected in a lab, and then it is only suggestive of use. Sharp sticks rarely survive. Round throwing rocks found in an archaeological context are again only suggestive of use. But, yet we survived. Also, realize that human reproduction age can be as young as twelve routinely and that the average lifespan was probably very short, then.

Gillianren
2010-Nov-01, 09:01 PM
And you know, even those subject to depression aren't depressed all the time. Yes, it's pretty debilitating when it's happening, but primates are social animals. The fact is, we are only theoretically defenseless. We have the protection of the group. Many other animals, even leaving out the other primates, rely on groups as a defensive strategy. It strikes me, wd40, that you need to do a little more research before stating things as fact. Many of the things you assert are easily shown to be wrong.

kleindoofy
2010-Nov-01, 09:28 PM
When a human population or individual evolves in, has time to adapt to, or is especially prepared for a certain environment, it's pretty amazing how much they can make of how little and how they can survive and even prosper under conditions we would consider almost impossible.

However, an experiment* I recently read about showed that when your average Joe Blow from the soft living room couches of modern culture is suddenly dropped off in the middle of nowhere without any preparation, supplies, etc., only in his street clothes, his chances of surviving more than ten days in the wild are pretty slim.

The experiment showed that even 'avid backpackers' with high opinions of their own survival skills were unpleasantly surprised when confronted with the realties of nature once the country store was no longer anywhere within reach.

The experiment showed that the large number of people who said 'easy, I could do that' in fact couldn't. Exposure, hunger, etc. took its toll fast and mercilessly. Most of the participants in the experiment had to give up after three days.



*Sorry, no link.

SkepticJ
2010-Nov-01, 09:39 PM
Do you really even need chipped rocks to survive?

Sure, they do the job well, but have you ever cut yourself on split bamboo? The stuff's like knives. It's almost a pre-made spear. All you have to do is split it at an angle.

Bamboo might've been a common tool, but since it has the habit of rotting, we don't have any of those tools left.

Van Rijn
2010-Nov-01, 09:50 PM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.

You make a lot of assertions. How many have you checked? No instincts? No defense? And other species certainly can show symptoms of depression and despair. These days, vets even use anti-depressants for some dogs, and they respond much like humans.

Swift
2010-Nov-01, 10:13 PM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.
The evidence that chimps use tools is overwhelming. It would therefore seem highly likely that most or all early hominids, going back at least to the split from the rest of the great apes, had at least that level of tool making. IIRC, there is some evidence of more sophisticated tool making for Australopithecus (2 to 3 million years ago), though I think this is still being debated.

I'll turn it around wd40 - if you think what you are saying is true, then how exactly do you think humans survived?

JCoyote
2010-Nov-01, 10:54 PM
And I'll throw in a bit about the "lack of instincts", because humans DO have instincts. We have the ability to ignore them, and most of us do not live in situations where we rely on them so the drives they give us are not as obvious, but they are there. Especially nurturing instincts for taking care of young.

Which by the way... is shared by almost all mammals AND has been seen to cross species boundaries with relative ease, among mammals. There is no chicken or the egg issue here, the first homo sapiens child would have been raised among another group of hominids who would have had very similar needs and social structure. There is no "jump" anywhere here. Heck, the first human child could have been raised by wolves or bears or gorillas and survived.

apples
2010-Nov-01, 11:15 PM
Who says people need head support to sleep? Continuous unsupported sleep will eventually strain the neck, but few early modern humans lived past the age of 35, so neck strain was the least of their worries. Besides, loose dirt makes a decent pillow; our forebears were unlikely to be squeamish about getting dirt in their hair. People also did not sleep alone. They probably slept with their mates and children or with other close relatives very near together to share warmth and the cushion of each others' bodies..

astromark
2010-Nov-02, 12:41 AM
The evidence that chimps use tools is overwhelming. It would therefore seem highly likely that most or all early hominids, going back at least to the split from the rest of the great apes, had at least that level of tool making. IIRC, there is some evidence of more sophisticated tool making for Australopithecus (2 to 3 million years ago), though I think this is still being debated.

I'll turn it around wd40 - if you think what you are saying is true, then how exactly do you think humans survived?

... and while waiting for your response to swifts question, ponder this.

Humanity has shown to be very versatile. All corners of this earth are inhabited.

Not only is humanity prevailing. We are a plague upon the landscape...

We are in the deserts, highlands, mountains, Arctic and Antarctic. Every environment.

We are not sleep deprived or starving... where did you find this question ?

Jens
2010-Nov-02, 01:24 AM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation

Just about two of the issues. We don't have strong jaws, presumably because we are able to defend ourselves in other ways. I think the way probably is our ability to pick up sticks and rocks is the answer to that, along with the ability to work together. About the depression, there are scientists who surmise that there may be an evolutionary reason for depression. Think of it a bit like hibernation. Hibernation is a dangerous thing to do, but it has an evolutionary advantage so lots of mammals do it.

swampyankee
2010-Nov-02, 02:41 AM
Without any in-built drives, instincts, skills, with a weak jaw, no fangs, naked and defenceless until 10 years old, subject to depression, despair and demoralisation - unlike other mammals, a homo sapiens is not going to be able to survive for long without tools ie they are a requirement very soon after his advent.

Humans are hardly the only mammals that are born helpless -- ever see newborn puppies? -- but we've replaced the fangs with weaponry. Hardly the only primate to use artificial weapons, as baboons are known to throw rocks at lions.

Remember, in the scheme of things, humans are actually on the large size for animals. Throw those handy external claws into the equation -- let's call them spears -- and humans soon become too dangerous even for the big cats. After all, no carnivore wants a prey animal that has any chance. This may be why predators put effort into keeping their kills: somebody will take it.

Spoons
2010-Nov-02, 04:38 AM
If I can sleep in a stairwell I reckon I can sleep almost anywhere.

I regularly sleep on the floor, and often without a pillow. I actually find that better than sleeping on my bed, if my back is already out of whack. It sometimes helps to straighten my spine.

Oh, and if you've ever watched Man vs Wild or Survivorman it's pretty easy to see how you can create all these creature comforts out of scavenged items.

Ara Pacis
2010-Nov-02, 05:03 AM
How did they not sleep. They must have been constantly exhausted.

Strange
2010-Nov-02, 09:38 AM
How did they not sleep. They must have been constantly exhausted.

So far wd40 has expressed disbelief that humans could survive without pillows, clothes, soap, tools, and electric guitars (OK, maybe not the last one). I'm still not sure what the point is.

Spoons
2010-Nov-02, 09:43 AM
So far wd40 has expressed disbelief that humans could survive without pillows, clothes, soap, tools, and electric guitars (OK, maybe not the last one). I'm still not sure what the point is.

How ever did Eric Clapton survive all those years?

tnjrp
2010-Nov-02, 10:11 AM
So far wd40 has expressed disbelief that humans could survive without pillows, clothes, soap, tools, and electric guitars (OK, maybe not the last one). I'm still not sure what the point is.The point, considering wd40's various posts, would be that humans were created and their supposed evolution is a lie at worst, a gross misunderstanding at best. The perceived human inability to survive without "sufficient cultural evolution background", including but not limited to the ability to make headrests, would be evidence for Special Creation.

Strange
2010-Nov-02, 10:49 AM
The point, considering wd40's various posts, would be that humans were created and their supposed evolution is a lie at worst, a gross misunderstanding at best. The perceived human inability to survive without "sufficient cultural evolution background", including but not limited to the ability to make headrests, would be evidence for Special Creation.

I'm not in the least bit ashamed to say I know so little about those sorts of ideas that I couldn't figure that out for myself! (I have no idea what "special creation" is and I don't think I want to.)

tnjrp
2010-Nov-02, 10:56 AM
I could tell you but then the likelihood of me getting my second infraction would increase exponentially ;)

Swift
2010-Nov-02, 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Strange
So far wd40 has expressed disbelief that humans could survive without pillows, clothes, soap, tools, and electric guitars (OK, maybe not the last one). I'm still not sure what the point isHow ever did Eric Clapton survive all those years?
Evidence of a proto-electric Clapton (http://www.halleonard.com/common/closerLook/00320265/00320265FC.jpg)

wd40
2010-Nov-02, 12:40 PM
Since the first homo sapiens and ourselves are exactly the same species with the same potential capabilities in mind and body, so presumably a human from 750,000 years ago could be taken to this century and trained to survive in it.

But could any single one alive today, even a Bushman, be taken back to 750,000 BCE and survive without tools, fire, clothing, shelter or meat? Could even a new-born of today be raised and trained from birth to survive then?

Unlike other mammals and primates, a human seems to have so many essential requirements immediately from birth, that I think there is something "mysterious" about his origins (not Special Creation in the Garden of Eden), and that something is missing about his origins in the record.

tnjrp
2010-Nov-02, 01:08 PM
Since the first homo sapiens and ourselves are exactly the same species with the same potential capabilities in mind and body, so presumably a human from 750,000 years ago could be taken to this century and trained to survive in itPresumably, barring "unforeseen circumstances" such as vulnerability to diseases that are harmless to modern humans due to undetected evolution of immune system.


But could any single one alive today, even a Bushman, be taken back to 750,000 BCE and survive without tools, fire, clothing, shelter or meat?Well, for a start there are several documented cases of feral "wolf" children who have done just that. Obviously they haven't survived on their own but this inability is a trait common to a large number of mammals, for example canines. In the case of human vs. primates, it's one more question of quantity instead of quality. This need for extra quantity has been covered over the course of human evolution by the extensive cultural evolution of hominids, as has been already explained to you.


Could even a new-born of today be raised and trained from birth to survive then?Without a shred of doubt, again barring the possibilities such as mentioned above. This is however of course simply a mind game of no great consequence. Ain't gonna happen.


Unlike other mammals and primates, a human seems to have so many essential requirements immediately from birth, that I think there is something "mysterious" about his origins (not Special Creation in the Garden of Eden), and that something is missing about his origins in the record.I don't think human babies have essential requirements that would differ from those of other new-born primates. A new-born chimp is almost exactly as vulnerable and feeble as a human equivalent. Certainly the difference does not extent to being evidence for human origins being exceedingly "mysterious".

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-02, 01:12 PM
Since the first homo sapiens and ourselves are exactly the same species with the same potential capabilities in mind and body, so presumably a human from 750,000 years ago could be taken to this century and trained to survive in it.

But could any single one alive today, even a Bushman, be taken back to 750,000 BCE and survive without tools, fire, clothing, shelter or meat? Could even a new-born of today be raised and trained from birth to survive then?

Unlike other mammals and primates, a human seems to have so many essential requirements immediately from birth, that I think there is something "mysterious" about his origins (not Special Creation in the Garden of Eden), and that something is missing about his origins in the record.

Homo sapiens sapiens are maybe dated to around 100kya to 150 kya. We are very recent.

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-02, 01:14 PM
Evidence of a proto-electric Clapton (http://www.halleonard.com/common/closerLook/00320265/00320265FC.jpg)

Well a tendon stretched on a flexible stick was probably first.

Tool store (http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban2855l.jpg)

wd40
2010-Nov-02, 01:15 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primates. A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him.

Humans must have something "non-materialistic" that are not essential for his survival whether it be hope, money, women, cupidity, conquest, glory, building, power, acquistion of knowledge for knowledge's sake, something to worship etc., and had to have had those requirements fulfilled right from his origin c 1 million years ago.

Even Homo Neanderthalis buried his dead with their objects, presumably indicating that he believed in a spirit-world and an Afterlife?

grant hutchison
2010-Nov-02, 01:26 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primates. A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him.How odd, then, that the vast majority of humans who have ever existed, many of them alive today, have lived lives of raw, harsh, leaden monotony. The "human spirit", like "childhood", is a cultural luxury item not afforded to everyone.

Grant Hutchison

tnjrp
2010-Nov-02, 01:36 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primatesHumans have a much more developed capacity for symbolic information processing than other primates, but...
A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him...generally, all animals trivially must have some sort of "drive to survive". If this wasn't the case, they'd not be here today after facing stiff competition over millions of years from species that do posses such a trait.

On the old Interwebz principle that unsupported assertion can be countered with another, I maintain that you have this "human spirit" thing bass-awkwards: because of the aforementioned information processing capacity, humans also have greater ability to consider their future and to subsrcibe perceived deeper meaning to their actions than other primates, enforced by the cumulative nature of cultural evolution. "Human spirit" is the result of us plastering such meaning on top of more basic needs and drives until it looks like it's something deep and wonderful we are looking at.


Humans must have something "non-materialistic" that are not essential for his survival whether it be hope, money, women, cupidity, conquest, glory, building, power, acquistion of knowledge for knowledge's sake, something to worship etc., and had to have had those requirements fulfilled right from his origin c 1 million years agoPidgeons are known to be superstitious.

And I personally much prefer materialistic women over the nonmaterialistic sort.


Even Homo Neanderthalis buried his dead with their objects, presumably indicating that he believed in a spirit-world and an Afterlife?Belief in X in and of itself is evidence for the existence of X only if you believe in X.

Strange
2010-Nov-02, 01:58 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primates. A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him.

How do you know that was the state they lived in? They would have also had music, dance, love, storytelling, hope and all the other things that keep people going in adversity. Even in desparate circumstances such as concentration camps people will find things to laugh about.

Also, I have read that the amount of work that has to be done by hunter-gathers to get enough food to live on is much less than the number of hours you have to work today to earn the money to buy your food. So they may have had many happy hours sitting around the camp fire telling stories and singing songs. Or maybe not. We will probably never know.


Humans must have something "non-materialistic" that are not essential for his survival whether it be hope, money, women, cupidity, conquest, glory, building, power, acquistion of knowledge for knowledge's sake, something to worship etc., and had to have had those requirements fulfilled right from his origin c 1 million years ago.

You still seem to think that one day there were no humans and the next there were a bunch of fully-formed modern humans dropped into the African savanna. "I say chaps, what do we do now? This looks a bit bleak. Anyone know anything about hunting? Anyone? No? Oh dear, we are in for a hard time."


Even Homo Neanderthalis buried his dead with their objects, presumably indicating that he believed in a spirit-world and an Afterlife?

Very possibly (although we never know for sure). And this may have helped them get through the tough times. Maybe these ideas developed specifically because times were tough occasionally.

What is this "mystery" you allude to?

Strange
2010-Nov-02, 02:00 PM
Since the first homo sapiens and ourselves are exactly the same species ...

Not much to add to tnjrp's comments, but I would point out that we have continued to evolve since then. Although only in minor ways, that probably aren't relevant to refuting your point.

Swift
2010-Nov-02, 02:04 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primates. A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him.

Humans must have something "non-materialistic" that are not essential for his survival whether it be hope, money, women, cupidity, conquest, glory, building, power, acquistion of knowledge for knowledge's sake, something to worship etc., and had to have had those requirements fulfilled right from his origin c 1 million years ago.

Even Homo Neanderthalis buried his dead with their objects, presumably indicating that he believed in a spirit-world and an Afterlife?
Again, there is abundant evidence that chimps, gorillas, and the other great apes have emotional states very similar to humans. For example, if you read Jane Goodall's work, there is evidence that chimps, in some way, mourn the dead (other info about chimps and death (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/04/26/how-chimpanzees-deal-with-death-and-dying/)). There is even evidence that other animals do too (read about how elephants act when they find the bones of a long dead companion or deal with death - link (http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Senses/Grieving/grieving.html), link (http://www.pulseplanet.com/dailyprogram/dailies.php?POP=1868)).

Frankly, I don't think we are all that different from the other primates, and it therefore seems highly likely that all the various hominids had these characteristics.

I'm still not quite sure what your point is.

Spoons
2010-Nov-02, 02:13 PM
Again, there is abundant evidence that chimps, gorillas, and the other great apes have emotional states very similar to humans. For example, if you read Jane Goodall's work, there is evidence that chimps, in some way, mourn the dead. There is even evidence that other animals do too (read about how elephants act when they find the bones of a long dead companion or deal with death - link (http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Senses/Grieving/grieving.html), link (http://www.pulseplanet.com/dailyprogram/dailies.php?POP=1868)).
The Secret Life of Elephants highlighted this sort of thing quite well, I believe. They mentioned this on the local radio talk-back this morning.


Frankly, I don't think we are all that different from the other primates, and it therefore seems highly likely that all the various hominids had these characteristics.
Agreed, entirely.


I'm still not quite sure what your point is.
You're not alone there. I'm starting to wonder where this is supposed to be leading. Maybe a summary from wd40 of the key points would help?

Strange
2010-Nov-02, 02:42 PM
Unlike other mammals and primates, a human seems to have so many essential requirements immediately from birth, that I think there is something "mysterious" about his origins (not Special Creation in the Garden of Eden), and that something is missing about his origins in the record.

Your personal incredulity is about as convincing as those who claim humans cannot build things like the pyramids because "it looks too difficult" (even though the process is well documented).

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-02, 03:38 PM
....., and that something is missing about his origins in the record.

True, the paucity of the fossil record is renowned. Case in point, the Clovis people in North America came on the scene 11.8rcybp and disappeared 10.9rcybp, plus or minus, with their unique lithic technology. Their origin is unknown. The reason for their exit is unknown. Many theories exist.

Gillianren
2010-Nov-02, 04:13 PM
There is something called "the human spirit", that makes him different from other primates. A human faced with years, decades, centuries, and millennia with nothing but raw, harsh materialistic, leadenly monotonous mere survival won't survive long, once his 'spirit' fails him.

Yes, we call something "the human spirit." Have you looked into whether other cultures have the same concept, or are you just extrapolating onto all humans from what you believe is true again?


Humans must have something "non-materialistic" that are not essential for his survival whether it be hope, money, women, cupidity, conquest, glory, building, power, acquistion of knowledge for knowledge's sake, something to worship etc., and had to have had those requirements fulfilled right from his origin c 1 million years ago.

It's funny--money, conquest, and building are, in modern terms, materialistic. I'll also note that not all humans need to "acquire" women in order to survive. You've got sexist language in your pronoun disagreement. "A human . . . for their survival" is perfectly grammatically correct by any reasonable standard. "Humans . . . for his survival" is not.


Even Homo Neanderthalis buried his dead with their objects, presumably indicating that he believed in a spirit-world and an Afterlife?

"Presumably." But you've presumed and been wrong several times of late. Glaringly so.

Buttercup
2010-Nov-02, 05:03 PM
The same way they figured out how to have sex without all the endless glossy magazine articles, TV talk shows about it and "films."

(And we're all glad, right? Otherwise we wouldn't be here!)

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-02, 05:34 PM
The same way they figured out how to have sex without all the endless glossy magazine articles, TV talk shows about it and "films."

(And we're all glad, right? Otherwise we wouldn't be here!)

Darkness and needing to keep warm were probably a factor. The birth statistics nine months after major power outage is a clue. I also suspect that women were subjugated in those early times.

wd40
2010-Nov-03, 01:51 AM
True, the paucity of the fossil record is renowned. Case in point, the Clovis people in North America came on the scene 11.8rcybp and disappeared 10.9rcybp, plus or minus, with their unique lithic technology. Their origin is unknown. The reason for their exit is unknown. Many theories exist.

What in fact are the main evidences that homo sapiens evolved from an ape-like creature c 1million years ago?

kleindoofy
2010-Nov-03, 02:30 AM
The point, considering wd40's various posts, would be that humans were created and their supposed evolution is a lie at worst, a gross misunderstanding at best. ...

What in fact are the main evidences that homo sapiens evolved from an ape-like creature c 1million years ago?
Hmmm, is the fig leaf now falling off the opening question?

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-03, 02:32 AM
What in fact are the main evidences that homo sapiens evolved from an ape-like creature c 1million years ago?

A line of extinct precursor species.

jlhredshift
2010-Nov-03, 02:35 AM
Hmmm, is the fig leaf now falling off the opening question?

In an earlier post I had referred him to some reading material, that obviously has not been read.

danscope
2010-Nov-03, 02:41 AM
And some people think the world is 4000 years old . They have their own museum ..... and everything .

Spoons
2010-Nov-03, 03:24 AM
Hmmm, is the fig leaf now falling off the opening question?

Yep, now we finally get to the basis of wd40's thinking. Wouldn't it have been easier to open with the questioning of evolution?

wd40
2010-Nov-03, 03:57 AM
Who says people need head support to sleep? Continuous unsupported sleep will eventually strain the neck, but few early modern humans lived past the age of 35, so neck strain was the least of their worries. Besides, loose dirt makes a decent pillow

Even mild neck strain can be pretty disabling, & if you wake up with it, it will be your main worry!

Do the other primates require head support when sleeping? Are the support requirements of the human cervical vertrebrae different from them?

astromark
2010-Nov-03, 04:11 AM
What in fact are the main evidences that homo sapiens evolved from an ape-like creature c 1million years ago?

Yes the fig leaf falls away...:)... and, exposes a ignorance of fact. Lets stop messing about and say what you mean to 'WD40...

As you will have noted we are sure that 'The human spirit' is concept born of human conditioning. Concepts of religious doctrines and cultures.

A learned cultural behaviour. Look across this threads responses to you.,.. we are trying to help.

The 'evolved from apes' is a bad way of explaining what is our history... Humanity is a stand alone species. ( pun intended:).)

A evolutionary freak that survives to breed. becomes a subspecies and if successful, evolution has taken place...

Note the word 'successful'... Its important. The DNA molecule is determined to prevail and is ruthless as to how that happens.

Adapt or die... and we have and we do... It is this simple.

The want to survive is not the human spirit. A spirit might be a distilled liqueur... or something else...

Van Rijn
2010-Nov-03, 04:16 AM
Do the other primates require head support when sleeping?

Are the support requirements of the human cervical vertrebrae different from them?

What support requirements are you referring to?

tnjrp
2010-Nov-03, 07:36 AM
You still seem to think that one day there were no humans and the next there were a bunch of fully-formed modern humans dropped into the African savanna. "I say chaps, what do we do now? This looks a bit bleak. Anyone know anything about hunting? Anyone? No? Oh dear, we are in for a hard time."Quite. In fact the train of thought looks to run a bit like this: if human( babie)s magically popped into existence X kiloyears ago, then they wouldn't have survived --> they couldn't have popped into existence X kiloyears ago --> human evolution is false.

As to what science says on the subject, well, one can certainly get started with WikiPedia in this case and then follow the given references as needed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Strange
2010-Nov-03, 08:38 AM
Even mild neck strain can be pretty disabling, & if you wake up with it, it will be your main worry!

Yeah, right. "I'm just going to lie here and starve to death because I slept a bit awkwardly last night". Do you not go to work/school if you get a paper cut?


Do the other primates require head support when sleeping? Are the support requirements of the human cervical vertrebrae different from them?

Orangutans, for example, build a nest every night to sleep in. One can use all sorts of things for a head rest:
http://curiouslycool.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/orangutan.jpg
http://animalrescue.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/03/15/orangutan_sleeping.jpg

Not so relevant but cute: http://www.ezwebrus.com/wallpapers/animal/sleeping_puppy.jpg

tnjrp
2010-Nov-03, 08:40 AM
Dogs sleep in most convoluted positions, sometimes involving headrest. And so do Corgis ;)

It's been already established that humans don't absolutely require headrests when sleeping, I do believe. And if they did, it certainly isn't massively complex task to "invent" one as demonstrated by apes.

astromark
2010-Nov-03, 09:04 AM
WD40... We do not need a pillow. Given the choice I would like one. This is because I have become accustomed to that comfort level.

If humanity was thrust into a primitive environment.... some of us would find this very hard...

But with training and time most might get a grasp of survival... well, I will. Not so sure about you.

Does that say anything to your sense of understanding ?

The very fact that humanity has become so diverse and adaptable that what you speak of is not a issue.

Strange
2010-Nov-03, 10:01 AM
Even mild neck strain can be pretty disabling, & if you wake up with it, it will be your main worry!

You seem to have missed all those stories of survival against the odds; people hiking miles on a broken leg, etc. Animals will also carry on normal activities with quite serious injuries. I have read that many (human) fossils have shown signs of serious injury in early life that didn't stop them leaving to a reasonable age (even if not in great comfort). What about people today who have, say, arthritis? They don't just give up. I have woken up with a pain in the neck, shoulder and back from sleeping awkwardly (even with a pillow) and I might moan about it to anyone who will listen, but it hasn't stopped me doing anything (and I'm a real lazy wimp not some tough guy).

Also, you know that aspirin is (derived from) a natural product that mankind has known about for a very, very long time. Even animals have been known to "self medicate" by eating plants that contain emetics, analgesics, antibacterials, etc. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if when Ug woke up with a stiff neck, the village elder gave him some willow bark tea.

Strange
2010-Nov-03, 10:06 AM
Dogs sleep in most convoluted positions, sometimes involving headrest.

Weirdly ours seem to like sleeping with their heads hanging over the edge in a most uncomfortable-looking way. But thta's dogs.


It's been already established that humans don't absolutely require headrests when sleeping, I do believe.

True.


And if they did, it certainly isn't massively complex task to "invent" one as demonstrated by apes.

Also true. Leaves, furs, branch, spouse, dog, stone, ... The possibilities are endless. I wonder when the first humanoid took a bunch of feathers from some fowl that was being prepared for the pot and wrapped them in a bit of spare animal hide.

tnjrp
2010-Nov-03, 10:13 AM
Weirdly ours seem to like sleeping with their heads hanging over the edge in a most uncomfortable-looking way. But thta's dogsThat is one way to do it, certainly, tho mine don't do that too often. OTOH the one in my avatar pic has been known to sleep curled up in a chair with his head on the armsrest. And here's a pic of a puppy I had for a while (had to give him away :() actually enjoying the chance to use a pillow:
http://kamalat.web44.net/files/rune_1.jpg

HenrikOlsen
2010-Nov-03, 11:32 AM
And some people think the world is 4000 years old . They have their own museum ..... and everything .
6014.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Nov-03, 11:36 AM
Since the first homo sapiens and ourselves are exactly the same species with the same potential capabilities in mind and body, so presumably a human from 750,000 years ago could be taken to this century and trained to survive in it.

But could any single one alive today, even a Bushman, be taken back to 750,000 BCE and survive without tools, fire, clothing, shelter or meat? Could even a new-born of today be raised and trained from birth to survive then?
Take any one of the people from 750,000 years ago and put them in an unknown environment without tools and a cooperating social group and they'd die just as fast.
Have them adopt a modern newborn and it would be as likely to survive as them, possibly more, as the mother would have been better fed during pregnancy so the child would likely be bigger from the start.

On the other hand, the transplanted children (then to now and now to then) would have no resistance to contemporary diseases which they'd normally get during the pregnancy from exposure of the mother so they'd both be highly susceptible to getting sick.

Swift
2010-Nov-03, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by wd40
What in fact are the main evidences that homo sapiens evolved from an ape-like creature c 1million years ago?
A line of extinct precursor species.
Further evidence: the genetic similarity of humans and the other great apes, the behavioral similarity of humans and the other great apes, the anatomical similarity of humans and the other great apes.

Genetic modeling of the rates of mutation are in general agreement with the fossil record.

By the way, homo sapiens didn't evolve 1 million years ago. Though the exact details are still being discovered, the current thinking is that primates developed about 65 million years ago (mya), the great apes about 15 mya, the last common ancestor of humans and chimps about 7 mya, Australopithecus about 3 to 4 mya, Homo habilis and Homo erectus about 2.5 mya, and Homo sapiens about 200,000 ya. (one reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution))

agingjb
2010-Nov-03, 01:20 PM
I've been told that in England around the 1500's people mostly slept sitting up. I've no idea whether this is true, or if it is relevant to pre-historic people.

Strange
2010-Nov-03, 01:43 PM
I've been told that in England around the 1500's people mostly slept sitting up. I've no idea whether this is true, or if it is relevant to pre-historic people.

Maybe you are thinking of 15:00 on Sunday after visiting the pub and having a big roast lunch?

tnjrp
2010-Nov-03, 01:50 PM
I didn't immediately find anything on the subject but I did find somebody suggesting Cro-magnons slept sitting up :)

Also, some medical conditions pretty much force you to sleep sitting up because you can't breathe too well lying down or otherwise have pains of some sort. Congestive heart failure is one IIRC, gastroesophageal reflux disease is definitely another. In the days of yore, with little to no medical treatments available, one supposes some of these conditions might've affected a larger percentage of the population.

grant hutchison
2010-Nov-03, 04:36 PM
Even mild neck strain can be pretty disabling, & if you wake up with it, it will be your main worry!That depends on what else you have to worry about. I've woken with a nasty stiff neck to discover my tent was being blown down around me in a thunderstorm. I didn't think about my neck at all for the next hour, by which time it was feeling much better as a result of brisk mobilization. Early humans had lots of other worries, and were in any case used to sleeping with improvised or absent head support.


Do the other primates require head support when sleeping? Are the support requirements of the human cervical vertrebrae different from them?I doubt it, since humans don't require head support while sleeping.

Grant Hutchison

wd40
2010-Nov-03, 05:45 PM
If one sleeps on one's side, one needs head support. An arm will do, but it'll likely be numb on waking. Sleeping on the back without any head support is doable, but one can feel the neck is being strained, imo. Maybe you have thicker necks. Bearing in mind that a human turns over a dozen times in the course of an 8 hour sleep. I doubt that early men had the luxury of being able to splay out long on their fronts.

Gillianren
2010-Nov-03, 06:08 PM
I've woken with a stiff neck. A stiff back. Stiff knees. My ankles have been popping a lot lately for some reason. I have then gotten out of my camp bed, gotten up and dressed, and spent a full day up and doing. Indeed, every day of faire I wake with something stiff, and often everything. If you have to keep going, you keep going. And I strongly suspect my camp bed is a lot less comfortable than a gorilla's nest.

Swift
2010-Nov-03, 06:38 PM
If one sleeps on one's side, one needs head support. An arm will do, but it'll likely be numb on waking. Sleeping on the back without any head support is doable, but one can feel the neck is being strained, imo. Maybe you have thicker necks. Bearing in mind that a human turns over a dozen times in the course of an 8 hour sleep. I doubt that early men had the luxury of being able to splay out long on their fronts.
wd40,

I'm going to put my moderator hat on.

Your original question about how did early humans sleep has been answered multiple times by multiple people, yet you keep asking/stating the same thing over and over again. You also keep bring up other topics, like the evolution of Homo sapien and "the human spirit". I strongly suspect you are trying to advocate an non-mainstream idea about how modern humans came to be.

In any case, this thread is going around in circles. In your very next post, you will clearly state what your further intent in this thread is. What happens to this thread (open/closed/moved) depends on what you say. If you do not do this, the thread will be closed.

grant hutchison
2010-Nov-03, 06:42 PM
If one sleeps on one's side, one needs head support. An arm will do, but it'll likely be numb on waking. Sleeping on the back without any head support is doable, but one can feel the neck is being strained, imo. Maybe you have thicker necks. Bearing in mind that a human turns over a dozen times in the course of an 8 hour sleep. I doubt that early men had the luxury of being able to splay out long on their fronts.Lots of ways to sleep without a head support; some have been described for you, and you've now described some yourself. So why on earth do you think it's a problem? I've been sleeping on the ground, and on other people's floors, on and off for the last forty years: I alternate between prone, semi-prone and supine. Even with a head support, lying on your side is hopelessly uncomfortable if you're on a hard surface, because the bottom arm and shoulder are crushed. If you're in a position to build yourself a nest (dry bracken is good, in season), then you can sleep on your side and make your own head support: otherwise, you avoid that position, and you do so even in your sleep.

Grant Hutchison

Strange
2010-Nov-03, 06:53 PM
I doubt that early men had the luxury of being able to splay out long on their fronts.

What does that mean? Although, I would say that lying on my front is the least comfortable option available.

astromark
2010-Nov-03, 07:13 PM
I am with 'Swift.' WD40... Please clarify ?

wd40
2010-Nov-03, 07:55 PM
Bearing in mind that the first cutting tool-deficient homo sapiens must've all walked around with a huge bushy mass of uncut hair. Whether this aids sleeping by acting like a pillow, or hinders it, one would have to ask a 60s Hippy.

Now you can let the thread go to sleep & close it.

danscope
2010-Nov-03, 08:07 PM
Two stones tapped together will trim hair. It is the basic.... and effective method. A shard of obsidium is better, and lasts quite a while.
Sharp things have been in man's posession for a very long time.

PetersCreek
2010-Nov-03, 08:10 PM
In the absence of a clarifying statement, this thread is closed as promised. Please report this post to request/justify reopening.