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catloaf
2010-Jun-20, 03:26 AM
How come TIE fighters don't have astromech droids while all x-wings require one?

captain swoop
2010-Jun-20, 11:07 AM
Because they needed to get R2-D2 into the scene somehow?
I never saw the point of it. Why not just build the functions into the ship? How hard can it be?
Like the moving wings, what's all that about?

Moose
2010-Jun-20, 12:16 PM
The astromech isn't essential... until you intend to use the X-Wing's Hyperdrive. TIE fighters don't have one, and so don't require one.

As for why they prefer to use semi-sentient, cross-portable units rather than a more compact embedded design, no idea.

(But it does suggest the question: what about Vader's TIE prototype from ANH? Looks like his is using embedded hardware, or the thing's well recessed and out of Vader's hair.)

Jens
2010-Jun-20, 04:01 PM
Because they needed to get R2-D2 into the scene somehow?


I think this is the key issue. :)

I hope nobody thinks that those movie props are actually designed to be functional.

catloaf
2010-Jun-20, 04:10 PM
I hope nobody thinks that those movie props are actually designed to be functional.

Th-th-they aren't???

slang
2010-Jun-20, 09:32 PM
I never saw the point of it. Why not just build the functions into the ship? How hard can it be?

Like how we used to build comms into regular cars? I'm kinda glad we can take the cell phone out now. Luke can take his squeeking pocket calculator. :)

Buttercup
2010-Jun-20, 10:17 PM
Because X-Wings are made by/for the Rebel Alliance, whereas Tie Fighters are exclusively Empire vehicles?

Just a guess (without reading through the previous replies).

Ronald Brak
2010-Jun-21, 12:17 AM
They tried putting astromech droids in TIE fighters, but their weight kept causing them to rip through the cardboard. Sort of like what happens to the pilot when ever a TIE fighter gets soggy.

IsaacKuo
2010-Jun-21, 12:43 AM
They don't have astromech droids in TIE fighters because they aren't the droids they're looking for.

novaderrik
2010-Jun-21, 07:05 AM
the Empire is huge and their fighters are expendable.
the Rebellion is small and they need to keep their fighters as well maintained as possible..
of course, this brings up the question of why the Jedi needed droids in their ships before the Galactic Republic turned into the Galactic Empire. maybe the Jedi lived like paupers and needed the droids to keep the ships running.

captain swoop
2010-Jun-22, 07:18 PM
Highly trained pilots aren't 'expendable' even if ther fighters are.

Look at the Battle of Britain. German Pilots shot down were always lost if they were over the UK. RAF Pilots were in new aircraft and flying the same day.

SeanF
2010-Jun-23, 01:26 AM
Highly trained pilots aren't 'expendable' even if ther fighters are.
You're calling Imperial stormtroopers "highly trained"? ;)

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Jun-23, 02:33 AM
Highly trained pilots aren't 'expendable' even if ther fighters are.

Look at the Battle of Britain. German Pilots shot down were always lost if they were over the UK. RAF Pilots were in new aircraft and flying the same day.

Another example is in the Pacific theater of WWII. The Imperial Japanese Navy could not replace their aircraft carrier pilots faster than they lost them. By the time of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, they had four aircraft carriers but so few aviators that the carriers were basically just used as bait to lure the US Navy carriers away form the Philippines.

Nick

novaderrik
2010-Jun-23, 03:03 AM
You're calling Imperial stormtroopers "highly trained"? ;)

it takes a lot of skill to shoot that badly.

Ronald Brak
2010-Jun-23, 03:15 AM
A Star Wars fan told me that the reason Stormtroopers shot so badly in Star Wars was because they were under orders to let the Milenium Falcon escape. Their willingness to die to carry out this order demonstrates their unswerving devotion to duty.

But it appears their officers forgot to recind this order, leading to rather disasterous results for for them in the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

Personally I'm not sure stormtroopers can see out of their helmets. (Maybe their helmets are all equiped with joo janta peril sensitive lenses?)

KaiYeves
2010-Jun-24, 12:55 AM
You're calling Imperial stormtroopers "highly trained"? ;)
The TIE pilots aren't necessarily clones. Some are, I'm sure, but the "Academy" Luke talked about is where the pilots are trained.

Noclevername
2010-Jun-24, 01:12 AM
TIEs are cheap and mass-produced, and their pilots are expendable. The Rebellion, on the other hand, can't afford to waste resources-- they have to baby their machines with the best care available. When astromechs aren't around, some unlucky guy gets to suit up and hang out the back of the fighter with a wrench and a welding torch.

captain swoop
2010-Jun-24, 04:10 PM
Why are the Tie Fighters cheap and mass produced compared to the X wings? Why would they be considered expendable? If your available squadrons get shot down it doesn't matter how many Tie Fighters are in the factory or the depot. As far as the capabilites go, in the films they looked evenly matched. Tie Fighters if anything have the advantage in that they are smaller targets. Both have similarly feeble weapons and fire control systems and they seem to have the same performance in speed and rate of turn which is all that matters in a dogfight.

Jens
2010-Jun-25, 07:11 AM
And this is getting a bit off topic, but why do the spaceships get buffeted by turbulence when they're in outer space? And they do they bank their wings like fighter planes when they turn? And why do they all line up on the same plane even though they have artificial gravity?

korjik
2010-Jun-25, 03:04 PM
And this is getting a bit off topic, but why do the spaceships get buffeted by turbulence when they're in outer space?

Shockwaves can propagate in space. They will fade out quick, but they can propagate.


And they do they bank their wings like fighter planes when they turn?

It looks cool :)


And why do they all line up on the same plane even though they have artificial gravity?
So that your 2 dimensional surface evolved brain can simplify the situation. This applies to everyone involved, from the pilots and navigators to the SF people and the audience

NEOWatcher
2010-Jun-25, 03:25 PM
...And why do they all line up on the same plane even though they have artificial gravity?
Because they all think like Khan.

phunk
2010-Jun-25, 05:18 PM
I'd assume they bank to keep the g forces in a manageable direction.

Noclevername
2010-Jun-25, 06:05 PM
Why are the Tie Fighters cheap and mass produced compared to the X wings? Why would they be considered expendable? If your available squadrons get shot down it doesn't matter how many Tie Fighters are in the factory or the depot.

And the Empire has more available squadrons-- they have control of a whole galaxy's worth of resources. The Rebels have only what's provided by whoever they can convince to join them in a very risky cause. The Empire just doesn't concentrate their forces because they have so much territory to hold.

novaderrik
2010-Jun-25, 07:50 PM
I'd assume they bank to keep the g forces in a manageable direction.

and so they can see where they are turning by simply looking up.

captain swoop
2010-Jun-26, 10:07 AM
You only have the squadrons tha are available to your command, it doesn't matter if there are 500 squadrons scattered around your Empire and your factories can turn out 100 a day if it will take 6 weeks for them to arrive.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Jun-27, 09:50 AM
I'd assume they bank to keep the g forces in a manageable direction.
That'd be my take on why they bank too, from an engineering point of view it means you only need gravity control to be really strong in one axis and can save on the other two. Banking fighters don't make me think badly of movies or video games.
The bit that ruins immersion for me is when the turn is done and they roll back to align with some designated common horizontal plane.

I stopped playing Eve Online because of just that, the ships aren't spaceships, they're reskinned fighter planes and to me it looks irritatingly wrong.

toolazytotypemyname
2010-Jun-27, 09:23 PM
TIE fighters were described as short-range. "He's heading to that moon", etc.

At least one X-Wing flew by itself from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin.

Could that have something to do with it?

Noclevername
2010-Jun-28, 04:59 PM
You only have the squadrons tha are available to your command, it doesn't matter if there are 500 squadrons scattered around your Empire and your factories can turn out 100 a day if it will take 6 weeks for them to arrive.

Yes, that's why the Empire ultimately lost-- arrogance and poor planning.

novaderrik
2010-Jun-28, 05:07 PM
Yes, that's why the Empire ultimately lost-- arrogance and poor planning.

maybe, or maybe the empire was just too big to manage. they had too much territory to control, even with a virtually unlimited supply of clone troops and ships. get a few small rebel uprisings in strategic points across the galaxy, and they'd have to commit forces to that area to put it down, which would leave another area more open for a small rebel attack. the resistance just keeps pecking away and going into hiding afterwards.

Swift
2010-Jun-28, 08:59 PM
And this is getting a bit off topic, but why do the spaceships get buffeted by turbulence when they're in outer space? And they do they bank their wings like fighter planes when they turn? And why do they all line up on the same plane even though they have artificial gravity?
Because the movie shots are designed by people who are trying to make the shots appealing to audiences who are generally as ignorant of science and engineering as they are (members of BAUT being obvious exceptions to this).

Moose
2010-Jun-29, 01:10 PM
Babylon 5 got it mostly right, but the dogfights in ANH were considerably more dramatic, even to this science fan. I'm willing to trade a reasonable amount of technical accuracy to get my heart pumping a bit.

It's the big reason why things like Dooku's sail plane in Clone Wars didn't bother me any. I simply personal-retcon it so that the sail's inflated by an internal medium, not light pressure, and that the function is communication, not propulsion. It's Dooku's industrial strength Twi'lek "Movie" Channel and NASPOD, and he CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT IT! Oh, and World of StarWarcraft. Can't forget the broadband.

Noclevername
2010-Jun-29, 10:04 PM
maybe, or maybe the empire was just too big to manage. they had too much territory to control, even with a virtually unlimited supply of clone troops and ships. get a few small rebel uprisings in strategic points across the galaxy, and they'd have to commit forces to that area to put it down, which would leave another area more open for a small rebel attack. the resistance just keeps pecking away and going into hiding afterwards.

A contributing factor, yes. But the Galactic Republic lasted 25 thousand or so years without falling into that trap. (Granted, it took them a while to grow so big, but they still had a whole galaxy for a good portion of their reign.)

Solfe
2010-Jul-04, 04:26 AM
I would make sense to me that since you need an astromech droid to navigate hyperspace and a pilot to fight, then you want to keep them together all of the time. As an added bonus, droids can fly a little and fix ships and the pilot can freeform think and the fix the droid, it makes things more survivable.

Solfe

captain swoop
2010-Jul-04, 06:03 PM
So it's not possible to build a navigation system into the ship? ok.

Noclevername
2010-Jul-06, 07:59 PM
So it's not possible to build a navigation system into the ship? ok.

It is possible, and in some of the novels/comics there are such ships, but it's more convenient to make the repair system modular so it can be transfered from ship to ship, or to climb out to wherever the damage is. Also some pilots prefer working with the same astromech no matter which fighter they're assigned to.

Elukka
2010-Jul-06, 08:46 PM
A contributing factor, yes. But the Galactic Republic lasted 25 thousand or so years without falling into that trap. (Granted, it took them a while to grow so big, but they still had a whole galaxy for a good portion of their reign.)
The Republic was rather more flexible, though. It seemed to consist of more-or-less independent planets, the senators of which convened in the senate to vote on galactic issues. The Empire on the other hand had a direct command chain from Palpatine to the regional governors who were the dictators of their given area.

Noclevername
2010-Jul-07, 12:09 AM
The Republic was rather more flexible, though. It seemed to consist of more-or-less independent planets, the senators of which convened in the senate to vote on galactic issues. The Empire on the other hand had a direct command chain from Palpatine to the regional governors who were the dictators of their given area.

Exactly.

Ara Pacis
2010-Jul-08, 05:22 AM
The Astromechs are Swiss Army Droids, with lots of tools for multiple assignments on and outside of the ship. Any good officer needs an adjutant and the droids fill that part... as well as maintaining the ship. the best argument for their actual use in spacecraft was made in TPM where they worked on the exterior of the Queen's ship while under fire. I suppose they were kept for tradition.

As for the fighters orienting in particular directions, it might be noted that there often was a real horizon not far away and it might behoove them not to get caught in the upper atmosphere of a planet or crash onto the surface of "that's not a moon" or "We've gotta be able to get some kind of a reading on that shield, up or down" or wander into the turbolaser defense sectors.

captain swoop
2010-Jul-08, 11:00 PM
Or maybe because the space action in the first film was copied from old WW2 movies like 633 Squadron and Dam Busters.