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malm1987
2010-Jul-20, 09:54 PM
So, I've been thinking alot about this planet latelly (don't really know why) and started to think about how extremelly vague everything surrounding it's whereabouts and all really is. It's whole existence is based on one delirius mans drug-induced interpretations of a language that he doesn't understand, or have I missed something? Is this planet based on some scientific premises? Basically, what I wonder is what your thoughts on this is? Why do people seem so willing to find something that is sure to spell bad news for our continued existence?

Could it be something so simple as matrixing, i.e. people expect to see and thus they see it (even if it is non-existing)?

Finally, why do all Nibiru-followers refuse to see the logical falacies in a planet that has an orbital period of 3600 yet managed to not end the world about 3600 years ago?

Swift
2010-Jul-20, 10:02 PM
There are lots and lots of threads on this topic if you search around.


It's whole existence is based on one delirius mans drug-induced interpretations of a language that he doesn't understand, or have I missed something?
I've never heard that explanation, but I might have missed it.


Is this planet based on some scientific premises?
No, none at all.


Basically, what I wonder is what your thoughts on this is?
It is complete and utter nonsense.


Why do people seem so willing to find something that is sure to spell bad news for our continued existence?

That is a complex issue (not just for Planet X, but for many conspiracies). There are many reasons and they differ from one believer to another. As I said, there have been some extensive past discussions about the reasons. Check out the CT forum.

malm1987
2010-Jul-20, 10:37 PM
I'm sorry that i didn't think about using the search option, ofcourse that shoul have been my absolutelly first action. So, sorry for that. The person I was refering to was Sitchin and his "unique" interpretations of Summeric writings, but perhaps he wasn't first to suggest the existence of this planet? I've checked out the CT-discussions about Niburu, but couldn't find the answer to one question. How would a close encounter with a planet of that portrayed size manifest itself on us? Would we be able to survive it by any chance?

mugaliens
2010-Jul-20, 10:59 PM
It's whole existence is based on one delirius mans drug-induced interpretations of a language that he doesn't understand, or have I missed something?

No, the drug connection explains a lot.


Is this planet based on some scientific premises?

No.


Basically, what I wonder is what your thoughts on this is? Why do people seem so willing to find something that is sure to spell bad news for our continued existence?

One of these days, I suspect we'll fine the "paranoid" gene which causes everyone a bit of irrational fear and results in the need to have a belief in something greater than themselves, if not some universal "good-guy, bad-guy" conflict.


Could it be something so simple as matrixing, i.e. people expect to see and thus they see it (even if it is non-existing)?

One of our greatest tools as animals is our ability to recognize complex patterns. One of our greatest detriments is our belief that this talent is infallible and will never recognize patterns which do not actually exist. If you'd like to see prima facia evidence of this at work, just ask your average Vegas gambler to explain their "system" to you.


Finally, why do all Nibiru-followers refuse to see the logical falacies in a planet that has an orbital period of 3600 yet managed to not end the world about 3600 years ago?

Pluto's and Neptune's orbits overlap, yet they haven't collided because they're locked in step due to orbital dynamics. The same could be true of Nibiru, though with a 3,600 year period, it's highly doubtful. However, they would have had roughly a million orbits to get into step with one another. Still, a planet with a 3,600 year orbit would leave orbital artifacts in the orbits of the other planets, and we just don't see that, so...

No. It doesn't exist.

Nowhere Man
2010-Jul-20, 11:12 PM
Pluto's and Neptune's orbits intersect, yet they haven't collided because they're locked in step due to orbital dynamics.
No, the orbits don't intersect. It just looks like they do because of the limitations of two-dimensional projections. At the points where Pluto's orbit crosses Neptune's (as seen from "above"), it is quite a distance away in the "up" direction.

Fred

Van Rijn
2010-Jul-20, 11:46 PM
The person I was refering to was Sitchin and his "unique" interpretations of Summeric writings, but perhaps he wasn't first to suggest the existence of this planet?


It depends on what you mean by "this planet." If you're talking about the idea of a planet called "Nibiru" with an extremely eccentric orbit visiting the inner solar system every 3600 years, it seemed to start with Sitchin, and others more recently latched onto the name and the orbital period for their end of the world ideas (the earlier 2003 version, and the current 2012 version). Their versions tend to be a bit different from Sitchin's (he apparently has said his version isn't going to visit in 2012).

If you're talking about the term "Planet X," that's been around for far longer than Sitchin, and originally was only meant to refer to an unknown planet, not one that's supposed to hurt us. (For instance, there's an old book about the search for Pluto that was titled, in part, "The Search for Planet X.")



I've checked out the CT-discussions about Niburu, but couldn't find the answer to one question. How would a close encounter with a planet of that portrayed size manifest itself on us?


The CT discusions don't get that far, as nobody has been able to present specific trajectory information, mass, and size for a claimed "Nibiru."

Swift
2010-Jul-21, 01:48 AM
How would a close encounter with a planet of that portrayed size manifest itself on us? Would we be able to survive it by any chance?
As Van Rijn said, no one's "theories" have gotten specific enough to say exactly, but if a planet sized body, even as "small" as Mars, was crossing through the inner solar system, it would almost certainly have significant effects on the orbits of other planets, and not just Earth. The fact that we don't see such things is further proof of its lack of existence.

mugaliens
2010-Jul-21, 06:00 AM
No, the orbits don't intersect. It just looks like they do because of the limitations of two-dimensional projections. At the points where Pluto's orbit crosses Neptune's (as seen from "above"), it is quite a distance away in the "up" direction.

Fred

I should have used the word "overlap" to avoid the confusion and correction.

Fixed.

A.DIM
2010-Jul-21, 07:30 PM
If I might hazzard an answer or two...


So, I've been thinking alot about this planet latelly (don't really know why) and started to think about how extremelly vague everything surrounding it's whereabouts and all really is.

According to Sitchin, IIRC, it should be found some 30deg below the ecliptic towards Sag.


It's whole existence is based on one delirius mans drug-induced interpretations of a language that he doesn't understand, or have I missed something?

I'd have to say you missed something.
I spent years reading Sitchin's work, and the works he draws from. I've researched the languages of the Ancient Near East, and I've found his interpretations to be largely in agreeance with mainstream scholars.
And from where does the "drug induced" allegation come?


Is this planet based on some scientific premises?

Well, there are some scientists currently searching for a large perturbing body in the outer system...


Basically, what I wonder is what your thoughts on this is?

My thoughts are that most people who've heard about Sitchin's Nibiru know of it not by reading the material but by second, third (or worse) hand sources, and rarely do they delve further into The Earth Chronicles.


Finally, why do all Nibiru-followers refuse to see the logical falacies in a planet that has an orbital period of 3600 yet managed to not end the world about 3600 years ago?

To the best of my recollection it was never said to end the world with each pass; that, I believe, comes from the doomsayers who've latched onto the idea.

FWIW...

Van Rijn
2010-Jul-21, 09:55 PM
Well, there are some scientists currently searching for a large perturbing body in the outer system...


That is not relevant to the discussion of a planet claimed to have a highly eccentric 3600 year orbit, entering the inner solar system.

A very eccentric orbit isn't stable, so the idea of a planet in a 3600 year orbit coming near the sun doesn't make sense. The period of the orbit would tend to vary substantially, and in a few million years (let alone a few billion) it would have a dramatically different orbit, and very likely be leaving the solar system altogether.

On the other side, as Swift mentioned, it would perturb other planets in the solar system. This gets more extreme with larger assumed masses. Things like the idea of a brown dwarf would have scattered the planets of the outer solar system.

In short, the idea doesn't make physical sense.


According to Sitchin, IIRC, it [Nibiru] should be found some 30deg below the ecliptic towards Sag.

But no such planet has been found.

malm1987
2010-Jul-21, 09:56 PM
Hi A.DIM, ofcourse your oppinions are as welcome as the next guys. Personally, I find this whole subject intrigueing, albeit sometimes a bit far-fetched. I appolagize for the allegations against Sitchin, I was purely writing what I had heard about him (hallucinogenic user?). I think that perhaps there are something to his work, but i still question the credibility of his research (for several reasons).

But, as I said, it's always nice to get an input that goes against the mainstream. Although perhaps this whole discussion belongs in another part of the forum?

As for the claim that scientists search for a perturbing body in the outer reaches of our solar system, do you have any source on that? I remember that I've read it somewhere, but I can't seem to find it (perhaps discover magazine).

Although I find this whole subject interresting, and frankly even a bit disturbing, I must say that I haven't seen any kind of evidence whatsoever regarding this planet. I mean, lets for arguments sake say that there was a planet with an orbital period of 3600 years, give or take a few, then how would it be able to sustain that trajectory for two consecutive runs? All calculations I have seen suggest an highly eccentric, likewise highly unstable orbit

Anyhow, I thought I'd ask you, that actually have read his books, didn't he predict the arival of Nibiru to take place sometime around 2084? I've heard somewhere that he didn't predict Nibiru to come even close in 2012, and that he more or less claim to not want to be affiliated with the doomsayers of 2012.

Swift
2010-Jul-21, 10:02 PM
But, as I said, it's always nice to get an input that goes against the mainstream. Although perhaps this whole discussion belongs in another part of the forum?

Wisely said. A reminder to everyone that the answers in Q&A must be the mainstream answers, even for topics that involve ATM ideas.

Murphy
2010-Jul-23, 02:35 PM
I spent years reading Sitchin's work, and the works he draws from. I've researched the languages of the Ancient Near East, and I've found his interpretations to be largely in agreeance with mainstream scholars.
Huh? Are serious?

I've never read this guy's stuff, but from the brief overview on Wikipedia (Zecharia Sitchin article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)), I think anyone would conclude that his theories are not anywhere close to mainstream scholars.

He believes the ancient Sumerians were Aliens, <redacted>! I very much doubt that most Sumerian scholars would agree with him there. Sounds to me that he's just another nutter like von Däniken, etc.

R.A.F.
2010-Jul-23, 02:51 PM
I've never read this guy's stuff, but from the brief overview on Wikipedia (Zecharia Sitchin article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)), I think anyone would conclude that his theories are not anywhere close to mainstream scholars.

Of course not...it's just an attempt to make Sitchin "look" mainstream.

Swift
2010-Jul-23, 03:51 PM
He believes the ancient Sumerians were Aliens, <redacted>! I very much doubt that most Sumerian scholars would agree with him there. Sounds to me that he's just another nutter like von Däniken, etc.
Murphy,

Please watch the language. And please watch the tone.

malm1987
2010-Jul-23, 10:26 PM
Huh? Are serious?

I've never read this guy's stuff, but from the brief overview on Wikipedia (Zecharia Sitchin article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)), I think anyone would conclude that his theories are not anywhere close to mainstream scholars.

He believes the ancient Sumerians were Aliens, <redacted>! I very much doubt that most Sumerian scholars would agree with him there. Sounds to me that he's just another nutter like von Däniken, etc.

On some level, not to offend A.DIM here, I seriously question the credibility of the studies of the language you claim to have undertaken. As far as I know, Murphy is correct in saying that Sitchins interpretations is as far from mainstream as you could possibly get. If you arrive at the same interpretations as Sitchin my guess would be that you didn't pay all that much attention to learning the language, and that perhaps your knowledge is coloured by what you've read under the several years you claimed to have studied Sitchins work. At least that seems to be the case since even I, that only have a basic level of understanding of cuneiform is able to point out some errors that he made in his interpretations.

Anyhow, as said earlier, the whole Sitchin-topic is better suited for a discussion in the ATM part of the forum. I think it's safe to say, based on what I've read on this forum, that we shouldn't expect a visit from this magical planet anytime soon. I do however have a question that borderlines this subject, the results from the WISE discoveries. Does anyone know when the complete results will be available to the public? I've read somewhere that they had finished the search and that they found quite a few new asteroids and brown dwarfs, but were any of them in close vicinity of earth?

Swift
2010-Jul-24, 02:51 AM
I do however have a question that borderlines this subject, the results from the WISE discoveries. Does anyone know when the complete results will be available to the public? I've read somewhere that they had finished the search and that they found quite a few new asteroids and brown dwarfs, but were any of them in close vicinity of earth?
I don't know, but I bet it is covered in this thread from space exploration (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/96814-NASA-s-WISE-ready-to-survey-whole-sky) and this thread from Astronomy (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/106071-quot-Hundreds-of-brown-dwarfs-found-quot) (which is more on the findings).

Nereid
2010-Jul-24, 02:59 PM
On some level, not to offend A.DIM here, I seriously question the credibility of the studies of the language you claim to have undertaken. As far as I know, Murphy is correct in saying that Sitchins interpretations is as far from mainstream as you could possibly get. If you arrive at the same interpretations as Sitchin my guess would be that you didn't pay all that much attention to learning the language, and that perhaps your knowledge is coloured by what you've read under the several years you claimed to have studied Sitchins work. At least that seems to be the case since even I, that only have a basic level of understanding of cuneiform is able to point out some errors that he made in his interpretations.

Anyhow, as said earlier, the whole Sitchin-topic is better suited for a discussion in the ATM part of the forum. I think it's safe to say, based on what I've read on this forum, that we shouldn't expect a visit from this magical planet anytime soon. I do however have a question that borderlines this subject, the results from the WISE discoveries. Does anyone know when the complete results will be available to the public? I've read somewhere that they had finished the search and that they found quite a few new asteroids and brown dwarfs, but were any of them in close vicinity of earth?(bold added)

There is a WISE announcement (sorry, I can't find the link just now) to the effect that the non-moving body discoveries (etc) will be released in April, 2011. Fully reduced results - catalogues etc - are planned for release six months after that. Comet and asteroid discoveries have been announced in the usual way (are you familiar with astronomical telegrams? the Minor Planet Center?).

Robert Tulip
2010-Jul-25, 03:13 PM
from the brief overview on Wikipedia (Zecharia Sitchin article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)), I think anyone would conclude that his theories are not anywhere close to mainstream scholars.


Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin#Criticisms)states: "The scenario outlined by Sitchin, with Nibiru returning to the inner solar system regularly every 3,600 years, implies an orbit with a semi-major axis of 235 Astronomical Units, extending from the asteroid belt to twelve times farther beyond the sun than Pluto. "Elementary perturbation theory indicates that, under the most favorable circumstances of avoiding close encounters with other planets, no body with such an eccentric orbit would keep the same period for two consecutive passages. Within twelve orbits the object would be either ejected or converted to a short period object."

As per the OP, it is intriguing why this form of empirical critique is not convincing for people who continue to give credence to writers like Sitchin. There is obviously a romance (and maybe money) in making up fantastic revelatory explanations of the cosmos, for an audience who don't want to let facts get in the way of a good story. The story of Nibiru involving Babylonian Gods Marduk and Tiamat has just the right mix of forgotten wisdom, defiance of rational mainstream, and warning of apocalyptic calamity to have an enduring appeal in popular culture.

malm1987
2010-Jul-25, 05:19 PM
I don't know, but I bet it is covered in this thread from space exploration (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/96814-NASA-s-WISE-ready-to-survey-whole-sky) and this thread from Astronomy (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/106071-quot-Hundreds-of-brown-dwarfs-found-quot) (which is more on the findings).

Thank you very much, both threads were really interresting. I must say that I look forward to see the results from WISE, I think that we are bound to find quite a few unexpected objects out there (hopefully not many more objects like Apophis=).

malm1987
2010-Jul-25, 05:24 PM
(bold added)

There is a WISE announcement (sorry, I can't find the link just now) to the effect that the non-moving body discoveries (etc) will be released in April, 2011. Fully reduced results - catalogues etc - are planned for release six months after that. Comet and asteroid discoveries have been announced in the usual way (are you familiar with astronomical telegrams? the Minor Planet Center?).

Thanks for the info, looking forward to see the results of this extensive survey. Unfortunatelly I'm not familiar with astronomical telegrams or the minor planet center. I do however remember reading somewhere that around 25000 new asteroids were found, but I can't remember the source of that claim (could have been NASA science page). Other than that article I haven't heard much about it at all.

Nereid
2010-Jul-25, 05:51 PM
Thanks for the info, looking forward to see the results of this extensive survey. Unfortunatelly I'm not familiar with astronomical telegrams or the minor planet center. I do however remember reading somewhere that around 25000 new asteroids were found, but I can't remember the source of that claim (could have been NASA science page). Other than that article I haven't heard much about it at all.
Central Bureau of Astronomical Telegrams (http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/iau/cbat.html) (CBAT); Minor Planet Center (http://www.minorplanetcenter.org/iau/mpc.html) (MPC).

From the WISE Mission website (http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/index.html):

WISE will make a preliminary release of data taken during the first half of the survey six months after the end of on-orbit data acqusition. For the current lifetime estimate of 10 months, and launch date of Dec 7, the first data release would be in April 2011. The final data release will be 11 months later in March 2012 according to current estimates.

jrkeller
2010-Jul-25, 06:02 PM
There are plenty of gullible people around and there's money to be made off those marks.

Roger E. Moore
2010-Jul-26, 01:37 AM
...and there's money to be made off those marks.
And we arrive at the core of the issue. :)

korjik
2010-Jul-26, 02:28 AM
And we arrive at the core of the issue. :)

For $12 and a SASE, of course. :)

Roger E. Moore
2010-Jul-26, 01:56 PM
For $12 and a SASE, of course. :)
$12? My conspiracies are worth a lot more than that!

A.DIM
2010-Jul-27, 01:52 PM
Hi Van Rijn.
Let me explain some why I "refuse to let go"...


That is not relevant to the discussion of a planet claimed to have a highly eccentric 3600 year orbit, entering the inner solar system.

To me it's most relevant as we first must find it, if it's there, and then we cna determine its orbit (and whether it's relevant to Sitchin's work).

I should ask though, is the asteroid belt considered part of the inner solar system or more a boundary between inner and outer?


A very eccentric orbit isn't stable, so the idea of a planet in a 3600 year orbit coming near the sun doesn't make sense. The period of the orbit would tend to vary substantially, and in a few million years (let alone a few billion) it would have a dramatically different orbit, and very likely be leaving the solar system altogether.

Eccentric orbits aren't unusual, inside or outside our solar system, and while I'm skeptical we can speak with certitude as to their longevity or stability, I agree such a scenario seems highly improbable.
However ...


On the other side, as Swift mentioned, it would perturb other planets in the solar system. This gets more extreme with larger assumed masses. Things like the idea of a brown dwarf would have scattered the planets of the outer solar system.
In short, the idea doesn't make physical sense.

I find the BD / binary scenario as more plausible, especially if it isn't the companion which approaches the asteroid belt but one of its satellites. Also, if this hypothetical body approaches from below the ecliptic, some 30deg, and only intersected the orbital plane of our system at the asteroid belt, around 3AU, I wonder how much, or less, its effects would be observed? Theretoo we see objects with such eccentric orbits (eg. Sedna, CR105 et al, even Pluto and Halley's comet). There's also a planet on its side out there and several moons thought to be captured objects, and some retrograde motions as well. How much physical sense can be gleaned from these?


But no such planet has been found.

Indeed.
Although it might've already bveen catalogued, just not identified as such; we'd need to know its proper motion, no?

A.DIM
2010-Jul-27, 02:06 PM
Let me add that I've never suggested Sitchin 100% accurate; I myself have discovered a few discrepancies (nothing damning to his thesis as a whole).

Yes, his interpretation of the Enuma Elish as astronomical text describing the formation of the solar system is ATM, mostly (some scholars agree it could be a record of some cosmic event), but his interpretations of ancient near eastern languages and most texts differ little from the mainstream. There are only a few certain words, as pointed out by critic M. Heiser, where Sitchin's interpretations differ.
None the less, in the end, for me, it comes down to discovering an additional member of our solar system first, a large body, whether BD / binary scenario or large planet.
Only if and when this happens will Sitchin's thesis become more plausible reality. As it is, I consider it the best historical science fiction to be read.
:)

R.A.F.
2010-Jul-27, 02:11 PM
In short, the idea doesn't make physical sense.

That's because you are looking for evidence that Sitchin's Nuburu is real, and there is none.

This isn't about evidence, it's about belief.

R.A.F.
2010-Jul-27, 02:45 PM
...his interpretations of ancient near eastern languages and most texts differ little from the mainstream.

I must have missed the mainstream "announcement" confirming that visitors from space enslaved our ancestors to mine gold to use on their planet as an atmospheric "shield".

come on, A.DIM...

Swift
2010-Jul-27, 04:37 PM
Since the OP's question seems to have been answered, and this is now turning into a Sitchin debate, this thread is closed. Report my post if you have compelling reasons to reopen this thread.