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View Full Version : Why isn't donor kebab an instant food poisoning epidemic?



JohnD
2010-Aug-15, 12:30 PM
All,
Don't know about the US, but in the UK donor kebab is as popular for a late night snack/meal as fish and chips or a MacDonald's. I'm talking of the cylinder of meat on a spit that rotates before banks of gas or electric grills. The proprietor shaves off slices from the lump and you get them in a roll or a pitta bread, with usually some flaccid salad.
In the UK, the meat is "mechanically recovered", full of fillers and other non-meat ingredients and tastes vile. In Turkey, where the idea comes from, it should be built up on the spit with strips of good quality meat, and nothing else, and may be a delicacy - I can't say.

But either way, the cylinder of meat must weigh, 50kgs? It's four or five feet long and a foot and a half thick. It is kept warm for days at a time - they can't sell all that meat in one night - so how is it that the appearance of a donor shop in a town isn't a public health disaster?
I'll be kind and say that I have the greatest confidence in the hygiene of donor shops in general, though just looking at some makes you doubt that. But just one bacterium in a mass of warm meat will multiply, until the whole thing is a bacteriological WMD. I can't believe that they sterilise donor before it's cooked.

AFAIK, donor shops aren't a health risk, usually, so why not?

John

cjameshuff
2010-Aug-15, 03:42 PM
But either way, the cylinder of meat must weigh, 50kgs? It's four or five feet long and a foot and a half thick. It is kept warm for days at a time - they can't sell all that meat in one night - so how is it that the appearance of a donor shop in a town isn't a public health disaster?
I'll be kind and say that I have the greatest confidence in the hygiene of donor shops in general, though just looking at some makes you doubt that. But just one bacterium in a mass of warm meat will multiply, until the whole thing is a bacteriological WMD. I can't believe that they sterilise donor before it's cooked.

Did you think cooking was just for flavor? One of the primary purposes of cooking is to sterilize food. This or any other type of roast is kept too hot for bacteria to survive. Keeping food hot (stews, slow roasts, etc) is a very old way to preserve it for short periods, especially useful in hot climates where it would quickly spoil at ambient temperature.

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-15, 05:09 PM
Döner, doner, or donner.
A donor kebab involves frying human kidneys which have been donated for transplant, and is generally frowned upon.

The meat, already on its spit, is taken out of refrigeration and set up when the restaurant opens, and is used during a single afternoon/evening, with each successive layer being roasted as soon as it is exposed by the removal of the previous layer. "Keeping it warm for days" would indeed be a potent health hazard.

Grant Hutchison

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-15, 05:28 PM
Grant is right.

The döner is generally prepared in a meat packing company and is kept *frozen* until used. The döner is put on the grill while still frozen and is only used for one day. Putting a used döner back up the next day is forbidden by law, whatever that's worth. In fact, busy grills go through a few a day, so when you see it turning there in the evening, it doesn't mean it's been there since early morning.

There are many different combinations. The Turkish (döner) and arabic (shoarma) versions usually use lamb and beef or chicken, while the Greeks (gyros) use a mix of pork and beef.

Once place near where I live (Greek) makes their own using fresh meat, adds on to the top during the daym and cuts from the bottom, pushing the rest down as they go.

There were a few scandals one or two years ago, but that put the focus of attention on them. The problem was the price war. If you want to sell a döner for EUR 1,20, you have to make shortcuts somewhere, so they were using a percentage of rotten or nearly rotten meat.

Btw, rumor has it that the form of döner we know today, i.e. the hand held version with the bread etc., does not come from Turkey, but from Turks in Berlin.

captain swoop
2010-Aug-15, 06:05 PM
Where are you going if your Doner is "mechanically recovered", full of fillers and other non-meat ingredients and tastes vile? It must be the only takeaway in the UK selling them.
I have never come across a Doner like that. They are built up with pieces of lamb and spices. Look at one before it is cooked, you can see the individual pieces of meat.

Kleindoofy is right, the Doner in the form we know was evolved outside Turkey.

JohnD
2010-Aug-15, 11:21 PM
"Pieces of lamb and spices" Yes, I know that how it SHOULD be done.
But I'm going to one that probably has the same doners as yours, Capt.Swoop.
"Dominic Jolivet, manager of Velis Doner Kebab Manufacturers, one of the biggest makers in the UK, explains that the lamb breasts and offcuts it uses are "put into a mixer and made into something like a meat emulsion: you're massaging the meat. Then you roll it into small balls, bind them together with 'lamb skin' - that's actually the membrane from the lamb cuts - and then build it up into a cone".
And
" Jolivet says that less scrupulous [less scrupulous? Than what? Like a lion is less vegetarian than a lamb?] kebab makers will use cheaper meat, which is much higher fat. They'll probably add emulsifiers and rusk, and preservatives, too"
Even
""You can't get the traditional doner kebab anywhere in Britain," Keman Tokat, the sales director at another doner maker, SMP, told me sadly."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/oct/06/food.foodanddrink

Thank you too, for the word about health regulation on doner kebab (Thank you Grant, for the spelling lesson)
I read that frozen meat preparations such as doner meat must be maintained at -18°C during transport.
(Article 3 & Annex IIII, Section V, Chapter iii (2) of EC Regulation 853/2004)
Fine.
So the doner is put up on the spit, frozen - it must be, it would take days for such a large mass to defrost.
In which case I'm really not convinced by cjameshuff's words about roasting meat - this 'roast' will be hot on thre urface and frozen in the middle, for a long time, so somewhere in there its ideal for the bugs.

And I'm not convinced of that a doner is never used for more than one day:
"Do not attempt to use any uncooked kebab left over from the previous day unless it was placed directly into the freezer once cooking had stopped in order to be rapidly cooled down overnight. It is important to ensure that your freezer is capable of maintaining a temperature of –18şC when the kebab is cooling down"
Eastbourne District Council, Guide to food hygiene: http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/business/food/hygiene/kebabs/
This advice is repeated on several other Council sites.
So, that lump of 'meat' is heated until the range of temperatures through it must include the Goldilocks Zone for bacteria, somewhere.
It is then allowed to cool again, prolonging that Goldilocks time, frozen which does not kill bacteria so that thye have ahead start the next day, and put up again.

OK, there aren't E.coli or salmonella outbreaks every week (just every so oftne). I'm sticking to fish and chips for my post-pub meal.
If I can find a chippy open.

Jon

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-16, 12:07 AM
(Thank you Grant, for the spelling lesson)My pleasure. It's such small services that brighten my days.

Grant Hutchison

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Aug-16, 02:07 AM
Döner, doner, or donner.
A donor kebab involves frying human kidneys which have been donated for transplant, and is generally frowned upon.
...

I thought a "Donner kebab" would be what these people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party) ate.

Nick

schlaugh
2010-Aug-16, 02:20 AM
Going back to the OP, and has already been mentioned, constant application off heat (hopefully above 140 F) helps to ward off bacterial buildup, along with proper refrigeration when not cooking. Also, based on the kebabs (and similar gyros) that I've eaten, the meat contains a lot of salt which also prevents bacterial growth. And salt of course is one of humanity's oldest food preservatives.

Trebuchet
2010-Aug-16, 02:47 AM
I thought a "Donner kebab" would be what these people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party) ate.

Nick

Hey! One of those people was a relative of mine! (Brother of an ancestor, IIRC.) Don't know if he ate anyone but he was a survivor, and therefore not eaten.

The Doner Kebab sounds somewhat interesting. I've never seen anything like that in the USA, although some of the large beef roasts they carve away at all night come somewhat close in concept.

Nick Theodorakis
2010-Aug-16, 02:49 AM
Is this the same as what Greeks (in the US, anyway) call a "gyro"?

Nick

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-16, 03:01 AM
In and of themself, döner, gyros, and shoarma are more or less the same thing, as I posted above.

However, other that what is being discussed here, the meat is served on a plate with other commodities.

The special thing being spoken of here is a way of serving it in a large pita style roll with various vegetables and some cacik (tzatziki).

Here's the end product:

http://www.nrw-fun-clan.de/images/news-pics/388_1269034388.jpg

And here's the döner on the spit:

http://www.schlemmer-kebap.de/images/bilder/doener_istanbul_kl.jpg

Getting between a hungry person and his döner can be very dangerous.

Jens
2010-Aug-16, 03:08 AM
I thought a "Donner kebab" would be what these people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party) ate.


Well, I thought it was what the elves had for lunch when one Santa's reindeer got a little bit uppity.

NEOWatcher
2010-Aug-16, 12:19 PM
Is this the same as what Greeks (in the US, anyway) call a "gyro"?
From what I can tell, the sandwich is "gyro" but the chunk of meat is "kebab".

I've never seen anything like that in the USA, although some of the large beef roasts they carve away at all night come somewhat close in concept.
Try just about any greek restaurant, but it has to be a more traditional busy one. Otherwise you'll end up with something made of this pre sliced stuff (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HCR8WM03L._SL500_AA300_.jpg).
While the overall taste and ingredients may be the same, it still comes out like a sliced chunk of meatloaf. The roasting of the real thing with the different texture is more like the tasty crusted outer layer of a grilled meat. Much different (and better IMO) if you're into textures.

Strange
2010-Aug-16, 12:22 PM
There was a radio program about the doner kebab last week. There are a limited number of manufacturers. They spoke to one of them (who had the same line about "some other unscrupulous companies...") who ship 4 tons of doner per day! Even the best of these are made from meat that has no other market. Some will use mechanically recovered meat and other fillers to keep the price down.

On the other hand, there are a (very) few kebab shops who make their own from high quality meat and fresh spices. And have people travelling hundreds of miles to get one.

They also went to Turkey to sample the Iskender kebab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0skender_kebap) which was claimed to be the "original".

Edit: Here you go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t83lm

Gillianren
2010-Aug-16, 04:17 PM
Actually, Treb, there were gyros being sold at faire this year. Dave the Crepe Guy is expanding, it seems. However, since I don't like gyros, I don't know if he goes with the traditional giant spit-o'-meat or has it pre-sliced, which sounds to me much more convenient for faire use, for all it might not be how it's done in restaurants and tradition.

BigDon
2010-Aug-16, 06:34 PM
And following up Gillians post, I had my first cut off a spit gyro in San Diego back around '81.

Haven't found one as good since then and now I know why. All the other places weren't greek gyros.

Thanks, once again, for the education.

JohnD
2010-Aug-16, 09:41 PM
It was a basic rule in Mum's kitchen, and now in my partner's, that frozen food cannot be frozen safely again.
I can't find a Hygiene regulation that says this, and I recognise that a domestic freezer may not go down to -18C (C above), but the reason is that freezing only slows or stops bacterial growth. It does not kill bugs. Freeze twice, and the bugs already infecting your meat, that may not be pathogenic in number, have a head start and rapidly become so.
But hygene regs promulgated by local councils in the UK PROMOTE this practice!

schlaugh mentions the excess of salt in doner. Gosh-right, as we say on this board! In the UK, Trading Standards officers have found doners with up to 22% fat, and up to 12g of salt - that's two heaped teaspoons, double the recommended daily intake and Hampshire county council found that doner kebabs .... contained 140g of fat, twice the maximum daily allowance for women, and the calorific equivalent to a wine glass of cooking oil. (in one serving).

But that's not my concern. I posted here a scientific Q. in epidemiology and bacteriology. Best answers so far are the salt, and a rapid turnaround (!) that gets the stuff down necks before it goes septic.
In the dining room at my work, I see good catering practice in action. Sandwiches are enclosed, kept in a cool cabinet, are datestamped and discarded when over due. The foods on the serve-yourself salad counter are the only foods that are left out in the open, except for fruit, and I see the staff using temperature probes on the bowls of potatoes in mayonnaise, etc. to ensure that they never get warm. I also see them wearing disposable gloves to handle food - anyone got a picture of a doner chef wearing gloves? Google hasn't!

John

JOhn

Garrison
2010-Aug-16, 09:55 PM
The reason that Doner kebabs don't cause a food poisoning epidemic in the UK is obviously that alcohol kills food poisoning bacteria and since the majority of them appear to be sold after closing time...:)

swampyankee
2010-Aug-16, 11:51 PM
Given the primary English meaning of "donor" and "kebab" being cooked food-on-a-stick, I keep getting this rather disturbing image.

This mystery meat sounds vaguely like the headcheese version of a gyro or shawarma. I think I'll stay away from it ;)

pzkpfw
2010-Aug-17, 12:11 AM
... I also see them wearing disposable gloves to handle food - anyone got a picture of a doner chef wearing gloves? Google hasn't! ...

Around here you'll often see a small bar-b-que set up outside a hardware store or other, selling sausages in bread as fund raising for a school or sports team or whatever.

The servers wear these gloves. All good.

...and then use the same gloved hands to handle the money, the tools, the stall etc.

Not so good.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 12:33 AM
This mystery meat sounds vaguely like the headcheese version of a gyro or shawarma. I think I'll stay away from it ;)

Frankly, it's the same sort of thing which goes into sausage. (And, yes, "kebab" in this instance is "gyro.") "Mechanically-separated meat" sounds alarming, but it is actual meat. Trust me. There are foods routinely made out of worse. Don't even ask about chorizo. Or haggis.

swampyankee
2010-Aug-17, 12:45 AM
Frankly, it's the same sort of thing which goes into sausage. (And, yes, "kebab" in this instance is "gyro.") "Mechanically-separated meat" sounds alarming, but it is actual meat. Trust me. There are foods routinely made out of worse. Don't even ask about chorizo. Or haggis.

I've actually seen sausage being made, and still eat it ;). And I've seen recipes for haggis. I haven't (intentionally) eaten offal for about 40 years. I don't intend to restart now.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-17, 12:53 AM
... I think I'll stay away from it ;)
That's the best way to miss out on a lot of the good things in life.

I suggest independent empirical döner research instead of relying on unconfirmed blog entries.

Almost any food item can be described in a very unappetizing way. Shall I start with milk or eggs? ;)

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 01:36 AM
I've actually seen sausage being made, and still eat it ;). And I've seen recipes for haggis. I haven't (intentionally) eaten offal for about 40 years. I don't intend to restart now.

"Mechanically-separated meat" isn't offal.

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 01:52 AM
And I've seen recipes for haggis.Oh, the horror.

Grant Hutchison

Jens
2010-Aug-17, 04:44 AM
From what I can tell, the sandwich is "gyro" but the chunk of meat is "kebab".


Just as a clarification for anybody interested in the etymology, "gyro" or "gyros" is Greek for "turn," as in gyroscope. The Turkish original is donar kebab, where "kebab" means "meat" (as in sheesh kebab) while "donar" is "turn." So the gyros means donar. Apparently the Greek is a calque from the Turkish.

CJSF
2010-Aug-17, 04:47 AM
I'd say that since people *aren't* dying by the thousands after eating the things, that obviously it isn't a big deal then, is it?

CJSF

Daggerstab
2010-Aug-17, 06:10 AM
Ground meat? Seriously? And people eat that? Remind me never to buy a döner west of Croatia...

Glom
2010-Aug-17, 07:04 AM
The question doesn't consider one important point. It's that it is consumed by people who've had a few and alcohol is a disinfectant. Secondly, any food poisoning would probably be indistinguishable from the hangover.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 07:17 AM
Not universally by any stretch.

Scriitor
2010-Aug-17, 08:54 AM
Certainly not universal here in Australia. Kebabs are just about the most popular fast food available, eaten by bogans young and old, day and night.

Strange
2010-Aug-17, 09:21 AM
Just in the UK, maybe.

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 10:38 AM
Just as a clarification for anybody interested in the etymology, "gyro" or "gyros" is Greek for "turn," as in gyroscope. The Turkish original is donar kebab, where "kebab" means "meat" (as in sheesh kebab) while "donar" is "turn." So the gyros means donar. Apparently the Greek is a calque from the Turkish.In one of those marvellous twists of mistaken construction, it seems to have become common in informal medical jargon to use the verb "to kebab" to mean "to inadvertently transfix (some body part or organ)". I've been fighting a pointless rearguard action for a while, pointing out that people have fixed on the wrong part of "shish-kebab". But "He kebabed himself with a nail gun" seems to have more of a ring to it than "He shished himself with a nail gun".

(I'm reminded of how the Romans similarly got the wrong end of the stick when importing the Greek τοξικὸν ϕάρµακον, "arrow poison". They adopted the toxicon ("pertaining to archery") part to give the Latin toxicum, "poison".)

Grant Hutchison

Strange
2010-Aug-17, 10:57 AM
So a darts player is really a toxicologist.

Antice
2010-Aug-17, 11:39 AM
Meat does not spoil overnight as a general rule of thumb. not unless it has been handled by feces covered hands that is. The kebab is not full of bacteria when it leaves the processing plant if the owner of the plant follows hygiene restrictions. having it slowly roasted on the outside will create a barrier of heat that prevent bacteria from entering the spit of meat. so the entire setup is in fact kept as clean as if it was newly disinfected with alcohol. or probably cleaner. some germs can survive alcohol, but not heat. If you got a food poisoning from a kebab then it was more likely from the salad rather than the meat.

Now to address those latex gloves some people are so endeared with. those are a filthy practice. seriously. they get filled with sweat in seconds, and since hands can never be 100% free of bacteria they create a perfect environment for massive growth of harmful germs. Latex gloves are generally banned from use in meat processing plants due to this. if a glove were to break during meat handling the meat would get a large dose of bacteria on it. when i buy food from a vendor i expect to see regular washing of hands when the person moves from task to task. especially if they are handling fresh vegetables. Seeing them use latex gloves as if they are some kind of magic ward against germs is 100% certain to make me go someplace else immediately. latex gloves are meant to protect the wearer of said gloves, and not the food.

NEOWatcher
2010-Aug-17, 12:42 PM
I can't find a Hygiene regulation that says this...
Here's some guidelines from the USDA (FAQ) (http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/focus_on_freezing/index.asp).
Of particular interest in this discussion, I found this.

Do not refreeze any foods left outside the refrigerator longer than 2 hours; 1 hour in temperatures above 90 °F.

And thanks Jen. Gyro sounds so obvious now. I don't know why I didn't connect a Greek word with a Greek food.
So; the sandwich is only a way to serve the spinning meat.

BigDon
2010-Aug-17, 01:45 PM
Now to address those latex gloves some people are so endeared with. those are a filthy practice. seriously. they get filled with sweat in seconds, and since hands can never be 100% free of bacteria they create a perfect environment for massive growth of harmful germs. Latex gloves are generally banned from use in meat processing plants due to this. if a glove were to break during meat handling the meat would get a large dose of bacteria on it. when i buy food from a vendor i expect to see regular washing of hands when the person moves from task to task. especially if they are handling fresh vegetables. Seeing them use latex gloves as if they are some kind of magic ward against germs is 100% certain to make me go someplace else immediately. latex gloves are meant to protect the wearer of said gloves, and not the food.

I was going to put this in its own thread but then I saw this opening.

There is a very old establish sandwich spot near where I live but one of my friends is very vocal about not getting served my the owner because she doesn't wear those latex gloves, BUT has natural fingernails over two and a half inchs long(63mm or so), well into the funny shape shage.

Is this the big "Eeeewww" it seems to be, or not?

mike alexander
2010-Aug-17, 03:17 PM
All I know is that I suddenly, terribly, want a gyro. Or a shwarma. Or your name of choice. Crisped, thin meat slices on hot flatbread with fresh onions and a goodly dollop of yogurt or sour cream.

There used to be a very good place on High Street in Columbus, Ohio, across from the university. But that was long ago.

swampyankee
2010-Aug-17, 03:27 PM
There are advantages to living or working in either a big city (I used to work in NYC, and hope to do so again) or a college town (I live in New Haven). Lots of places to get all sorts of tasty and inexpensive food from just about every nationality.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 03:56 PM
they get filled with sweat in seconds, and since hands can never be 100% free of bacteria they create a perfect environment for massive growth of harmful germs.

Except most of the bacterial growth on your hands isn't actually harmful bacteria, but sure. (And my understanding is that your own personal bacterial passengers might make people outside your immediate family sick if they come in contact with them, but not generally. The idea is that your family has immunity to your bacteria.) And of course you aren't 100% bacteria free. There's more bacteria than you-cells in your body.


All I know is that I suddenly, terribly, want a gyro. Or a shwarma. Or your name of choice. Crisped, thin meat slices on hot flatbread with fresh onions and a goodly dollop of yogurt or sour cream.

I have an obvious solution for you . . . .

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-17, 06:21 PM
... Or haggis.
Haggis is the food of gods.:)
That US'ians aren't allowed to sell its ingredients as food makes it seem a godless country.:D

"Mechanically-separated meat" isn't offal.
I think it was in reference to having read a haggis recipe.

Lungs are considered offal in the US as far as I know.

ravens_cry
2010-Aug-17, 06:39 PM
Alton Brown has a recipe for making gyro meat at home. (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/gyro-meat-with-tzatziki-sauce-recipe/index.html)
I haven't tried it personally, but it sounds delicious.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-17, 06:46 PM
It was a basic rule in Mum's kitchen, and now in my partner's, that frozen food cannot be frozen safely again.
I can't find a Hygiene regulation that says this, and I recognise that a domestic freezer may not go down to -18C (C above), but the reason is that freezing only slows or stops bacterial growth. It does not kill bugs. Freeze twice, and the bugs already infecting your meat, that may not be pathogenic in number, have a head start and rapidly become so.
But hygene regs promulgated by local councils in the UK PROMOTE this practice!
I think it's because the way it's used have the added part that your mom's kitchen likely missed, which is that the meat is heated enough to kill any bacteria, thus resetting the growth before freezing.

Incidentally, the rule of thumb I learned was that food can be safely recooled, provided it is heated all the way up to near-boiling every time it's out and both heating and cooling happens fast.
So something like a pasta sauce can be made in a large portion, and eaten over several days by making sure it's heated to boiling each time it's out and served straight from the pan while it's still on the stove, then put straight from the hot stove into the fridge/freezer without a waiting period.

The rule of no refreezing was made because many people often both neglect to heat the food sufficiently and allow it to cool down while sitting on the dinner table waiting to be served, making for few bacteria killed plus a long goldilocks time.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 07:24 PM
I think it was in reference to having read a haggis recipe.

Possibly, but it is something which separates the foodstuff in question from things many people consider delicacies.


Lungs are considered offal in the US as far as I know.

Oh, yes. The FDA does not consider it possible to process them in a way which will render them fit for human consumption.

pzkpfw
2010-Aug-17, 07:31 PM
I've eaten more kebabs sober than drunk.

(And never been made sick).

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 07:37 PM
Oh, yes. The FDA does not consider it possible to process them in a way which will render them fit for human consumption.Interesting. And rather odd to cursory inspection. It's also a difficult one to Google, because the majority of hits on "FDA" and "lungs" turns up drugs for lung diseases; adding "food" to the search makes my search no tighter, because "food" is already implicit in "FDA".
Do you know what it is about lights in particular that arouses the FDA's prohibitory ire?

Grant Hutchison

ravens_cry
2010-Aug-17, 08:00 PM
@HenrikOlsen:
A thing you may want to worry about is that you may kill the bacteria by boiling, but that doesn't mean the toxins they created are destroyed, such as those created by Staphylococcus bacteria.
A tomato based pasta sauce has the advantage of a lot of acid and sugar, both bacterial growth inhibitors, I believe. Still, I think freezing a big batch in individual portions would be safer all told. Not only will it freeze faster due to greater surface area, but you're not constantly dragging it in or out of that goldilocks zone.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-17, 09:04 PM
[Lungs] ... The FDA does not consider it possible to process them in a way which will render them fit for human consumption.
Well then, so much for the FDA.

I'll invite them to any number of Bavarian restarunts. Saure Lunge aka Lüngerl or Beuschel is a popular and very tasty meal in southern Germany and Austria. I've eaten it countless times. Yummy.

And I'll put down cash that nobody here would even notice it or find it bad tasting if they were to eat it without knowing what it was.

I'd like to know how many tourists have eaten it and found it tasty without having a clue of what it was.

http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-rezepte/beuschel.jpg

Looks and tastes a bit like a stew, in the picture with a Bavarian dumpling.

Btw, imagine a person coming to the US and saying "what, you boil the sap of a tree and eat it? Ughh, that's totally disgusting, how can you eat that, barf gross! I'd never touch that, ever. I gotta puke just thinking about it."

Fine, all the more maple syrup for us! ;)

I'm very often amazed at how people miss out on so much just because their mental scope is narrow and how they lack the adventure to try something new.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 09:35 PM
Do you know what it is about lights in particular that arouses the FDA's prohibitory ire?

Mucous, I believe.

captain swoop
2010-Aug-17, 09:45 PM
Guisborough where I live is a small market town Pop is about 18,000. On the Market place we have 4 shops selling Kebabs, there is another on Enfield Chase where I live, one opposite the Church Hall on Bow Street and one on Wilton Lane.
Kebabs usualy come with a shot of hot Chilli Sauce and a nice long Chilli to crunch on while you eat the Kebab.
In practice the meat is consumed and the Pitta and Salad are dropped onto the pavement to be swept up by the council the following morning.
They aren't 'dedicated' Kebab shops, they also do Pizza and Burgers.
That is in addition to 4 Chinese take aways, 2 Indian take aways and 4 Fish and Chip shops and one of these does Kebabs as well.

In and around Cleveland and Teesside we also have our own 'speciality' the 'Parmo' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmo)
(From Wikipedia)

Making a Parmo involves deep-frying a flattened chicken or pork fillet in an egg and breadcrumb batter, then smothering it in thick Bechamel sauce before topping off with cheddar cheese (the original Parmos were topped with Parmesan cheese, hence the name) and then grilling or baking in the pizza oven. Originally veal was used but later this was replaced by pork. In more recent times chicken became more popular as more Muslim-owned takeaway restaurants opened.

The Backroad Astronomer
2010-Aug-17, 10:06 PM
Here we have the Donair which is the same but the sauce is different. The sauce is a sweet garlic sauce.

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 10:18 PM
Mucous, I believe.Mucus? That sounds like an aesthetic rather than health-related judgement: surely not within the remit of the FDA. In any case, one trims out the major bronchi before cooking.

(Mucus, like phosphorus, callus and humus, is a noun in -us that becomes an adjective when spelled with -ous.)

Grant Hutchison

Antice
2010-Aug-17, 10:21 PM
Parmo sounds delicious.

A note on long fingernails and preparing food. Fingernails are not that hard to keep properly clean. just use a stiff nailbrush when washing. and make certain that the undersides are disinfected as well as the rest of the hands. it's a bit more work than short nails due to their length but otherwise it should have no effect. however. if she is using latex gloves then the sharp nails are practically guaranteeing that the gloves will break pretty fast. it's not that the germs on most peoples skin is a danger to themselves, but it is a danger to strangers who are not habituated with them. getting a big dose of unfamiliar bacteria can really ruin your day. And latex gloves do produce a soup of that particular persons bacteria. some times it's even worse since some people think that latex gloves can replace good hygiene.

Obviously long nails were banned at the meat processing plant i worked at. they really did take hygiene to ridiculous levels compared to what most people are used to. And that is a good thing when one considers just how many people both domestic and internationally that ended up eating the meat we processed. contaminated meat can kill you. but so can contaminated vegetables....

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-17, 10:23 PM
... a difficult one to Google ...


... (Mucus, like phosphorus, callus and humus, is a noun in -us that becomes an adjective when spelled with -ous.) ...
And certain verbs seem to become capitalized when they are built using a proper name. ;)

Van Rijn
2010-Aug-17, 10:26 PM
Interesting. And rather odd to cursory inspection. It's also a difficult one to Google, because the majority of hits on "FDA" and "lungs" turns up drugs for lung diseases; adding "food" to the search makes my search no tighter, because "food" is already implicit in "FDA".
Do you know what it is about lights in particular that arouses the FDA's prohibitory ire?


I had a little more luck searching for "FDA" and "Haggis" though it lead to a lot of second and third hand comments and conflicting statements. Some said there was an FDA regulation from the '30s on lung meat that might have been started because of TB. But there were others that suggest this was not an FDA but rather a USDA regulation, and it might have started in 1971, or in 1989. For instance, from here:

http://www.meandermag.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95:hunting-for-haggis&catid=37:food&Itemid=63


Since 1971, the USDA has declared one of haggis' core ingredients, sheep lungs, "unfit for human consumption." This branding-followed by a federal register notice - was based on a number of studies conducted by regulatory and non-regulatory food scientists and inspectors, says Steven Cohen, spokesman for the USDA's food safety and inspection service, which inspects meat and poultry operating plants and meat products.

But from here:

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2010/01/usda-to-lift-21-year-ban-on-haggis/



However, it has been 21 years since American Scots have had a proper Burns supper. During the mad cow crisis of the 1980s-1990s, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) imposed a ban on haggis because it feared the meat could be lethal.

Traditional haggis is made by simmering sheep's heart, liver and lungs minced with onion, oatmeal, suet, spices, and salt in the animal's stomach for approximately three hours. In 1989, however, the USDA determined that sheep organs used in haggis were at risk for carrying scrapie, a close variant of mad cow, and were banned on health grounds.


So was it started in 1971 or 1989, or 1930? Was it USDA, FDA, or some combination of both? I don't know, but everyone seems to agree that it is banned. I did see this, though, from the last article:


The USDA contacted Food Safety News on January 26th with this statement: "At this time, haggis is still banned in the U.S. The APHIS (Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service) rule covers all ruminant imports, which includes haggis. It is currently being reviewed to incorporate the current risk and latest science related to these regulations. There is no specific time frame for the completion of this review."

So maybe, eventually, the USDA will lift the ban. Will there be some issue with other agencies though? I have no idea.

Van Rijn
2010-Aug-17, 10:42 PM
Okay, found another article from the BBC, and it makes the 1971 and 1989 date issue clearer. See here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8480795.stm

In 1971, there was a ban on use of sheep's lung, and in 1989, there was a ban on British beef and lamb product imports.

So, the key limitation was apparently imposed in 1971, by the USDA.

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 10:44 PM
And certain verbs seem to become capitalized when they are built using a proper name. ;)Yes indeed. The capitalized verb "to Google" is the form favoured by the Oxford English Dictionary. :)
While the verb retains an immediate connection to the proper name from which it derives, some style manuals (like Burchfield) like to retain the capital. When the verb comes unstuck from the particular proper noun, and becomes a more general expression, the capital disappears. So we have "to Google" but "to hoover", with a judgement call required for the transition. Does anyone use "to google" to refer to a search engine other than Google? I don't know.

ETA: According to the OED, "to google" (no capital) is a cricketing term, meaning "Of the ball: to have a ‘googly’ break and swerve. Of the bowler; to bowl a googly or googlies ..."

Grant Hutchison

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-17, 10:53 PM
Yes indeed. The capitalized verb "to Google" is the form favoured by the Oxford English Dictionary. ...
Interesting.

It's details like that that I never learned, having not lived in an Englsh speaking environment since I was 18, i.e. for the last 34 years.


... Does anyone use "to google" to refer to a search engine other than Google? I don't know. ...
Well, I Googled it on Yahoo, but couldn't find anything relevant, so I'll try Googling it on Bing. ;)

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 11:12 PM
Interesting.

It's details like that that I never learned, having not lived in an Englsh speaking environment since I was 18, i.e. for the last 34 years.Well, style manuals differ. I'm an OED kind of guy, though. Another example from the OED would be that we "Americanize" but "bowdlerize": the connection to America is still direct; the connection to Dr T. Bowdler is second-hand.

But I'm guessing you were taking the opportunity to tease me for correcting Gillianren on a very minor point of spelling. In my defence I can only say:
1) I'm sure she'll be interested.
2) I've seen her use "mucous" as a noun before, so I'm guessing it's not a slip of the key.
3) It's a common mis-spelling that drives me mad.

Grant Hutchison

Van Rijn
2010-Aug-17, 11:30 PM
Yes indeed. The capitalized verb "to Google" is the form favoured by the Oxford English Dictionary. :)
While the verb retains an immediate connection to the proper name from which it derives, some style manuals (like Burchfield) like to retain the capital. When the verb comes unstuck from the particular proper noun, and becomes a more general expression, the capital disappears. So we have "to Google" but "to hoover", with a judgement call required for the transition. Does anyone use "to google" to refer to a search engine other than Google? I don't know.


I have, though in practice, I only rarely use other search engines these days. I deliberately haven't been capitalizing the word because I thought it had become a "more general expression." I don't capitalize "xerox" when I am xeroxing something, either.


ETA: According to the OED, "to google" (no capital) is a cricketing term, meaning "Of the ball: to have a ‘googly’ break and swerve. Of the bowler; to bowl a googly or googlies ..."


That would be an extremely rare usage where I live (nobody plays cricket).

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-17, 11:39 PM
I have, though in practice, I only rarely use other search engines these days. I deliberately haven't been capitalizing the word because I thought it had become a "more general expression." I don't capitalize "xerox" when I am xeroxing something, either.So perhaps we're reaching that cusp with "Google". It'll be interesting to see if and when future editions of the OED drop the capital from the headword.


That would be an extremely rare usage where I live (nobody plays cricket).I can imagine. :) I offered it as a curiosity, and to show that the OED has two different verbs with two different spellings, at present. I doubt if there is any potential for confusion between the two meanings, so there will be no barrier to spelling change even in cricketing nations.

Thanks for all your search activities, by the way. :)
I'd managed to hit several of those links myself. With the apparent uncertainty about who is responsible and when the decision was made, I rather despaired of turning up a reason for the ban.

Grant Hutchison

Gillianren
2010-Aug-18, 12:01 AM
Frankly, I appreciate the spelling correction. I'm afraid my only defense is "it looks weird."

I knew about the lung ban from a cookbook I own published in 1990, so if I hadn't been off doing other things, I could have added my data point!

Van Rijn
2010-Aug-18, 07:52 AM
Thanks for all your search activities, by the way. :)
I'd managed to hit several of those links myself. With the apparent uncertainty about who is responsible and when the decision was made, I rather despaired of turning up a reason for the ban.

Grant Hutchison

You're welcome. It seemed like an interesting puzzle at the time :lol:. For what it's worth, it seems pretty clear that this was a 1971 USDA regulation. I found this PDF:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/janqtr/pdf/9cfr310.18.pdf

From there, section 310.16 Disposition of Lungs says "Livestock lungs shall not be saved for use as human food." This is dated June 17, 1971. Unfortunately, I could find no specifics on why they put that regulation in place, only the vague reference to "a number of studies" I found earlier.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-18, 11:06 AM
A thing you may want to worry about is that you may kill the bacteria by boiling, but that doesn't mean the toxins they created are destroyed, such as those created by Staphylococcus bacteria.
Which is the reason for the emphasis on rapid heating and cooling to allow as little production as possible.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-18, 11:34 AM
Interesting. And rather odd to cursory inspection. It's also a difficult one to Google, because the majority of hits on "FDA" and "lungs" turns up drugs for lung diseases; adding "food" to the search makes my search no tighter, because "food" is already implicit in "FDA".
Do you know what it is about lights in particular that arouses the FDA's prohibitory ire?

Grant Hutchison
From what I managed to glean from a bit of rummaging around on the net (followed references from the Wikipedia article on Haggis), it's not the FDA but rather by the US Department of Agriculture and it's import of food containing lungs and stomachs which is prohibited.
Lungs were banned in 1971 because:

Researchers found "stomach contents, lesions and bacteria" in lungs, says Amanda Eamich of the USDA's Food Safety Inspection Service. Since then, the USDA has considered them an adulterated food item.
Then BSE struck and import of the stomachs was banned as well.

ravens_cry
2010-Aug-18, 10:48 PM
Which is the reason for the emphasis on rapid heating and cooling to allow as little production as possible.
I am not saying it's not a good idea, those are good practises anyway. But you are going to get even less with divided portions, is all.

neilzero
2010-Aug-19, 04:32 AM
If any is sold in Jacksonville, Florida, USA, I'm unaware. Like most everything, it can be reasonably safe or a health hasard. Our immune system saves us from serious symptoms most of the time. Minus 18c or minus 18f is not cold enough to chill a 30 centimeter (small dimention) piece of meat though the micro-organism growth temperature in less than an hour, so the larger cylinders and cones may be unsafe before they leave the factory. If the restaurant is open 24/7, additional organism growth can be avoided by keeping the flames on continuously, so it would be safer the second day than the first. Likely the honey baked hams popular here are also typically unsafe. Neil

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-19, 06:16 AM
Don't gyros also have garlic, which has antimicrobial properties?

Antice
2010-Aug-19, 02:31 PM
If any is sold in Jacksonville, Florida, USA, I'm unaware. Like most everything, it can be reasonably safe or a health hasard. Our immune system saves us from serious symptoms most of the time. Minus 18c or minus 18f is not cold enough to chill a 30 centimeter (small dimention) piece of meat though the micro-organism growth temperature in less than an hour, so the larger cylinders and cones may be unsafe before they leave the factory. If the restaurant is open 24/7, additional organism growth can be avoided by keeping the flames on continuously, so it would be safer the second day than the first. Likely the honey baked hams popular here are also typically unsafe. Neil

Here is a tidbit of trivia that should interest you. Meat processing plants do not just put meat into a -18 deg C freezer to freeze it.
The technique employed is called shock freezing. in essence everything is given 5 minutes on a conveyor that moves trough a freezer with an average temp of -60 to -80 deg C, this instant freezes the outer layer of the meat, and is cold enough to kill some types of germs in the surface layers of the product. the meat is then moved into a chill-down freezer where it sits overnight at a balmy - 50 deg C or colder temp.
Only after it has been chilled to the core with a temp far below -18 is it allowed to be moved into the long term storage freezer. And even there the temp is well below -18 deg C at all times. with standard temps in some facilities going as far down as -30 deg C.

-18 deg C is a maximum high point in temperature for storing meat based products. anything warmer and microbial life will be capable of doing it's thing albeit at a slower pace than at room temp. Yes. there are microbes capable of living at temps as low as -18 deg C. If your home freezer is only capable of sustaining about -18 deg C or so then you should replace it asap. it should be capable of sustaining -24 or colder until the lid is opened, and it should be capable of freezing up to 1kg meat/hour or so. Put some ice-cubes under and over the meat if you are going to freeze larger quantities. the cubes will absorb the heat without letting too much of it seep into other stored products.

ravens_cry
2010-Aug-19, 06:08 PM
Don't gyros also have garlic, which has antimicrobial properties?

The Alton Brown gyro recipe, as well as that for the Tzatzki Sauce, both contain garlic. From what I know of Greek cookery, that's pretty traditional.

captain swoop
2010-Aug-20, 10:36 PM
Here we have the Donair which is the same but the sauce is different. The sauce is a sweet garlic sauce.

If you don't want the Cilli on your kebab there is always the option of Garlic sauce. They sell it in little tubs as well so you can dip your chips in it (fries to the US)
Cheesy Chips are popular as werll. sort of a Pizza made with chips as the base.

JohnD
2010-Aug-21, 10:34 PM
Ye gods, Cap'n!
Your diet sounds unhealthy even without the bacteria!
A chip pizza sounds much worse than a chip sarnie.

What other unhealthy food do you guys enjoy?
How about the Scooby Snack? NOTHING to do with a famous canine cartoon character, it's a hamburger, in a bun with a sliced sausage, a rasher of bacon, a potato scone, a fried egg and a slice of cheese, which must be processed cheese for full authenticity. Favourite late night sustenance in Glasgow. At least it's freshly made, and except for the sausage (Taenia, pig tapeworm) and the egg (salmonella), quite hygienic, even if it is Death by Lipidaemia.
Or the Deep-Fried Mars Bar? Over 400 calories in one dish, that's Murder by Carbohydrate, with more fats as the co-defendent.

Must go and nibble a carrot.

John

grant hutchison
2010-Aug-22, 12:28 AM
Deep-fried Rolos are nice. Or deep-fried Maltesers if you're trying to lose weight.

Grant Hutchison

Antice
2010-Aug-22, 05:47 AM
Ye gods, Cap'n!
Your diet sounds unhealthy even without the bacteria!
A chip pizza sounds much worse than a chip sarnie.

What other unhealthy food do you guys enjoy?
How about the Scooby Snack? NOTHING to do with a famous canine cartoon character, it's a hamburger, in a bun with a sliced sausage, a rasher of bacon, a potato scone, a fried egg and a slice of cheese, which must be processed cheese for full authenticity. Favourite late night sustenance in Glasgow. At least it's freshly made, and except for the sausage (Taenia, pig tapeworm) and the egg (salmonella), quite hygienic, even if it is Death by Lipidaemia.
Or the Deep-Fried Mars Bar? Over 400 calories in one dish, that's Murder by Carbohydrate, with more fats as the co-defendent.

Must go and nibble a carrot.

John

What's so unhealthy about a kebab every now and then? It's got meat & greens. by itself the kebab is no worse than most other food I've sampled. ofc. Just don't overdo the sause.

vonmazur
2010-Aug-22, 07:30 AM
There are advantages to living or working in either a big city (I used to work in NYC, and hope to do so again) or a college town (I live in New Haven). Lots of places to get all sorts of tasty and inexpensive food from just about every nationality.

Hey Yankee, just head to the Louis Lunch...I used to haunt that place...vertically roasted hamburgers!! And there was Maumoons, off of Chapel St, open late with the usual middle Eastern stuff...Jimmy's of Savin Rock....etc etc....I miss Frank Pepe's Pizza here in AL, every time I visit CT, I head for Wooster St just to chow down on Pizza made in a Coal Fired Oven....Ain't nothin like it here in the South...

Dale in AL

captain swoop
2010-Aug-22, 11:59 AM
I don't eat kebabs myself. I do like a Parmo sometimes though.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-22, 08:40 PM
What's so unhealthy about a kebab every now and then? ...
Absolutely nothing. But people - yes, even some BAUT members, who otherwise laugh at hoax believers - tend to abandon logic and differentiated thinking and let themselves be led on by gut emotions and superficial descriptions.

I sometimes have the perverse pleasure of telling people unaccustomed to the local cuisine that the meat they just ate and greatly enjoyed (beef/pork) was in fact buffalo / whale / kangaroo / ostrich / alligator / whatever. It's fun to see how people suddenly find pork/beef disgusting. They then refuse to believe that I was just kidding them.

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-23, 02:48 AM
BTW, some gyro places that I've been to, take the meet strips from the Kronos rotisserie and fry them on the griddle. I'm not sure if that is just to reheat them for sanitations sake or to crisp them up a little.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-23, 02:57 AM
BTW, some gyro places that I've been to, take the meet strips from the Kronos rotisserie and fry them on the griddle. I'm not sure if that is just to reheat them for sanitations sake or to crisp them up a little.
The Greek places tend to do that. Sometimes.

It's for one of two reasons, depending on the situation.

1. The meat on the spit isn't quite ready but the customer is waiting, so getting it done on the grill speed things up. The Greeks use coarser, thicker meat slices on the spit, and it cooks slower.

2. The meat on the spit was ready but there wasn't any customer around, so they cut the meat off and put it in the tray. When the next customer comes, they heat it up on the grill.

[sits back and waits for the "that's gotta cause health problems" crowd]

vonmazur
2010-Aug-23, 05:05 AM
Kleindoofy and Fellows: There is, even here in semi-rural Alabama, a Gyros restaurant within 5 miles of me....They slice off the meat and put it on the grill, for all of the reasons outlined previously, I suspect....I always pass on the Mayo, and have them use Tahini instead, and no Lettuce!! I have to say this in Spanish, as the grill employees are all Hispanic...How's that for a Greek joint?? (Sin mayonesa, sin lechuga....Por favor...)

Kleindoofy: I belong to a German Cultural Club here in Birmingham, we have a good German Tafel every Samstagsabend....But they do not do the Lungli, just like the Scots at the Robbie Burns dinner do not make "real" haggis, yes I belong to that one too...My wife is Scots and German...I get the best Alcohol because of this!! Drambue and Schnapps........

All this food talk is making me hungry; Some real Italian Procuitto and sliced Asiago on Pita Bread, maybe some Cuban style Pork roast too...

Dale in AL

NEOWatcher
2010-Aug-23, 04:39 PM
Kleindoofy and Fellows: There is, even here in semi-rural Alabama, a Gyros restaurant within 5 miles of me....They slice off the meat and put it on the grill, for all of the reasons outlined previously, I suspect....I always pass on the Mayo, and have them use Tahini instead, and no Lettuce!!
Mayo? I've never had one like that.
Around here, it's a cucumber sauce made with yogurt (preferably with garlic). The lesser quality ones just use sour cream.

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-23, 06:02 PM
Mayo? I've never had one like that.
Around here, it's a cucumber sauce made with yogurt (preferably with garlic). The lesser quality ones just use sour cream.

That would be tzatziki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzatziki).

NEOWatcher
2010-Aug-23, 06:07 PM
That would be tzatziki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzatziki).
I figured it might have a name, but I've never heard it used anywhere. Thanks. (although I'll probably forget it).

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-23, 06:17 PM
I figured it might have a name, but I've never heard it used anywhere. Thanks. (although I'll probably forget it).

It's been mentioned upthread already, but I didn't know if you know what it was.

vonmazur
2010-Aug-24, 05:52 AM
Fellows: They have Tzatziki as well, but for some reason they were using Mayo...Today I got one with Hummus instead of the Tzatziki, to avoid the dripping on the car seat...I was still good!

BTW Birmingham is more cosmopolitan that one would think, we have a lot of Greeks running restaurants here....Apparently the Steel Industry attracted a lot of Immigrants a Century ago, and now they have their own culture blended into the local one...

Dale

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-24, 03:40 PM
BTW Birmingham is more cosmopolitan that one would think, we have a lot of Greeks running restaurants here....Apparently the Steel Industry attracted a lot of Immigrants a Century ago, and now they have their own culture blended into the local one...

It's been my experience that greeks run all the family restaurants here, except for the national chains and, of course, the italian places run by the mob.

slang
2010-Aug-24, 11:44 PM
A few days ago there was a show on Dutch TV that focused on döner kebabs. They went to 10 selling points, and ordered one, and in each case it was guaranteed to be lamb meat only. So show host takes the stuff to a DNA lab, where the meat is tested. About 5 turn out to be a mix of several kinds of meat (cow, pork, chicken, turkey, lamb). One is 100% cow, another is 100% chicken, another 100% turkey, and (very shocking to the members of some religion(s)) one was 100% pork... Only one of the 10 was pure lamb.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-26, 09:46 PM
You know it's real lamb if you go to the shop soon enough (http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/default.aspx?id=cffbfda5-b506-4df9-9322-1084b276aa21&no-redirect=true).

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-29, 01:56 AM
For some reason I just thought of something I haven't had for years and really miss: a hot pastrami sub sandwich. And I don't mean the crap they sell at Subway.

At any halfway decent subshop (i.e. non-franchise), the pastrami will sit for quite a while, lukewarm, in a pan on a steam table before being served. Not to mention the meatballs in the pan right next to the pastrami.

That has to be more dangerous than the döner spit.

Why don't subshop patrons drop like flies?

(Patrons of Subway don't get sick, they just lose their will to live.)

vonmazur
2010-Aug-29, 03:40 AM
Kleindoofy: That's why Jarred lost all that weight!! If you were here in the US, they had a rather fat fellow, who was now skinny, named Jarred, who claimed that he lost a lot of weight on a Subway diet....Now we know how he did it!!

Dale in AL

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-29, 05:00 AM
Why don't subshop patrons drop like flies?

(Patrons of Subway don't get sick, they just lose their will to live.)

Actually, there was recently an outbreak (http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/press10/6.18.10Salmonella_Update.htm) of a rare form of salmonella around here a couple months ago at several dozen Subway restaurants.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-29, 12:34 PM
Remember that pastrami, like many sausages, was developed as a way to preserve meat before refrigeration, I'm not really surprised they last ok outside a fridge.

Jens
2010-Aug-30, 02:13 AM
Remember that pastrami, like many sausages, was developed as a way to preserve meat before refrigeration, I'm not really surprised they last ok outside a fridge.

I was going to say the same thing. Preserved foods like sausages and smoked things and pickles were invented before refrigeration, so people would have things to eat that didn't go bad quickly. With food, I don't think it's ever a case of "leave it out" = goes bad. Rather, the risk increases.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-30, 02:22 AM
But it's not just a case of leaving it out.

It's sliced (= lots of surface area), moist, and luke warm, in an open pan with lots of other foods around, i.e. the perfect breeding conditions for all the red, yellow and green meanies.

Now, sub shop patrons don't fall over dead, not even from clogged arteries caused by a meatball sub with the works, and neither do döner consumers, so let's just accept that hot pastrami and döner aren't dangerous.

Antice
2010-Aug-30, 05:11 AM
But it's not just a case of leaving it out.

It's sliced (= lots of surface area), moist, and luke warm, in an open pan with lots of other foods around, i.e. the perfect breeding conditions for all the red, yellow and green meanies.

Now, sub shop patrons don't fall over dead, not even from clogged arteries caused by a meatball sub with the works, and neither do döner consumers, so let's just accept that hot pastrami and döner aren't dangerous.

Some of those old preserving methods are very very good. especially the probiotic employing ones. like what is used in what we in Norway call "spekemat" (I forgot the english word for it I'm afraid)
Pastrami is just too salty for bacterial growth to get a foothold unles it is brine loving bacteria. that sort of limits the number of contestants a lot. those that do thrive on a pastrami are unlikely to thrive much longer when eaten.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-30, 04:34 PM
If it's related to the similar Danish word, it's a catchall for salting, pickling, drying and/or smoking meat to preserve it.

Antice
2010-Aug-30, 08:10 PM
If it's related to the similar Danish word, it's a catchall for salting, pickling, drying and/or smoking meat to preserve it.
That pretty much nails it. guess English don't have a catch all phrase for it then. except smoking meat is not generally included if that is the only treatment used, in those cases we call that "rřkt".
As far as cuisine goes pickling is generally only done to herring.
On the other hand some of the more esoteric practices include fermenting fish. as well as drowning it in lye. Fermented salmon is called "gravlaks", And other fish species are generally just labeled as "rakfisk" When treated with Lye it is called "Lutefisk".

You can tell that Norway is mostly a coastal nation by the large numbers of different kinds of treated fish it has on it's menu.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-30, 10:19 PM
... some of the more esoteric practices include fermenting fish. as well as drowning it in lye. ... You can tell that Norway is mostly a coastal nation by the large numbers of different kinds of treated fish it has on it's menu.
I can imagine that many of the döner skeptics from posts above are just now realizing how tasty and absolutely safe döner must be. ;)

I actually do get a fermented bean sauce at my local oriental shop with goes nicely when used in cooking rice dishes. It would be interesting to mix the fermented beans with the fermented fish ...

The Backroad Astronomer
2010-Aug-30, 10:23 PM
Well, just smoke me a kipper.

captain swoop
2010-Aug-30, 11:13 PM
As it happens I just purchased a pair of freshly smoked Kippers from fortunes (http://www.fortuneskippers.co.uk/acatalog/fortunes_shop.html) in Whitby today.

vonmazur
2010-Aug-31, 04:20 AM
No! not the dreaded Lutefisk!! Garrison Keiler has cured me of ever wanting to try it....:)

Dale

Antice
2010-Aug-31, 06:34 AM
No! not the dreaded Lutefisk!! Garrison Keiler has cured me of ever wanting to try it....:)

Dale

Lutefisk isn't all that bad if done right. if you like your fish without any kind of taste what so ever that is. It's served with bacon and brown cheeze to give the dish some flavour. whitout these it would taste like... humm.... nothing at all except tasteless jello with a strange texture tbh. If it's been in lye for too long it turns into a blob of almost pure protein. if it's been washed too little before cooking it will still have lye in it. In that case it becomes truly horrible.
imho fermented fish (gravlaks/rakfisk) is the bottom of the barrel. I simply cant stomach that stuff, It's not due to taste either,( the taste is generally not bad, It's got quite a lot of nice spices in it) I simply get voilently ill after a minute or so of having eaten even a small piece of it. Apparently this reaction is not all that uncommon. some of the fermentation products are decay toxins after all.
With gravlaks there is a very real danger of having cross contamination of germs, this will cause serious food poisoning. sometimes even fatal food poisoning.

kleindoofy
2010-Aug-31, 09:09 PM
... With gravlaks there is a very real danger of having cross contamination of germs, this will cause serious food poisoning. sometimes even fatal food poisoning.
You're beginning to make döner sound like health food.

JohnD
2010-Aug-31, 11:04 PM
It's not having wildlife in the food, it's the type and what you are used to.
Cheese, rare and properly hung meat, any alcoholic drink, in fact any fermented food. Many are highly prized by connoiseurs.
But there again, so is fugu fish.

But if you are talking Scandavian fermented fish products, what about surstromming (Swedish slashed-o)?
The. Most. Disgusting food I have ever smelt, and I've smelt a durian, yet the bacteria responsible for this WMD aren't pathogenic. Although they produce some toxic gases, like hydrogen sulphide, the fish is perfectly edible, providing you have no sense of smell.

No, originally, all along and still, I'm amazed that doner isn't regularly the sourse of proper, salmonella or E.coli, food poisoning when you consider the sort of fast food joint that often offers it. Personal hygiene, and I don't mean deoderants but hand washing after, er, well, you know what I mean, is something that has to be disciplined into many people or it just won't happen.

John

Trebuchet
2010-Sep-01, 12:13 AM
If it's related to the similar Danish word, it's a catchall for salting, pickling, drying and/or smoking meat to preserve it.

"Curing", I think.

Antice
2010-Sep-01, 07:03 AM
It's not having wildlife in the food, it's the type and what you are used to.
Cheese, rare and properly hung meat, any alcoholic drink, in fact any fermented food. Many are highly prized by connoiseurs.
But there again, so is fugu fish.

But if you are talking Scandavian fermented fish products, what about surstromming (Swedish slashed-o)?
The. Most. Disgusting food I have ever smelt, and I've smelt a durian, yet the bacteria responsible for this WMD aren't pathogenic. Although they produce some toxic gases, like hydrogen sulphide, the fish is perfectly edible, providing you have no sense of smell.

No, originally, all along and still, I'm amazed that doner isn't regularly the sourse of proper, salmonella or E.coli, food poisoning when you consider the sort of fast food joint that often offers it. Personal hygiene, and I don't mean deoderants but hand washing after, er, well, you know what I mean, is something that has to be disciplined into many people or it just won't happen.

John

Now that last part i agree with. food poisoning is a real danger when you visit a place where there is crap all over the place. this is just as true for a 3 star restaurant with a dirty chef as it is for a food cart down at the corner on saturday night. Altho i have to say I've seen food cart owners with better hygiene than most low end restaurants. In most cases it is the salad that is going to carry the infecting organism, the grilled/boiled/charcoalified stuff is generally safe to eat despite the cook's lack of respect for his customers health.

slang
2010-Sep-02, 11:26 PM
Remember that pastrami, like many sausages, was developed as a way to preserve meat before refrigeration, I'm not really surprised they last ok outside a fridge.

Döner Kebab is heavily spiced, at least it is where I live. I've often wondered if this practice historically results from masking bad odors or tastes from meat that's gone slightly bad.

pzkpfw
2010-Sep-02, 11:42 PM
For the record, I was away from home much of this week.

Ate four kebabs in that time.

Yum!

(
vonmazur: we got the Jarod ads here in N.Z. too.
slang: my Mother is making me zuurkool stamppot right now. Ethnic food for the win!
)

PetersCreek
2010-Sep-03, 12:27 AM
If it's related to the similar Danish word, it's a catchall for salting, pickling, drying and/or smoking meat to preserve it.

In English, we practitioners of the art use a word that is...(ahem)...French: charcuterie. However, while we do have wet curing (brining) processes, the pickling of things such as herring isn't really a big part of the craft.

vonmazur
2010-Sep-04, 02:20 AM
In English, we practitioners of the art use a word that is...(ahem)...French: charcuterie. However, while we do have wet curing (brining) processes, the pickling of things such as herring isn't really a big part of the craft.

Brett/Peters Creek: Do you catch and smoke your own Salmon? I have a friend is AK who does this...just wondering. (He is way out in the wild though...)

Dale

slang
2010-Sep-04, 11:06 PM
slang: my Mother is making me zuurkool stamppot right now. Ethnic food for the win!

Make me hungry, will yah!? At least that's a well cooked dish, no fear of food poisoning there :) (Hope she made it with 'rookworst' and 'spekjes')

pzkpfw
2010-Sep-05, 12:47 AM
Make me hungry, will yah!? At least that's a well cooked dish, no fear of food poisoning there :) (Hope she made it with 'rookworst' and 'spekjes')

She apologised for not having any rookworst around, and instead made patties out of spare mince. We'll call it "fusion cooking". (My parents live an hours ride from home - always a good stopover.)

Byte
2010-Sep-06, 03:29 AM
You're all making me so hungry for a Doner Kebab. Ate so many of those the 2 years I was in Augsburg. Pretty sure it was the Kebabs that made gettin' outa bed hard.

I wonder if the stand we always got them at is still on the Rathausplatz... Some day I hope to make it back there.

Byte