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banquo's_bumble_puppy
2010-Aug-30, 11:10 AM
I've come to the conclusion that ST: Insurrection was as good as or possibly better than First Contact.

reasons: better FX
did not change a major Star Trek figure to roughen him up or bring him in line w. current world view
nice touch of innocence
showed the Federation in a different light
the humor was better (not bathroom humor)
fairly original story
the Enterprise

LIKED this movie liked the other but not as much

marsbug
2010-Aug-30, 11:54 AM
It would have made a classic TV two or three parter, but as a movie it seemed a bit aneamic. I can't exactly put my finger on what it lacked, there just weren't any scenes or lines that really stayed with me. Still I agree it's not half as bad as some people made made out.

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-30, 04:31 PM
Nothing important seemed to be in danger compared to other movies where the Earth was in danger by some unknown entity or force. the Son'a don't compare well to V'ger or the space whales. There was no real misunderstanding or threat since they didn't plan to kill the Ba'ku, just forced relocation which they tried to do without their knowledge. It was a family squabble with petulant children instead of some major frictional theme with actually frightening results.

novaderrik
2010-Aug-30, 06:11 PM
Insurrection is the one i always forget about. what happened in that one?

SkepticJ
2010-Aug-30, 07:21 PM
reasons: better FX


When was the last time you watched it?

I thought the CGI and sets looked cheesy ten years ago.

First Contact has much better special effects, acting, and I don't remember really anything too humorous in Insurrection. It tried with Worf's "puberty" and Data as a flotation device, but come on!

Now this isn't to say that the plot of First Contact doesn't have holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-E through, but Insurrection doesn't exactly make sense when you think about it either.

Ara Pacis
2010-Aug-30, 08:06 PM
Insurrection is the one i always forget about. what happened in that one?

The one with the fountain of youth particle technobabble being fought over by neo-luddite parents and their petulant, punk kids.

publiusr
2010-Aug-30, 09:26 PM
In other words, Avatar.

SkepticJ
2010-Aug-30, 10:07 PM
Well, to be fair, most conflicts are over resources, no matter what the rhetoric of leaders may imply otherwise.

Really, the only other things that lead to conflict are:

They must believe like we do.

They must not exist--genocide, in other words.

In a sci-fi setting, the resource has to be a rare techno-babble, otherwise the aggressors can just get it from somewhere else.

Doodler
2010-Aug-31, 10:30 PM
Insurrection was something of a gem hidden among the TNG crap that was flung upon the big screen. Yes, it was a sleeper, but it was a good sleeper. It was a multilayered, if basic, moral conflict that lacked the contrived nature of Picard's Churchillesque hostility towards the Borg in First Contact or the contrived drama of Data's death in Nemesis (heck, even as hammed as it was, Natasha Yar's death was a heck of a lot more effective because it wasn't so blatantly telegraphed). The ring unobtanium was a device, but its an effective stand in for the same kind of valuable resource under a local inhabitant's feet that has brought similar tragedy time and again in human history, (e.g. gold in the Black Hills, oil in the developing world).

Insurrection worked because Insurrection did well what good science fiction is supposed to do, it created allegory that grants universal perspective.

Solfe
2010-Aug-31, 11:19 PM
I want to check out Insurrection, I've never seen it but it is not on netflix yet.

Solfe

Moose
2010-Aug-31, 11:35 PM
It's a bit campy. The mostly-good kind of campy like STIV: Save the Whales, not the mostly-hideous like they were rumored to be planning to do in V, but didn't because it was wisely canceled during production and never replaced.

Solfe
2010-Sep-01, 01:09 AM
I forced my wife to watch Star Trek The Motion Picture a few years ago.

It was on a cable and was "edited for time" to hilarious/horrific effect. Whole chunks of dialog was removed along with some of the slower parts even though they were critical to the story. The effect was sort of surreal.

Solfe

marsbug
2010-Sep-01, 10:48 PM
Call me black hearted but if the Son'a had been going to shoot the Ba'ku instead if just kidnap them then I'd have been a bit more interested. I always think the bad guy makes the action film, and the Son'a were a bit half hearted about the whole deal.

Romanus
2010-Sep-02, 12:23 AM
No way; Insurrection is better than Generations, but comparisons with First Contact are a non-starter.

Like Marsbug, it's hard to pinpoint one specific reason why I dislike Insurrection; it's a Heinz 57 of flaws. Part of it is the fact that it stretches the Prime Directive ad absurdum, part of it is the utterly forgettable characters, and the villains' moronic motives. Then there's the scene that wasn't stolen from The Wrath of Khan at all, and that other one that's a million miles removed from the "Ship in a Bottle" episode. Finally, there's the part that's best expressed in the excerpt from the following website (note on link: quite a bit of soapboxing, so proceed with caution).


How quaint. How wonderful. How nauseating. Yessir, boys and girls, we have yet another anti-technology sermon from Hollywood, this time from a Star Trek film, of all places! At least Star Wars' anti-technology sermons are hidden in plot developments. Sojef simply preaches at the audience. Not only is it annoyingly preachy, but it's downright stupid. The adage "if you don't use it, you lose it" applies to technological capabilities every bit as much as it applies to any other skill. These people have supposedly lived without any kind of technology for hundreds of years, yet they still know how to repair a positronic processor? That doesn't just stretch credibility- that pulls it apart.

If the only problem with the Ba'ku were an annoyingly self-righteous character in Sojef and the ridiculous "we don't use technology but we still remember every aspect of it" motif, that would be marginally acceptable. But those are hardly the only problems with the Ba'ku. They are the most irritating cliché in all of fiction: the Wholesome Small-Town Folksy People.

link:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Insurrection/#Reaction

Ara Pacis
2010-Sep-02, 03:49 AM
Who else was secretly rooting for the Son'a to win?

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-02, 06:34 AM
No way; Insurrection is better than Generations, but comparisons with First Contact are a non-starter.

Like Marsbug, it's hard to pinpoint one specific reason why I dislike Insurrection; it's a Heinz 57 of flaws.


I can tell you the main reason I dislike the story: The entire premise with the Fountain of Youth particles. One of my pet peeves with ST is that given the medical technology they've demonstrated, they should have already made some major inroads on it. They've even demonstrated technology that does reverse aging - they once used a transporter to reverse what was essentially artificially induced aging. And the idea of funny particles that universally (across species) blocks aging is ludicrous. Aging is a complex physical process, not something you fix by zapping by particles.

So they have a ridiculous premise, and it is also an old story (a battle over a hidden fountain of youth) just dressed up for ST. It even is in a hard to reach location because of the warp limitation. Worse, it panders to the "aging is good" meme, with the good guys leaving the fountain of youth undisturbed, not taking the secret back to society, leaving it forgotten by the next movie, with nobody, apparently, even researching how to duplicate the fountain of youth particle gimmick.

There were other reasons I disliked it, but the bad, cliche premise was the worst part for me.

SkepticJ
2010-Sep-02, 04:50 PM
I recommend watching the Red Letter Media review of the film on YouTube.

I won't link to it because it's not "kid safe".

marsbug
2010-Sep-02, 11:02 PM
Who else was secretly rooting for the Son'a to win?
No secretly about it: the Ba'ku happen upon a fountain of youth planet, with the potential to alleviate suffering and death for countless billions across the galaxy. Do they study it and learn how to duplicate it for the good of all? No. Do they say 'this immortality is too great a power for creatures like us to use responsibly' and abandon the planet, loosing the map and all references to it? No.

They set up camp on the planet, and abandon their technology, in part to pursue their pastoral idyll, but also to avoid attracting attention and maintain their isolation. However it is justified by the plotline; the upshot is that they claimed the fountain of youth for themselves and took steps to avoid having to share it.:naughty:

In part i don't like this star trek film so much because the Ba'ku are suspiciously like very charming and beguiling bad guys, and the crew of the enterprise sem to be very easily seduced despite their 'enlightened sensibilities'.:eek:

Dont remember who said it but:
Youth and strength always loose to age and cunning. How cunning of the Ba'ku to hide behind a pastoral idyll and the claim that they only wish to preserve the fountain of youth planet! And thanks to the planets effects they have had plenty of age to practice their act.:clap::whistle:

So I'd make no secret about it: in ST Insurrection the bad guys are the good guys. Despite their methods the Son'a could have claimed they were acting out of desperation (and self preservation) to break the Ba'kus hold over what could be the biggest medical miracle in history, ever!:cool::lol:

Or perhaps I'm an evil techno-hugger with a secret craving to command billions of soulless cyber-drones....:razz::evil:

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-03, 12:46 AM
In part i don't like this star trek film so much because the Ba'ku are suspiciously like very charming and beguiling bad guys, and the crew of the enterprise sem to be very easily seduced despite their 'enlightened sensibilities'.:eek:


Yes, that's another reason why I didn't like this movie: I didn't much care for the ones that were supposed to be the good guys, or dislike the bad guys despite the writers' attempt to make them look bad. I just didn't identify with the back-to-nature, essentially selfish, immortals.

What really annoys me is that the writers would set it up like this. You know they aren't going to allow a cure for aging to go back to the Feds, because that means that they couldn't use older actors in ST after that (at least, for any story that is supposed to happen after this event). Naturally, they set it up so that to get the magic they have to violate the prime directive.

vonmazur
2010-Sep-04, 06:04 AM
I think I missed this one, was it the "Lock and Load" movie?? or the one with the dune buggies??

Dale

SkepticJ
2010-Sep-04, 06:38 AM
Neither. The one between those two.

Now that you reminded me of Nemesis' existence, I'm not sure which is worse, it or Insurrection.

vonmazur
2010-Sep-04, 07:22 PM
J: I thought there were only 3 STNG movies?? The first was "ST Venerations", with Whoopie and Kirk, then "Numb-isis", where Data plays Spock, and then the Fountain of Yut...Right?? I get confused, IMBD does not list them correctly...

The only TNG episode worth watching was the one where Picard learns to play the "Skye Boat Song" on a tin whistle, and possibly the episode with Data-Lore singing "Abdul the Bulbul Emeer"!! Like DS9...they were memorable...:) (All I can remember about DS9 was that Worf was really Willie Mays, everthing else was just SSDD every week, and that Father Mulcahey was a shape shifter...vague and fuzzy memory of some kind...)

Dale

Moose
2010-Sep-04, 07:33 PM
J: I thought there were only 3 STNG movies?? The first was "ST Venerations", with Whoopie and Kirk, then "Numb-isis", where Data plays Spock, and then the Fountain of Yut...Right?? I get confused, IMBD does not list them correctly...

Generations ("Picard & Kirk: BFFs")
First Contact ("Borg? In my USS Enterprise? It's more likely than you think.")
Insurrection (Riker shaves. Data doesn't.)
Nemesis (Troi "discovers a sudden-reverse-acceleration fault" in starship transmissions, and she's going to stick to that story.)

vonmazur
2010-Sep-04, 07:53 PM
Moose: You are correct, I forgot"First Contract" with all those intra-Galactic Yuppies cruising around in their gigantic square condo.....I always wondered where Cochraine learned the Vulcan Hand Salute....I think Riker taught him, and set up the future co-operation...by that one act...

Dale

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-04, 10:56 PM
Neither. The one between those two.

Now that you reminded me of Nemesis' existence, I'm not sure which is worse, it or Insurrection.

For me, it's Insurrection, mainly because the cliche premise ticked me off, but both movies were pretty bad. First Contact was the only TNG movie I really liked (and that, despite being tired of ST time travel stories).

Romanus
2010-Sep-05, 12:33 AM
^
Ditto. I can't believe that out of four movies they only got one gem--especially considering that TNG's source material is in many ways superior to TOS.

Re Moose:
You forgot the working title for Generations: "Captain Kirk IS...Chekov's Rifle"

novaderrik
2010-Sep-06, 05:36 AM
J: I thought there were only 3 STNG movies?? The first was "ST Venerations", with Whoopie and Kirk, then "Numb-isis", where Data plays Spock, and then the Fountain of Yut...Right?? I get confused, IMBD does not list them correctly...

The only TNG episode worth watching was the one where Picard learns to play the "Skye Boat Song" on a tin whistle, and possibly the episode with Data-Lore singing "Abdul the Bulbul Emeer"!! Like DS9...they were memorable...:) (All I can remember about DS9 was that Worf was really Willie Mays, everthing else was just SSDD every week, and that Father Mulcahey was a shape shifter...vague and fuzzy memory of some kind...)

Dale
father Mulcahey wasn't in DS9- you are thinking of the chief of staff from Benson. he later went on to work with Captain Kirk, Murphy Brown, and Dan Jackson from the original Stargate movie as a lawyer or something.

Tobin Dax
2010-Sep-06, 05:57 AM
father Mulcahey wasn't in DS9- you are thinking of the chief of staff from Benson. he later went on to work with Captain Kirk, Murphy Brown, and Dan Jackson from the original Stargate movie as a lawyer or something.

Rene Auberjonois was Father Mulcahey in the movie.


I think I missed this one, was it the "Lock and Load" movie?? or the one with the dune buggies??

Dale

ST: Insurrection is the movie with the "lock and load" line. Part of the "humor" in the movie.

korjik
2010-Sep-06, 07:20 PM
Moose: You are correct, I forgot"First Contract" with all those intra-Galactic Yuppies cruising around in their gigantic square condo.....I always wondered where Cochraine learned the Vulcan Hand Salute....I think Riker taught him, and set up the future co-operation...by that one act...

Dale

I thought Cochraine pulled out his shotgun and blew the pointy-eared alien away. Or am I thinking of something else...... :D

SkepticJ
2010-Sep-07, 06:04 AM
Well, Lily Sloane machine-gunned Data in the Phoenix's silo.

I don't know how you'd confuse an alcoholic, womanizing white man and a level-headed black woman, though.

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-07, 07:18 AM
It's a reference to an Enterprise mirror universe episode. They had a brief bit where they replayed the first contact meeting from the movie, but in this case, Cochrane and friends shot the vulcans and took their ship. Apparently in the mirror universe they managed to go on to enslave the vulcans.

vonmazur
2010-Sep-08, 02:40 AM
Guys: If Rene Auberjonois was not Odo, then who was his clone?

Dale

Tobin Dax
2010-Sep-08, 03:48 AM
Guys: If Rene Auberjonois was not Odo, then who was his clone?

Dale

Rene did play Odo, as well as the non-Trek characters mentioned previously.

I will add the disclaimer that I may not have spelled his surname correctly.

vonmazur
2010-Sep-08, 05:02 AM
Ok I am not senile! (yet) I went to IMDb and looked to be sure before I posted, so Fr Mucahey was a shape shifter!!

Dale

novaderrik
2010-Sep-08, 10:08 AM
Ok I am not senile! (yet) I went to IMDb and looked to be sure before I posted, so Fr Mucahey was a shape shifter!!

Dale

and a lawyer.. which is a good career for a shape shifter..

Delvo
2010-Sep-10, 01:24 AM
He also played a high-ranking human Starfleet officer in one of the first-generation movies. There were several people in an office (I think on Earth) discussing the possibility of a war coming soon against the Klingons, and he said that if that happened, then "Frankly, sir, we'll clean their chronometers". It might not have been his only scene, but that one line was what stood out to me as especially odoish.

SeanF
2010-Sep-10, 02:06 AM
He also played a high-ranking human Starfleet officer in one of the first-generation movies. There were several people in an office (I think on Earth) discussing the possibility of a war coming soon against the Klingons, and he said that if that happened, then "Frankly, sir, we'll clean their chronometers". It might not have been his only scene, but that one line was what stood out to me as especially odoish.
That was "The Undiscovered Country." Originally, his character was part of the conspiracy - he was the assassin who, disguised as a Klingon, attempted to kill the President at the end. Most of his scenes ended up being cut for the theatrical release, although they were restored for the home video version.

NEOWatcher
2010-Sep-10, 11:46 AM
One part of that scene always bothered me. Why would a Star Trek future use paper flipcharts?

novaderrik
2010-Sep-10, 03:55 PM
One part of that scene always bothered me. Why would a Star Trek future use paper flipcharts?


this is the same future that seems to have forgotten about the invention of the seatbelt, and where every console on the bridge of the ships explode whenever the deflector shields take any sort of a hit from even the weakest weapon..

paper flip charts are the least of their problems..

Glom
2010-Sep-12, 08:09 PM
I don't see how the effects in STIX can be at all considered better than STVIII.

novaderrik
2010-Sep-13, 04:34 AM
I don't see how the effects in STIX can be at all considered better than STVIII.

isn't that the river that the souls of the dead had to cross in ancient Egypt?

vonmazur
2010-Sep-13, 04:46 AM
No,it was some Rock Band with a song about Robots..Unless I am mistaken, it was Greece, not Egypt that had the river Styx....The Egyptians had some other post-mortem trials and tribulations....

Dale

Mr Gorsky
2010-Sep-16, 01:06 PM
Wow ... this thread is veering wildly between serious and surreal. Sometimes within the same post.

I am not a huge ST fan, particularly the movies, although I do like VI and VIII but, for me, Insurrection's biggest crime is the one I find least forgiveable in a movie. It is just plain dull. I don't much care whether the effects are better or worse than First Contact, I just didn't find it nearly as engaging or interesting as a piece of cinematic entertainment.

Tobin Dax
2010-Sep-16, 11:06 PM
Wow ... this thread is veering wildly between serious and surreal. Sometimes within the same post.

I am not a huge ST fan, particularly the movies, although I do like VI and VIII but, for me, Insurrection's biggest crime is the one I find least forgiveable in a movie. It is just plain dull. I don't much care whether the effects are better or worse than First Contact, I just didn't find it nearly as engaging or interesting as a piece of cinematic entertainment.

This thread makes me keep thinking that I should rewatch the movie. But you're right, it is dull, and I just don't want to sit through it.

marsbug
2010-Sep-16, 11:35 PM
Wow ... this thread is veering wildly between serious and surreal. Sometimes within the same post.

I am not a huge ST fan, particularly the movies, although I do like VI and VIII but, for me, Insurrection's biggest crime is the one I find least forgiveable in a movie. It is just plain dull. I don't much care whether the effects are better or worse than First Contact, I just didn't find it nearly as engaging or interesting as a piece of cinematic entertainment.

I have had the same reaction to a number of films that were raved about, so I have to admit that bashing insurrection along iwth everyone else is kinda cathartic! Is anyone still active on this thread and defending it?

Ara Pacis
2010-Sep-17, 04:35 AM
This thread makes me keep thinking that I should rewatch the movie. But you're right, it is dull, and I just don't want to sit through it.

After watching the redlettermedia criticism, I suggest watching that instead.