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AstroMike
2002-Apr-20, 05:26 PM
Who is this James Collier guy that I've heard about? Was he the one who started the incorrect assumption that the Lunar Rover couldn't fit into the LM?

JayUtah
2002-Apr-20, 05:34 PM
James Collier was an investigative journalist. He was approached by Ralph Rene's potential publisher to make sure Rene's book was acceptable. Collier then did his own investigation and produced a video, Was It Only a Paper Moon?

Yes, he's the one that originated the claim that the lunar rover couldn't fit inside the lunar module. He assumed it didn't fold up, and he assumed it was carried entirely within the LM descent stage, not strapped to the side.

His prior book, Votescam: The Stealing of American, is another "Gummint is lying" conspiracy theory.

Collier seems to know very little about space travel and very little about how Apollo hardware worked.

JayUtah
2002-Apr-20, 06:00 PM
Some of the idiotic assertions of James Collier:

1. Two suited astronauts could not fit inside the LM. (Collier bases this on tape measurements, not experimentation.)

2. A suited astronaut could not fit through the LM hatch because it opened inward, and Collier has the measurements to prove it. (Collier didn't measure an LM, he measured a cockpit simulator.)

3. A suited astronaut could not fit through the docking tunnel. (He wasn't meant to.)

4. There is a blue glow in the spacecraft windows. (Scattering by contaminants.)

5. No crater under the LM. (Collier botches every one of his attempts at physics.)

6. None of the "blazing stars" visible in any photographs. (Shouldn't be any.)

7. Shadows go different directions and lengths. (Perspective -- what a concept.)

8. No photos taken of earth. (Patently false.)

9. Funny rover rooster tails. (Again, Collier is no physicist.)

10. The rover won't fit in the bay on the LM, and Collier has the measurements to prove it. (Collier has no clue how it was folded up.)

11. The camera cuts away from footage of the LM being unloaded, then it's shown fully deployed. (Collier is watching "Nothing So Hidden", not the archival footage. The archival footage clearly shows the deployment from start to finish.)

12. The lunar lander crashed on its only test flight. (The LLTV, not the lander, crashed ONCE because it ran out of maneuvering fuel. All other flights were successful.)

13. None of the astronauts has written a memoir. (Patently false.)

Clearly Collier knows very little about the Apollo program. Most of the answers to his questions would have been found at the museum where he did his "research", had he but asked the questions. Clearly he was at the museum to gather ammunition, not information.

William the Conqueror
2002-Apr-20, 06:10 PM
A couple of interesting links on Collier:

* Written by Jim Scotti:

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/collier.htm

* Written by a certain Jay:

http://www.clavius.org/bibcollier.html

.. and some years back, a guy named Larry Jacks had a neat, chronological debunking of Collierīs video.

The debunking was posted at:

http://www.skywardpress.com/acritiqu.htm

... however that link has been "dead" for a long, long time /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif (What happened ??)

"William The Conqueror"



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: William the Conqueror on 2002-04-21 14:25 ]</font>

Ian R
2002-Apr-20, 10:59 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/19980522193628/http://www.skywardpress.com/acritiqu.htm

JayUtah
2002-Apr-21, 12:20 AM
http://www.thule.org used to have the entire Collier video in RealVideo, but it's gone now.

William the Conqueror
2002-Apr-21, 05:47 PM
On 2002-04-20 18:59, Ian R wrote:
http://web.archive.org/web/19980522193628/http://www.skywardpress.com/acritiqu.htm


Dear Ian R !

Thank you so much for posting the above URL !

I have been trying to locate the Larry Jacks stuff for years, unable to find it even in a Google cache !

Iīm also gonna take a closer look at

web.archive.org

It looks like an interesting site !

"William The Conquorer" /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

jrkeller
2002-Apr-22, 02:35 PM
What a great site. I'll add this to my list of good hoax debunking sites.

ToSeek
2002-Apr-22, 03:43 PM
On 2002-04-20 13:34, JayUtah wrote:

Yes, he's the one that originated the claim that the lunar rover couldn't fit inside the lunar module. He assumed it didn't fold up, and he assumed it was carried entirely within the LM descent stage, not strapped to the side.


But it wasn't strapped to the side, was it? It folded up into its own compartment (most of the descent stage being empty, in any case).

JayUtah
2002-Apr-22, 04:20 PM
Most of the descent stage empty? No, most of the descent stage was consumables.

The LRV was attached to the left forward segment of the descent stage, just to the pilot's side of the ladder. Whether it was in or on the LM depends on your point of view. The bay in question is triangular, with the rear formed by the intersection of the forward transverse truss and the left longitudinal truss. This allowed for a pocket in the fuselage not unlike the MESA bay. Folded up, the LRV was triangular and fit very nicely into this bay, but it was not contained in the fuselage.

When you look at the LM with the LRV attached, the bottom surface of the stowed LRV is easily mistaken for the insulated panel that occupied that spot on previous missions.

ToSeek
2002-Apr-22, 06:15 PM
Okay, so the LRV wasn't enclosed in a compartment, but one could say that it was within the volume of the descent stage - it's not as if it was sticking out.