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Berengar
2010-Sep-27, 01:33 AM
Hello.

I'm in discussion with some Apollo-opponents. I've read something about the possibilities to track the Apollo mission (espacially Apollo 11).

Is somebody here, who is able to explain which countries, companies, observatories etc. were able to track this mission?

A link to a source would be very helpful. Thank you.

Selenite
2010-Sep-27, 03:25 AM
Hellow Berenager. Welcome to BAUT. :)

Here's a link to a site that could prove helpful for a start.

http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

The Apollo missions were extensively followed by amateur astronomers and space enthusiasts from around the world on the ground. Many published their accounts in magazines like Sky & Telescope. The Soviet Union followed the missions with interest as well, and former Soviet space officials and cosmonauts have admitted as much. However, don't be surprised if your "Apollo-opponents" discount such witnesses as unreliable, existing on paper only, mistaken, paid-off, etc, etc. You battle a lot of empty rationalizations as an Apollo believer.

Berengar
2010-Sep-27, 04:02 AM
Thank you very much. This is what I was looking for.

I know the opponents and their tactics. Sometimes I can't do anything then shake my head. One of the opponents is a former user from here. He is the saddest example of low-level-education mixed with overestimating of himself.

There is another question about the Sovjets. I believe, that they tracked the mission (the opponents of course not). Is there any source available, that they have tracked Apollo 11?

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-27, 04:40 AM
There is another question about the Sovjets. I believe, that they tracked the mission (the opponents of course not). Is there any source available, that they have tracked Apollo 11?

Here's another thread on BAUT that gets into that:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/20447-Soviet-tracking-of-Apollo-missions

Torsten
2010-Sep-27, 05:04 AM
Welcome to BAUT Berengar. The following is a copy of an earlier post (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/81998-two-absolute-definitive-answer-proving-man-on-the-moon-is-not-a-hoax?p=1382134#post1382134) I made on this same topic:

From one of the earliest posts ever (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/21-Let-s-see-if-this-works?p=178&highlight=amateur#post178) on this board, Karl provided a table listing amateur radio enthusiasts who tracked the communications from various Apollo missions. I've tried to reproduce that table (the original was in html), but the best I could come up with was to make a gif of it and it is linked below. I've updated the link to Sven Grahn's page as note 4.

Due to the necessary trajectory of the spacecraft, the enroute communications did not appear to be coming from a direct line between the Earth and Moon, which is what Dave J is referring to in the earlier comment. Trying to set up something that has the proper characteristics requires, well, that one has a spacecraft with people in it on its way to the moon.


http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh315/TKphotofolder/BAUT/Amateur_Apollo_Tracking.gif

Note 1: Central States VHF Society (http://www.csvhfs.org/)

Note 2: San Bernadino Microwave Society (http://www.ham-radio.com/sbms/)

Note 3: "Data Reception in the S-Band using the 20-metre-parabolic universal antenna of Bochum" Lists the following:

Lunar Orbiter 5, (2295MHz)
Pioneer 8, (2292MHz)
Surveyor 7, (2295MHz)
Apollo 8-16, (2272.5, 2282.5, 2287.5MHz)
Note 4: Tracking Apollo 17 from Florida (http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/trackind/Apollo17/APOLLO17.htm)

Berengar
2010-Sep-27, 05:52 AM
VanRijn and Torsten, I'm thankful for your help. Especially the russian report is very important for me.

Donnie B.
2010-Sep-27, 12:09 PM
Some years back I saw a documentary on the Apollo missions that included an interview with a scientist who was independently monitoring the signals from Apollo 11 during its landing phase. (I believe he was associated with a West Coast university that had a radio telescope, but I don't recall the details. Does anyone else remember this?) *

The fascinating part was that he had a printout of the Doppler shift of the signals from the LM during the final approach. It clearly showed the steady descent, but then the trajectory leveled off and reversed as Armstrong took manual control and flew the Eagle past the boulder field. Then the descent resumed and finally stopped when the lander touched down. The Doppler data revealed the "near abort" situation in real time, well before the events were reported to the public.


* Found it! It wasn't an American university after all, it was Jodrell Bank in the UK. Here's a link:
http://depletedcranium.com/fascinating-recording-of-apollo-11-at-jodrell-bank-released/

Swift
2010-Sep-27, 01:14 PM
Wikipedia (I know, the source of all knowledge ;) ) has an extensive page on third party evidence for Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings) and if you scroll down, there is a mission by mission description of evidence for each, from a wide variety observers around the world.

Story about ham operators tracking Apollo 11 (http://www.arrl.org/eavesdropping-on-apollo-11)

A russian site, in russian (http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/271/03.shtml)
Machine translation of part of that webpage, including the captions of figures 3 and 4.

Whether clause of the participant of events of 30-years prescription of E.P.Molotova offered to readers throws light on unknown pages of " lunar race " and finally closes a ridiculous question " there Were Americans on the Moon? "

...

For the objective control over performance of the American program the secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU D.F.Ustinov supervised the defensive industry of the country, in the end 1967 has instructed main designer РНИИ КП (at that time scientific research institute-885) M.S.Ryazanskomu to develop a special control radio engineering complex by means of which it would be possible to accept signals from the American spacecrafts of the program "Apollo", made flight of the Moon and landing to its surface.

M.S.Ryazansky at that time was responsible for creation of onboard and ground radio engineering control facilities by spacecrafts of the Soviet lunar program. Under its management for management of the Soviet piloted and automatic spacecrafts for research of the Moon the Ground complex of management included two control centres by flight, six ground and three ship items of the management, equipped by corresponding stations of tracking and located on territory of Soviet Union and in the certain points of the World ocean has been created. However these means could not be used for reception of the information from the ships "Apollo" as they worked in other frequency range with the signals having other structure. Therefore it was necessary to create the special control complex, capable to provide reception of data from "Apollos". It was supposed to accept from the American spacecrafts not only telephone (voice) and telemetering, but also the television information.

...

Flight of crew "Apollo-11" with an output on a surface of the Moon on July, 20th, 1969 N.Armstronga and E.Oldrina has finally stopped competition on landing the person to the Moon.

On fig. 3 photos of spectra of the signals accepted by control station from spacecrafts "Apollo", made with the screen of the videocontrol device are presented.

On fig. 4 the image of rising of the Earth above the lunar horizon, accepted on a telechannel from one of the ships "Apollo" is shown.

Berengar
2010-Sep-27, 09:22 PM
Thank you, Swift, for the translation. Very helpful.

rainless
2010-Sep-27, 10:21 PM
Hello.

I'm in discussion with some Apollo-opponents.

There are those who dare oppose the Son of Zeus?

FOOLS!

Seriously though, thanks for bringing attention to this story. I never knew much about the Apollo missions (little before my time.)

Berengar
2010-Sep-28, 12:16 AM
In the first time, some years ago, I was questioning some details about Apollo, to get more knowledge. To do this on an public forum means, that you receive many opinions. You have to deduct, which answer is right and which is wrong. The disussion tactic of the Apollo deniers have gone to insults and conspiracy claims. There is one CT who believes I would be a NSA-agent, a paid propagandist, a FBI-hackerwith several accounts etc. This guy was here in the forum too and has been banned for refusing answers and making threats. Now he is trolling on YTwith his nonsense and hate-speech, claiming that he has beaten Phil and Jay in a scientific debate.

This was the reason for me to ask for sources of tracking, especially from the former USSR.

Halcyon Dayz
2010-Sep-28, 12:39 AM
This guy was here in the forum too and has been banned for refusing answers and making threats. Now he is trolling on YTwith his nonsense and hate-speech, claiming that he has beaten Phil and Jay in a scientific debate.
Sounds like the self-proclaimed Interdimensional Warrior.

He got eviscerated here, and those threads are still here for everyone to read.

Berengar
2010-Sep-28, 12:56 AM
You got it. His YT-name is MrConspiracyRealist, similar to one of his accounts here.

Can you show me a thread?

valleytenderfoot
2010-Sep-28, 01:54 AM
Berengar, this is an interesting one. See if you notice any similarities.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/94739-CONSPIRACY-REALIST-vs-Apollo?highlight=

valleytenderfoot
2010-Sep-28, 02:01 AM
And this is another good read from him as IDW (Interdimensional Warrior)
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/62835-Wondering-if-I-can-set-up-a-one-on-one-debate-with-Jay-on-the-Apollo-hoax-question.?highlight=

Van Rijn
2010-Sep-28, 07:01 AM
I liked this thread, not because of IDW's comments, but because it brought up some great discussion on spacecraft cooling:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/62859-1st-Question-How-was-the-Apollo-space-craft-cooled

That's one of the main reasons I follow moon hoax threads - discussions sometimes lead to interesting details on background technology, strategies used, and so on.

Tedward
2010-Sep-28, 07:39 AM
Re 11 tracking. Jodrell bank did. There was a program on UK TV a few years agon on the subject of the moon landings and Jodrell were tracking the Russian probe that was sent at the same time and they used the smaller dish (?) to track 11 all the way to the surface. The program I remember had a graph of the doppler shift from the radio used to plot the height (I think) until touch down.

Not sure the link below is the script of the program I saw but its a start and interesting.

Link to a TV program script (http://www.open2.net/historyandthearts/history/three_transcript_p.html)
A related incident (http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/news/2009/luna15-apollo11/)

Sure there is more if you do the usual with google.


Edit. Second link has an interesting audio clip by the way.

valleytenderfoot
2010-Sep-28, 10:57 AM
I liked this thread, not because of IDW's comments, but because it brought up some great discussion on spacecraft cooling:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/62859-1st-Question-How-was-the-Apollo-space-craft-cooled

That's one of the main reasons I follow moon hoax threads - discussions sometimes lead to interesting details on background technology, strategies used, and so on.

I agree, that is one of the few benefits of following the HB's threads.

When I originally started commenting/replying to HB comments on YT, it was because someone had a question and I wanted to help with an answer. It became a learning process because often a question was asked that I didn't understand or know the answer to, so I would research it and inevitably learn something new. That was how I found BAUT last year.

The down side of following the HB threads (more so on YT than here because YT is an unmoderated anarchists playground :evil:) is that you also see the depths of some peoples mental illness.

Swift
2010-Sep-28, 01:18 PM
The down side of following the HB threads (more so on YT than here because YT is an unmoderated anarchists playground :evil:) is that you also see the depths of some peoples mental illness.
valleytenderfoot,

One small piece of moderator advice: please don't speculate on other's mental health. They might be rude, or their arguments illogical, but beyond that, we don't know. Thanks,

valleytenderfoot
2010-Sep-28, 11:40 PM
valleytenderfoot,

One small piece of moderator advice: please don't speculate on other's mental health. They might be rude, or their arguments illogical, but beyond that, we don't know. Thanks,

Roger that Swift, won't happen again.