PDA

View Full Version : [Sunrise and 2012]



sunsetsoutheast
2010-Sep-27, 02:19 AM
This post and it's replies, moved from here: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/18904-What-are-the-Likely-Senarios-to-make-the-sun-rise-from-west?p=1795941#post1795941


Someone that I had not proved such a fact in another thread. I thought this might be of interest to a wider audience even though you already knew this, too.


Alright, I'll explain, but I want you to understand I am explaining something you already know.

First of all, you know how many days there are in a year. About 365.25. That's 24 hour periods from one point in space until the earth rounds the sun and returns to the same place.

And you know that the earth rotates on its axis as it goes. So, do you know how many such rotations the earth experiences in the course of one year? Probably. But the correct answer is not equal to the number of days in a year.

Looking at the solar system from "above" and seeing Earth's North Pole, you would see it travelling around Sol in a counter-clockwise direction. You would also notice Earth is rotating counter-clockwise, as well. And with each rotation you would see that every point on the Equator experiences passing from darkness to sunlight and back to darkness with the passing of each revolution of Earth. Almost.

Now suppose Earth were to become non-rotational relative to the universe as it continued to revolve about the sun. Would you continue to see the effect of a sunrise and sunset (the terminator line) pass every point on the Equator of Earth? Yes. However, that terminator would then be moving in the opposite direction compared to the time when Earth stopped rotating :(1/1/13 :)). Not only that, but you would see that the length of that day/night period cycle is no longer about 24 hours, but abot 8766 hours. Which means you will then have to work about 2922 hours continuously before you can expect to be paid for overtime. The good news is you will get a very long rest when you get home from work in space.


But is there any reason to disregard this reverse sunrise/sunset given that Earth in fact does rotate on its axis (at least for another year :( )? Well, no. The effect does not cease to exist but merely becomes unapparent as it is offset by the greater number of cycles of the East/West sunrise /sunset. But that offset of the reverse day requires that it be cancelled by one rotation of Earth for which there is no corresponding E/W s/s day. Which means that the earth actually rotates about 366.25 times on its axis in a point to point spatial year.

That may be a new term. Someone please add it to the English language by saying it out loud a few times. Spatial year. 1/1/2013.

Do you understand?

Jim Worley
sunsetsoutheast@gmail.com

pzkpfw
2010-Sep-27, 04:10 AM
Someone that I had not proved such a fact in another thread.

What other thread?

(And what's with the 2012 stuff?)

astromark
2010-Sep-27, 04:52 AM
'Sunsetsoutheast.' Some of what you have said is true... but from,

" Now suppose Earth were to become non-rotational relative to the universe as it continued to revolve about the sun."

It becomes less clear... you lost me... before that we were fine.

but I am trying. So the 'Day' would be about 182. 6 days long... or 4382 hours long.. sort of a half year day.

Please do not correct my obtuse mathematics... I do not care.

(NB). Please note that the precision of mathematics becomes a nonsense as this is not a real calculation or even a attempt at one.

An extinction event... Life as we know it could not be sustained on such a planet... BUT, YES. the sun would rise from the Western horizon.

Nobody would see it. We all died.

There can be no such rolling over or stopping of this planet without considerable disruption to the Eco system we all require for survival...

Plate tectonics and atmospheric disturbances abounding...

I can not envisage such as being survivable at all. As only a collision of considerable mass objects could do this...

The end result is the same... We all died.

Its interesting that you've come into this and reopened such a old dead horse... No such event is going to happen.

I would like to understand from where this idea came ?... Mark, looking at a clearing sky.

sunsetsoutheast
2010-Sep-27, 06:09 AM
Drug references redacted.

(Try it now and let me know what you think.)

And that's when it came to me. I just knew the numbers wouldn't match. I mean, we all know the number of days in a year and we all know it is directly related to the fact that Earth spins on its axis relative to the sun. But I'm thinking, wait a minute, that ain't how many times it spins, it can't be.

I thought, what it it were to be somehow straight up twelve noon all the time in some particular place on Earth, maybe here (there where I was.) How would that look?

And I realized that could only happen if the earth wee to rotate at a rate of once per revolution about the sun such that when it made the full circle it still faced the same way toward the sun.

Perhaps I got this idea from the fact that Earth's moon faces us unchangingly as it rounds the planet. The difference would be that the light side of Earth would stay the same, unlike that of Luna which does i8ndeed change.

That must have been about 3 years ago. And since I've been off the Internet for about 6 years, only about one fifth of which reason has to do with involuntary incarceration (probably due more than anything to my not havng a crack attorney :) I am only now poking around (I refuse to surf) to see who else might have contemplated something similar. And so the first post I made was on gamefaqs.com as a response to some message about whether it would be 2013 when we all get to get down with the maker of our choice instead of 2012 like the Incans mistakenly believed. I said something about the 20 bakas of 13 days and how adding 11 days to 12/21/2012 made more sense to me.

And don't say, "I do not care." Say, "I intake air." And NEVER say, "idontcare". Just call, "txaport".

Do you understand?

Jim Worley
sunsetsoutheast@gmail.com

pzkpfw
2010-Sep-27, 07:06 AM
sunsetsoutheast, now would be a good time to check out our rules and advice threads (see below in my signature).

Your posts have been moved here due to the "2012 stuff". If you'd like the thread title changed, please report this post.

NickW
2010-Sep-27, 07:32 AM
First of all, you know how many days there are in a year. About 365.25. That's 24 hour periods from one point in space until the earth rounds the sun and returns to the same place.

Isnt the actual day 86,400 seconds + or - 1 millisecond? That would mean that amount of earth rotations per year are about 365.24219907407407407407... you get the point. I really don't see what you are getting at.


And you know that the earth rotates on its axis as it goes. So, do you know how many such rotations the earth experiences in the course of one year? Probably. But the correct answer is not equal to the number of days in a year.

See above, and also take into account why we add a leap year, and also why we will add leap seconds every so often.


Looking at the solar system from "above" and seeing Earth's North Pole, you would see it travelling around Sol in a counter-clockwise direction. You would also notice Earth is rotating counter-clockwise, as well. And with each rotation you would see that every point on the Equator experiences passing from darkness to sunlight and back to darkness with the passing of each revolution of Earth. Almost.

See above answers.


Now suppose Earth were to become non-rotational relative to the universe as it continued to revolve about the sun. Would you continue to see the effect of a sunrise and sunset (the terminator line) pass every point on the Equator of Earth? Yes. However, that terminator would then be moving in the opposite direction compared to the time when Earth stopped rotating 1/1/13 ). Not only that, but you would see that the length of that day/night period cycle is no longer about 24 hours, but abot 8766 hours. Which means you will then have to work about 2922 hours continuously before you can expect to be paid for overtime. The good news is you will get a very long rest when you get home from work in space.

I can agree on the length of the day IF that happened, but what is with the date?


But is there any reason to disregard this reverse sunrise/sunset given that Earth in fact does rotate on its axis (at least for another year )? Well, no. The effect does not cease to exist but merely becomes unapparent as it is offset by the greater number of cycles of the East/West sunrise /sunset. But that offset of the reverse day requires that it be cancelled by one rotation of Earth for which there is no corresponding E/W s/s day. Which means that the earth actually rotates about 366.25 times on its axis in a point to point spatial year.

Umm... no. I think history has proved that pretty well.

NickW
2010-Sep-27, 07:38 AM
And that's when it came to me. I just knew the numbers wouldn't match. I mean, we all know the number of days in a year and we all know it is directly related to the fact that Earth spins on its axis relative to the sun. But I'm thinking, wait a minute, that ain't how many times it spins, it can't be.

It took me just a couple of minutes to get the numbers with some research on orbital periods and axial rotation, then using a calculator. It is pretty apparent that they actually do match.


Perhaps I got this idea from the fact that Earth's moon faces us unchangingly as it rounds the planet. The difference would be that the light side of Earth would stay the same, unlike that of Luna which does i8ndeed change.

Look up tidal locking. It will help you understand why the Moons earthward face is unchanging (other then minor libations).



(I refuse to surf)

Then don't surf, research. It will help you out a lot.


as a response to some message about whether it would be 2013 when we all get to get down with the maker of our choice instead of 2012 like the Incans mistakenly believed. I said something about the 20 bakas of 13 days and how adding 11 days to 12/21/2012 made more sense to me.

I think you might be referring to the Mayans, and they didn't think they world would end on that date.


And don't say, "I do not care." Say, "I intake air." And NEVER say, "idontcare". Just call, "txaport".

I say you read what I said above.

eburacum45
2010-Sep-27, 09:45 AM
Take a look at this wiki page about Sidereal Time;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time

During the time needed by the Earth to complete a rotation around its axis (a sidereal day), the Earth moves a short distance (approximately 1) along its orbit around the sun. Therefore, after a sidereal day, the Earth still needs to rotate a small additional angular distance before the sun reaches its highest point. A solar day is, therefore, nearly 4 minutes longer than a sidereal day.
The stars, however, are so far away that the Earth's movement along its orbit makes a generally negligible difference to their apparent direction (see, however, parallax), and so they return to their highest point in a sidereal day. A sidereal day is almost 4 minutes shorter than a mean solar day.
Another way to see this difference is to notice that, relative to the stars, the Sun appears to move around the Earth once per year. Therefore, there is one less solar day per year than there are sidereal days. This makes a sidereal day approximately 365.24⁄366.24 times the length of the 24-hour solar day, giving approximately 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.1 seconds (86,164.1 seconds).

astromark
2010-Sep-27, 10:37 AM
Aagh ! Its the 2012 thing i... Its back... mark runs for the door and locks it.

I was foolish enough to join a conversation about what might make the sun appear to rise in the west,,,, but not this.

Donnie B.
2010-Sep-27, 11:59 AM
Look up tidal locking. It will help you understand why the Moons earthward face is unchanging (other then minor libations).

Reading this thread has produced the urge for some libations. Maybe even major ones.

NickW
2010-Sep-27, 02:29 PM
Reading this thread has produced the urge for some libations. Maybe even major ones.

:lol:

Gillianren
2010-Sep-27, 04:25 PM
I think we've established that libations are what started it.

Tenshu
2010-Sep-27, 10:09 PM
it's times like these i feel i don't belong here, cause I have no idea what the TC is talking about or how to comprehend such speech.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Sep-27, 10:15 PM
TC?

Tenshu
2010-Sep-27, 10:20 PM
Topic Creator for short.

pzkpfw
2010-Sep-27, 11:16 PM
That's also an off-topic post and need not have been made.

violentquaker
2010-Sep-28, 06:43 AM
I am confused, what is the conspiracy theory in this thread?

Gillianren
2010-Sep-28, 04:14 PM
Might it be an ATM idea instead? I'm having a hard time understanding the OP's posts.

Grey
2010-Sep-28, 04:46 PM
Actually, as far as I can tell, the OP has simply realized the difference between a solar and a sidereal year (he suggests calling the latter a "spatial year", probably not realizing that the idea isn't new, and there's already a perfectly good word for it), as eburacum45 points out. I can't tell why the OP thinks that's particularly significant, but that may be because this discussion was apparently split off from another thread, although the process of doing that seems to have gone awry, since the link to the other thread just links back to a duplicate of this one. It is pretty clever of him to have reasoned through the difference between a sidereal year and solar year on his own; sunsetsoutheast, is there particular reason for bringing it up? Pzkpfw, can you correct your link to go to the thread that this was really split from?

Swift
2010-Sep-28, 06:24 PM
I believe CT was selected because of the points about 2012.

Given the lack of participation by the OP, and the vague nature of their posts (to say the least), I'm closing this thread.

sunsetsoutheast, if you return and you wish to participate in this conversation, and explain what exactly your point is, please Report this post, and request the thread be reopened.