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jhwegener
2010-Oct-04, 06:53 PM
Un-manned rescue.

Perhaps we may wonder in this era of even more automatisation than before, that we hear relatively little about automatic or semi-automatic devices for rescuing purposes.
For various reasons we may believe manned rescuing operations may not be optimal in many situations. One may be personel may be expensive, so they cannot be everywhere. Another they may often put themselves in danger, so an unmanned device may be safer. Then it is also so they often have to prepare, using precious time. Rescuing People need to be transported, and demands space and energy to transport their weight if the operation is at some distance. So one should believe fully automatic "rescuing robots" or partially remote controlled or some combination things could often be the better solution?

NEOWatcher
2010-Oct-04, 08:06 PM
Maybe some specific application examples may help me see what you are thinking. I also assume you are talking about terrestrial applications.

I'm thinking that a big part of rescue is the high variability of conditions and the need to assess a situation. While there might be some instances where you might be able to send a drone or something to rescue someone, you still need the manned infrastructure for the majority.
Sea rescue might be an application, but you still need to handle the condition of the rescuee.

jhwegener
2010-Oct-05, 06:12 PM
Maybe some specific application examples may help me see what you are thinking. I also assume you are talking about terrestrial applications.

I'm thinking that a big part of rescue is the high variability of conditions and the need to assess a situation. While there might be some instances where you might be able to send a drone or something to rescue someone, you still need the manned infrastructure for the majority.
Sea rescue might be an application, but you still need to handle the condition of the rescuee.

Terrestrial applications may be relevant for us all, extraterrrestrial for extremely few.
I think there could be a wide variety of situations, and perhaps present technology may often only need to be modified a bit.
Unmanned aerial devices, varieies of "minihelicoptres" as an example, could be usefull to get information about accidents, and the cirkumstances, and how serious they are. They may allso transport some kind of help - medicine and emergency aid, perhaps firefighting equipment- both in cases of accidents at sea and perhaps traffic and other accidents where resquing personell may not be available before some time (scarce populated areas). Perhaps in some cases automatic devices may call for help, if people cannot (unconciousness or other reasons)? Underwater smallscale "devices" (to avoid calling them "U-boats" or "submarines") may locate people in water?
Smallsized self - moving devices for locating people underearth or destroyed structures.

JohnD
2010-Oct-05, 08:07 PM
It's hard enough to get a robot to recognise a model car and discriminate it from a face.
At present.
You want a robot to recognise a crashed aircraft crew or mountaineer, and work out which bits are the arms and legs, so that it can pick them up?
Without needing them to apply the basics of trauma life support.

Robot surveillance is possible - look for a vehicle, number so-and-so, or that is this shape and blue - and tell me when you find it.
But you have to tell it exactly what you want.
Artificial intelligence, so far, has been a false dawn, so you have to send a human, or at least have a human remote pilot.

John

jhwegener
2010-Oct-06, 04:27 PM
It's hard enough to get a robot to recognise a model car and discriminate it from a face.
At present.
You want a robot to recognise a crashed aircraft crew or mountaineer, and work out which bits are the arms and legs, so that it can pick them up?
Without needing them to apply the basics of trauma life support.

Robot surveillance is possible - look for a vehicle, number so-and-so, or that is this shape and blue - and tell me when you find it.
But you have to tell it exactly what you want.
Artificial intelligence, so far, has been a false dawn, so you have to send a human, or at least have a human remote pilot.

John

Then we should not ignore the possibillity of either partially or fully remote-controlled devices. Some tasks may be done automatically, while others may involve human interference.

NEOWatcher
2010-Oct-06, 04:56 PM
These devices already exist. They are evolutionary in design.
There are already unmanned surveillance drones. There's also autonomous ones (http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=751) being developed.
What about bomb disposal robots?

Sure; the possibility is there. In fact, the reality is there, but there is a limit from both practicality and perception.

I'm just not sure how much information you have been exposed to, or if you are expecting something more, or maybe I just don't understand where you're coming from. But; it does come across to me like you don't think it's happening in the areas where it is possible.

JohnD
2010-Oct-06, 06:00 PM
Neo,
My point exactly.
Bomb disposal robots, the British ARmy 'Wheelbarrow; for istance, are not autonomous. Ditto surveillance drones.

I think you raised this before, jhw, in very similar terms, and I among others replied in the same way.
Show us not what robots could do in the future; show us what they can do NOW.
Honestly, it's not much!

Today's Azerbaijan news web page has a featiure on the latest autonous (mostly) robots.
What can the most advanced do? Deliver a tray of drinks.
http://www.today.az/news/photo/60420.html

JOhn

jhwegener
2010-Oct-06, 07:30 PM
It is correct I have made some post about this topic before, and I have the idea that perhaps more could be done, but I may be wrong.
I will not deny the possibillity there has been some exaggeration about what robots can. On the other hand: much of the space adventure has been made by unmanned devices, including devices on other bodies, so at least there has been some applications. There may be other examples as well. Then we may ask if there may be parts of rescue operations, nto deserving that much intelligence. I see the basic part of such operations as rather well defined in most cases (important parts may perhaps be reduced to simple basic steps), but speed may be important ( a difficulty if there is not enough "manpower").

captain swoop
2010-Oct-06, 10:29 PM
So we send an unmanned mini helicopter to take a look then when it's had a look send a real helicopter with a crew in it to rescue someone?

Just recently a few miles away on the Sea Cliffs at Boulby an injured walker had to be lifted from a ledge on the cliff face where he had fallen. An RAF Sea Kinh had to hover with it's rotor blades about 8 feet away from the cliff face to winch a crewman down with a stretcher to get him to safety after he was stabilized by climbers from the Coast Guard cliff rescue team.

What good woulda remote drone have been?

Same with a crewman with a broken leg and crush injuroes who was lifted from a trawler recently off the coast. A Doctor was winched aboard with the crewman to stabilize and assess the injured man before he wasl ifted off.

jhwegener
2010-Oct-07, 03:18 PM
So we send an unmanned mini helicopter to take a look then when it's had a look send a real helicopter with a crew in it to rescue someone?

Just recently a few miles away on the Sea Cliffs at Boulby an injured walker had to be lifted from a ledge on the cliff face where he had fallen. An RAF Sea Kinh had to hover with it's rotor blades about 8 feet away from the cliff face to winch a crewman down with a stretcher to get him to safety after he was stabilized by climbers from the Coast Guard cliff rescue team.

What good woulda remote drone have been?

Same with a crewman with a broken leg and crush injuroes who was lifted from a trawler recently off the coast. A Doctor was winched aboard with the crewman to stabilize and assess the injured man before he wasl ifted off.
My answer may be put in this way: I have the idea an unmanned helicopter may be 1: be much lighter, since there is neither crew, nor any fascilities for them. 2: Perhaps often less expensive for some of the same reasons - plus they do not have to be trained, and "schooled". 3: The risk for the crews lives may dissapear(of course not if the only application for the unmanned device is receiving "SOS" and finding out were the the victims are to be found and the nearer cirkumstances).
I Remember the "Estonia" disater, were the rescuing helicoptres had great difficulties finding the victims in open, stormy sea. Could some automatic devices for localising and communation (wether from air or as underwater "searchdogs") assist in similar situations?
Could automatic or semi automatic devices be of any use to get people on board either rescuing helicopters, lifeboats or even some "underwater" lifeboat?