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Weltraum
2010-Oct-18, 09:34 PM
*queues up Sugar Red Drive's song "Velvet Leash" *

Good tune, but somehow I don't think even heavy metal will help the belivibility of most UFO reports. UFO's are kind of like Disco, someone kepts trying to bring them back into the limelight, but then after a night of pretending to be in Sat. Night Fever, people re-bury it and slink away, quietly, in shame.

Provided that there are genuine unexplained & inexplicable flying objects, poor evidence and a tough audience can both prove detrimental in being believed. Also, I'm saddened when I hear of an account from multiple witnesses, but photographic evidence is nonexistent, particularly because of the film being taken. I recently learned of an incident at an Australian school where that happened - a teacher's camera was taken after the event by whomever. Numerous students from the school claim to have seen craft land and take off. I know one fellow from personal correspondence - it was he who posted the story at another forum, in fact, and he was witness to this rather famous though suppressed incident. It's the "Westall incident" and one video about it can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjSBDQA6yg

The fellow I know has not been in any such program about it, though, as he's afraid of the reaction he'd receive. But there are over 200 witnesses, apparently.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-18, 09:43 PM
And here's something really odd I found on the site:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XdbkpqtE0Y

What could this be? I don't know of any object, man-made or natural, that would appear the way this thing does. Let it be clear that I'm not advocating alien visitation or anything here. I'm actually just really curious having seen this.

Having read the comments on the site, I'm leaning towards a bright satellite passing over with the atmosphere producing the "mist" via refraction.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Oct-18, 10:08 PM
That's the Falcon 9 spiral.

It's been discussed in multiple threads already.

Q&A: A Strange Spiral? (Old news since late of 2009) But still wondering (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/108626-A-Strange-Spiral-(Old-news-since-late-of-2009)-But-still-wondering)
Q&A: strange things happening in the sky (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/97857-strange-things-happening-in-the-sky)
CT: Norwegian spiral not Russian missile (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/98136-Norwegian-spiral-not-Russian-missile)
CT: Spiral Over Australia - Another Rocket? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/104640-Spiral-Over-Australia-Another-Rocket)

Garrison
2010-Oct-18, 10:11 PM
And here's something really odd I found on the site:

What could this be? I don't know of any object, man-made or natural, that would appear the way this thing does. Let it be clear that I'm not advocating alien visitation or anything here. I'm actually just really curious having seen this.

Having read the comments on the site, I'm leaning towards a bright satellite passing over with the atmosphere producing the "mist" via refraction.

I think you're close in that is in space but it's not a satellite, I'd place a modest wager that is the second stage from the first Falcon 9 launch, and having just Googled 'Falcon 9 first launch spiral' I'd have won the bet :) :

Falcon UFO's (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/05/oh-those-falcon-ufos/)

Garrison
2010-Oct-18, 10:19 PM
Provided that there are genuine unexplained & inexplicable flying objects, poor evidence and a tough audience can both prove detrimental in being believed. Also, I'm saddened when I hear of an account from multiple witnesses, but photographic evidence is nonexistent, particularly because of the film being taken. I recently learned of an incident at an Australian school where that happened - a teacher's camera was taken after the event by whomever. Numerous students from the school claim to have seen craft land and take off. I know one fellow from personal correspondence - it was he who posted the story at another forum, in fact, and he was witness to this rather famous though suppressed incident. It's the "Westall incident" and one video about it can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjSBDQA6yg

The fellow I know has not been in any such program about it, though, as he's afraid of the reaction he'd receive. But there are over 200 witnesses, apparently.

You see the problem there is that all we have is the fact that a lot of people saw something in the sky and the only evidence of 'suppression' is that one person alleges that their evidence was taken away. BTW that last claim is one that's hard to swallow for any incident this century. With the spread of camera phones and their ability to instantly send images the prospects for information suppression are growing rather slim.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-18, 10:33 PM
You see the problem there is that all we have is the fact that a lot of people saw something in the sky and the only evidence of 'suppression' is that one person alleges that their evidence was taken away. BTW that last claim is one that's hard to swallow for any incident this century. With the spread of camera phones and their ability to instantly send images the prospects for information suppression are growing rather slim.

The incident in question was some 44 years ago, and it involved craft that landed rather than simply something in the sky. I believe my source for the story, the fellow I've communicated with personally. He doesn't strike me as one to make things up.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-18, 10:36 PM
I think you're close in that is in space but it's not a satellite, I'd place a modest wager that is the second stage from the first Falcon 9 launch, and having just Googled 'Falcon 9 first launch spiral' I'd have won the bet :) :

Falcon UFO's (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/05/oh-those-falcon-ufos/)

That Falcon 9 is an odd-looking bird! That gas spiral must be up in space together with the stage, and that would almost seem counter-intuitive. I'd expect gas to quickly dissipate and be invisible.

This also gets me thinking... If space travel becomes something as common as modern jet travel, there'll be a new problem of "sky pollution" to contend with, i.e. you won't be able to look up at the stars without all the craft and junk up there interfering.

Garrison
2010-Oct-18, 10:45 PM
That Falcon 9 is an odd-looking bird! That gas spiral must be up in space together with the stage, and that would almost seem counter-intuitive. I'd expect gas to quickly dissipate and be invisible.

This also gets me thinking... If space travel becomes something as common as modern jet travel, there'll be a new problem of "sky pollution" to contend with, i.e. you won't be able to look up at the stars without all the craft and junk up there interfering.

Well this was a particular minor issue with the second stage, that it developed a spin as it was slowly leaking left over propellant so it persisted for quite some time. It shouldn't really be a more general issue.

Swift
2010-Oct-18, 10:50 PM
This also gets me thinking... If space travel becomes something as common as modern jet travel, there'll be a new problem of "sky pollution" to contend with, i.e. you won't be able to look up at the stars without all the craft and junk up there interfering.
Maybe as common as car travel and we'd have a problem, but jet travel, I doubt it. The jets are already up there - have they been blocking the view? And there is a lot of satellites in Earth orbit already, you can see one or several almost any clear night anywhere on Earth. I think it neat to see one go by, but I can't say they are sky pollution.

Gillianren
2010-Oct-18, 11:43 PM
The incident in question was some 44 years ago, and it involved craft that landed rather than simply something in the sky. I believe my source for the story, the fellow I've communicated with personally. He doesn't strike me as one to make things up.

And if that were the only possible avenue for an untrue story, that would mean something.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-19, 05:58 AM
And if that were the only possible avenue for an untrue story, that would mean something.

What? I have his word about it and then the pubicised bits, an example of which I linked earlier.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-19, 06:01 AM
Maybe as common as car travel and we'd have a problem, but jet travel, I doubt it. The jets are already up there - have they been blocking the view? And there is a lot of satellites in Earth orbit already, you can see one or several almost any clear night anywhere on Earth. I think it neat to see one go by, but I can't say they are sky pollution.

There can be an awful lot of jet trails in the sky, actually, at least depending on where you live. I've seen multiple jet liners in the sky at a time, too. Speaking of satellites, right now they're not thick enough to always be visible above. But then, not all satellites are easily visible from Earth either, depending on distance and other factors. A lot of commercial space traffic would have much more potential to not only make live craft more regularly visible, but any bits and bobs they may leave in orbit as well. Just a thought.

Strange
2010-Oct-19, 12:00 PM
What? I have his word about it and then the pubicised bits, an example of which I linked earlier.

As that was a YouTube link which many (me!) don't have access to, here is a more accessible discussion: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4208

NEOWatcher
2010-Oct-19, 12:28 PM
It's the "Westall incident" and one video about it can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjSBDQA6yg

Did you watch the whole video, or did you only concentrate on the witness reports?
Did you ignore the part about the weather balloon? Can you understand why the military would be concerned over the secrecy if it were a secret project.
1) You've got impressionable schoolchildren. Any mystery put into thier head at the time will have lasting effects.
2) You have a teacher that says it's no aircraft that she knows about. How certain is she that she was familiar with all craft at the time? What leads her to the conclusion that it wasn't something terrestrial that she's never seen before?

Swift
2010-Oct-19, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gillianren
Originally Posted by Weltraum
The incident in question was some 44 years ago, and it involved craft that landed rather than simply something in the sky. I believe my source for the story, the fellow I've communicated with personally. He doesn't strike me as one to make things up.

And if that were the only possible avenue for an untrue story, that would mean something.
What? I have his word about it and then the pubicised bits, an example of which I linked earlier.
I don't think Gillianren is doubting that your source may sincerely believe what they are saying. He didn't "make it up" in the sense that he deliberately fabricated a story he knows to be fiction.

But eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Multiple witnesses can see something as mundane as a traffic accident, and give very different accounts of what they saw, even within a short time of the event. Decades after the event, those accounts become even less reliable. There is a lot of gray area between an eyewitnesses' account being the absolute truth and an out-right lie.

To prove something as extraordinary as a ET landing on Earth requires extraordinary evidence. Eyewitness account are just never going to be good enough evidence of such a thing, IMHO.

Swift
2010-Oct-19, 02:59 PM
I have split this discussion off of the UFO shutsdown airport thread (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=1804293#post1804293), as it didn't seem to relate directly to that topic.

Weltraum, if you have a better title for this thread, or you think the split was inappropriate, please Report this post.

Gillianren
2010-Oct-19, 05:42 PM
I don't think Gillianren is doubting that your source may sincerely believe what they are saying.

Quite. The example I give is my clear memory of Ronald Reagan's funeral. And to be fair, when Ronald Reagan died, I watched a lot of CNN, which got pretty silly in places. However, in about 1997, I made a comment about Ronald Reagan's being dead, because I remembered images from his funeral. How do I remember them? I have no idea. My brain provided me with those images, probably from Nixon's funeral. Am I making them up? For very broad definitions, yes. But I didn't do it on purpose. And at that, I can provide much less extreme examples.

gzhpcu
2010-Oct-19, 06:04 PM
What? I have his word about it and then the pubicised bits, an example of which I linked earlier.

"Having his word for it" is somewhat akin to the "appeal to authortiy" argument, which is not valid. This is why, for example, while admiring astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, believing the Roswell incident actually happened, based on his statements, is also not valid.

Garrison
2010-Oct-19, 06:31 PM
Quite. The example I give is my clear memory of Ronald Reagan's funeral. And to be fair, when Ronald Reagan died, I watched a lot of CNN, which got pretty silly in places. However, in about 1997, I made a comment about Ronald Reagan's being dead, because I remembered images from his funeral. How do I remember them? I have no idea. My brain provided me with those images, probably from Nixon's funeral. Am I making them up? For very broad definitions, yes. But I didn't do it on purpose. And at that, I can provide much less extreme examples.

Try sitting around the table at Xmas dinner with your sibling's and recalling childhood events. Often they'll recount something I supposedly did, usually while fighting with them, and genuinely I have no clue what they are talking about. And of course the opposite is often true as well but I bet they are just lying. :)

Gillianren
2010-Oct-19, 07:40 PM
My older sister just assumes I'm right. I'm known in the family for having the best memory. Though, of course, if I say she did something wrong, that's obviously a failing in my memory, not her behaviour.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Oct-19, 07:56 PM
"Having his word for it" is somewhat akin to the "appeal to authortiy" argument, which is not valid. This is why, for example, while admiring astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, believing the Roswell incident actually happened, based on his statements, is also not valid.
Based on his statements taken out of context and misquoted by true believers even. :)

Elliprof2
2010-Oct-20, 12:29 PM
That is so interesting. It's too bad the tapes where gone. I only wish I had the opportunity of witnessing something like that. It would definitely keep my curiosity levels soaring.

Tedward
2010-Oct-20, 04:04 PM
I would not know much about it but Woomera is not far as the crow flies (800 odd miles if I read google maps right). They were testing rockets during the 60's. Map has it around North Easterly direction.

eburacum45
2010-Oct-21, 03:31 PM
Actually I did witness something very like this, and perhaps by coincidence, (perhaps not) it was in 1966 too. My friends and I were playing in the street, in Leyton, East London, (where as a 10-year-old, I lived at the time) when one of us noticed a white disk in the sky, We watched it for a long time, even pointing out to other people (including adults), and it slowly descended into the trees of Epping Forest, becoming more oblate and disk-like as it descended. By this time we were convinced it was a flying saucer- it was, after all, airborne, and disc-shaped.

Just before it landed my much older brother turned up and identified it as a weather balloon. To this day I'm not sure why I believed him, but this object had been visible for so long that I had started to doubt that it could have been an alien spacecraft, and the everyday explanation seemed much more credible. But some or many of my friends still believed they saw a flying saucer that day, and in many ways they did.

This sighting is so close in many details to the first part of the Westall incident, both in date and in appearance, that I have no doubt that the first part of that incident is explainable. Apparently, slowly descending weather balloons were common enough in that era that more than a few people were fooled into thinking they were seeing extraterrestrial spacecraft. Other people, my brother apparently among them, were familiar enough with them to identify them correctly.

My friends and I spent the rest of that year looking for UFOs, but I think that incident and its easy explanation probably started me on the road to becoming a sceptic.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-24, 10:43 AM
I don't think Gillianren is doubting that your source may sincerely believe what they are saying. He didn't "make it up" in the sense that he deliberately fabricated a story he knows to be fiction.

But eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Multiple witnesses can see something as mundane as a traffic accident, and give very different accounts of what they saw, even within a short time of the event. Decades after the event, those accounts become even less reliable. There is a lot of gray area between an eyewitnesses' account being the absolute truth and an out-right lie.

To prove something as extraordinary as a ET landing on Earth requires extraordinary evidence. Eyewitness account are just never going to be good enough evidence of such a thing, IMHO.

Oh yes, I concur completely. I refuse to accept anything that isn't reasonably documented and understandable. I don't know what to think about the reported strange craft at Westall, except to say that people report seeing something extraordinary. I'm not about to say that it's alien craft and all you doubters be darned! Arrrgh!! :) I don't know what to believe about it myself.

I did watch a whole special about it, and in that special, it was even claimed by at least one of the witnesses that a girl approached those craft while the others didn't, and she was never seen again. That raises a big red flag for me, since we're then talking about a missing person. I have no idea whether any record exists to corroborate that. The fellow I've communicated with personally didn't make mention of that, though I also didn't think to ask him.

At any rate, if there is any reality to these UFO encounters, Westall or otherwise, it's just a shame if an extraordinary event like this is unknown and unprovable simply because no one was able to get a lasting set of photos or video. Imagine having to live with this extraordinary experience and not having the evidence to back it up. Heck, I can even relate - one time I saw a weird head-shaped cloud. Basically a pareidolic upside-down head with a face looking something like the Michelin man, as memory serves. I had no camera and it's lost but for my memory. That stinks! Heck, I can't even be sure of what I saw now.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-24, 10:45 AM
Try sitting around the table at Xmas dinner with your sibling's and recalling childhood events. Often they'll recount something I supposedly did, usually while fighting with them, and genuinely I have no clue what they are talking about. And of course the opposite is often true as well but I bet they are just lying. :)

Hm, I've had memory of things that my siblings have done that they don't recall, and vice versa. It's funny how memory works.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-24, 10:46 AM
Based on his statements taken out of context and misquoted by true believers even. :)

Heh heh.. When the troofers get a hold of someone's words, they can make just about anything of them. The way they warp and twist images and words can be astounding, though I mostly just find it incredibly aggravating! :D

Garrison
2010-Oct-24, 12:07 PM
Oh yes, I concur completely. I refuse to accept anything that isn't reasonably documented and understandable. I don't know what to think about the reported strange craft at Westall, except to say that people report seeing something extraordinary. I'm not about to say that it's alien craft and all you doubters be darned! Arrrgh!! :) I don't know what to believe about it myself.

I did watch a whole special about it, and in that special, it was even claimed by at least one of the witnesses that a girl approached those craft while the others didn't, and she was never seen again. That raises a big red flag for me, since we're then talking about a missing person. I have no idea whether any record exists to corroborate that. The fellow I've communicated with personally didn't make mention of that, though I also didn't think to ask him.


This illustrates a problem with these kind of anecdotal stories, that they become embellished with ever greater detail designed to reinforce the extraordinary nature of the event. I strongly suspect that if you looked at original interviews conducted at the time there will be no mention of the missing girl, and descriptions of the event will be a lot less detailed. Over time either consciously or unconsciously it grows more detailed as stories are shared and memory is shaped by what people want to remember.
Maybe at some point one of the kids got bored and wandered off, providing the seed of the disappearance story.

R.A.F.
2010-Oct-24, 03:40 PM
Oh yes, I concur completely. I refuse to accept anything that isn't reasonably documented and understandable. I don't know what to think about the reported strange craft at Westall, except to say that people report seeing something extraordinary. I'm not about to say that it's alien craft and all you doubters be darned! Arrrgh!! :) I don't know what to believe about it myself.

Yet in post #227 you wrote...


The incident in question was some 44 years ago, and it involved craft that landed rather than simply something in the sky. I believe my source for the story, the fellow I've communicated with personally. He doesn't strike me as one to make things up.

So your opinion is that some type of "craft" landed which seems diametrically opposed to "I refuse to accept anything that isn't reasonably documented..."

eburacum45
2010-Oct-24, 08:23 PM
This illustrates a problem with these kind of anecdotal stories, that they become embellished with ever greater detail designed to reinforce the extraordinary nature of the event. This is true. I can't provide proof any particular detail of my own story from 1966, and my brother remembers nothing about it, so it may be inaccurate in many respects.

Weltraum
2010-Oct-25, 05:35 AM
Yet in post #227 you wrote...



So your opinion is that some type of "craft" landed which seems diametrically opposed to "I refuse to accept anything that isn't reasonably documented..."

Very good point. I should rephrase that to say that I trust my source, in that I don't think he was purposely making anything up. I knew him before he ever brought up Westall and he just seems like a good guy. Not that any of that is important in arguing for or against claims of an historical event, since evidence is what matters.