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Infinitenight2093
2010-Oct-26, 08:19 PM
Concerning the famous shrodinger's cat paradox, I believe that consciousness determines itself. It is not the observation of the man outside the box, it is the observation of the cat itself that determines its own existence. Consciousness needs no outside observer. However, because all things consist of wave functions, that forces us (or at least me) to conclude that we all live in separate realities in which each consciousness determines its own path. unless of course, the cat's fate was predetermined by initial conditions of the big bang. If all things in the universe are entangled by faster than light connections, then it could be said that events on the opposite end of the universe determined the cat's fate. In effect the universe determined the cat's fate. In this scenario, events are laid out by initial conditions that existed at the Big Bang and spread out into massive webs of chain reactions that would eventually lead me to be writing this paragraph at this moment. (However, if there were even the slightest differences during the first moments everything may be totally different today) In the most basic sense, I am doing what I am doing now because of the way that everything in the universe has affected me, and I in turn have also affected everything in the universe. (events in time are like pieces of a cosmic puzzle, that if placed in certain ways will have certain results) However, this raises the question: can we still choose our own fates, do we have free will if our futures have been predetermined since creation? I believe that the answer to that question is still yes and no. Even though our past and present conditions may have been the outcome of chain reactions since the beginning of our universe, we can still choose our own futures because they are undetermined to us. In our minds, the future is still a wave function. The past, present and future are all intertwined. The past not only creates the future but the future helps create the past. So, we are “free” to choose our own path through life in a predetermined universe because the past is connected to the future which is connected to the past.

AstroRockHunter
2010-Oct-26, 08:28 PM
A nice example of circular reasoning.

And your ATM is???

Infinitenight2093
2010-Oct-26, 08:58 PM
my ATM is predetermination vs. randomness. I believe that all things that happen are the outcomes of cause and effect since the big bang, every event can be traced back to another event until all events finally reach the ultimate event, the big bang. I also don't see where you get circular reasoning from my OP

AstroRockHunter
2010-Oct-26, 09:12 PM
... Consciousness needs no outside observer. However, because all things consist of wave functions, that forces us (or at least me) to conclude that we all live in separate realities in which each consciousness determines its own path. unless of course, the cat's fate was predetermined by initial conditions of the big bang. If all things in the universe are entangled by faster than light connections, then it could be said that events on the opposite end of the universe determined the cat's fate. ... I am doing what I am doing now because of the way that everything in the universe has affected me, and I in turn have also affected everything in the universe. ... However, this raises the question: can we still choose our own fates, do we have free will if our futures have been predetermined since creation? I believe that the answer to that question is still yes and no. Even though our past and present conditions may have been the outcome of chain reactions since the beginning of our universe, we can still choose our own futures because they are undetermined to us. In our minds, the future is still a wave function. The past, present and future are all intertwined. The past not only creates the future but the future helps create the past. So, we are “free” to choose our own path through life in a predetermined universe because the past is connected to the future which is connected to the past.

These are your statements that led me to think that this is an example of circular reasoning.

PetersCreek
2010-Oct-26, 09:27 PM
Infinitenight2093,

Just to be clear...are you prepared to defend your ATM proposition with evidence or some other manner of substantive support? Under rule 13, you bear a burden to do so in the ATM forum. This isn't the place to simply espouse philosophical beliefs.

Strange
2010-Oct-26, 09:28 PM
my ATM is predetermination vs. randomness. I believe that all things that happen are the outcomes of cause and effect since the big bang, every event can be traced back to another event until all events finally reach the ultimate event, the big bang. I also don't see where you get circular reasoning from my OP

But with things like the Heisenberg uncertainty principles, ideas from chaos theory, etc. it would seem that the future can't be predicted even in principle (not even by the universe itself). So the future is non-determinstic. Which, as far as I know, says nothing about free will.

caveman1917
2010-Oct-27, 12:44 AM
In this scenario, events are laid out by initial conditions that existed at the Big Bang and spread out into massive webs of chain reactions that would eventually lead me to be writing this paragraph at this moment.

You may find superdeterminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism) interesting.


do we have free will if our futures have been predetermined since creation?

For this you may find compatibilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism) interesting, along with its counterpart incompatibilism.

In general, your main idea is plausible but it rests on which interpretation one gives to the scientific models that exist. As PetersCreek remarked this is a philosophical stance (which may or may not be correct - there is no way to tell (as of yet?)).

John Jaksich
2010-Oct-27, 01:08 AM
I have heard of a pre-determining your own actions and planning how a person may want to react to a certain set of previously "seen" actions---but in the end, to quote Niels Bohr --- in response to Einstein's famous response about "playing dice"---No one can tell what the Universe to or not to do---

WayneFrancis
2010-Oct-27, 05:04 AM
my ATM is predetermination vs. randomness. I believe that all things that happen are the outcomes of cause and effect since the big bang, every event can be traced back to another event until all events finally reach the ultimate event, the big bang. I also don't see where you get circular reasoning from my OP

Don't mistake probabilistic with random. Even QM isn't random it is probabilistic. Even then you don't need to be at the subatomic realm to see quantum effects show its head but even when we do see it the overall pattern isn't random but still probabilistic.

fcunnane
2010-Oct-31, 02:23 PM
So what about the "Brain In A Vat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat)" element with this one...

I would imagine that the brain would be surprised to find out that it is sitting on a shelf in a vat being maintained by a scientist...

How does the "Brain In A Vat" element, where the brain only knows what it knows, affect your pre-determination once the brain is subjected to knowing it's in a vat?

Eric12407
2010-Oct-31, 02:53 PM
Concerning the famous shrodinger's cat paradox, I believe that consciousness determines itself. It is not the observation of the man outside the box, it is the observation of the cat itself that determines its own existence. Consciousness needs no outside observer. However, because all things consist of wave functions, that forces us (or at least me) to conclude that we all live in separate realities in which each consciousness determines its own path. unless of course, the cat's fate was predetermined by initial conditions of the big bang. If all things in the universe are entangled by faster than light connections, then it could be said that events on the opposite end of the universe determined the cat's fate. In effect the universe determined the cat's fate. In this scenario, events are laid out by initial conditions that existed at the Big Bang and spread out into massive webs of chain reactions that would eventually lead me to be writing this paragraph at this moment. (However, if there were even the slightest differences during the first moments everything may be totally different today) In the most basic sense, I am doing what I am doing now because of the way that everything in the universe has affected me, and I in turn have also affected everything in the universe. (events in time are like pieces of a cosmic puzzle, that if placed in certain ways will have certain results) However, this raises the question: can we still choose our own fates, do we have free will if our futures have been predetermined since creation? I believe that the answer to that question is still yes and no. Even though our past and present conditions may have been the outcome of chain reactions since the beginning of our universe, we can still choose our own futures because they are undetermined to us. In our minds, the future is still a wave function. The past, present and future are all intertwined. The past not only creates the future but the future helps create the past. So, we are “free” to choose our own path through life in a predetermined universe because the past is connected to the future which is connected to the past.

Yes .. I agree ...
Some things are predetermined .. such as the evolution of the universe and the appearance of conscious beings with the capacity to ponder the meaning of the outer and inner realities.
And I would also include the ultimate destiny of the human species ... which will evolve infinitely amongst the infinite universe ...

But as you say ... your own path amongst the river that carries us all forward ...that is .. your moral choices and decisions regarding justice, equity ... right and wrong. This is the personal journey.

The universe is our classroom ... and the essence of our lives is what we learn from it ... Both materially and spiritually.

ERic ....

PetersCreek
2010-Oct-31, 03:59 PM
Since the OP has not seen fit to answer my purple question, nor post in defense of his proposition since that time, this thread is closed. Infinitenight2093, if decide to defend your OP according to the rules, report this post to ask that the thread be reopened.