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Bewildered
2004-Apr-19, 12:50 PM
Hoagland's latest epic (with links to pages 2 and 3 at the bottom!)

www.enterprisemission.com/_articles/04-13-2004/Methane_on_Mars.htm

[nb. cut and paste link]

Gmann
2004-Apr-19, 01:51 PM
I still don't get it. Why would NASA hide the "fact" that there is life on Mars? NASA would stand to get Billions in funding for new research including manned missions. I guess they don't want it, that's like someone saying "don't give me the winning Powerball numbers, I like my minimum wage job". Give me a break, NASA would love nothing more than to prove that claim, but it comes at a cost... they better be right. IMHO that is what they are doing, not making a claim until they are reasonably certain that it is true. Give it time, if there is/was life on Mars, they will find it and tell everyone.

R.A.F.
2004-Apr-19, 02:05 PM
Why would NASA hide the "fact" that there is life on Mars?

That's one of the things that really "cracks me up" about these "folks". NASA is "hiding" the evidence...but, if tomorrow, NASA were to say that they found evidence of life, Hoagland would be "crowing" about how right he was. My question...do "these folks" believe NASA only when it suits their "purpose"?? Appearently.

ToSeek
2004-Apr-19, 02:09 PM
If pinned down, Hoagland and the like will start saying things about the Brookings Report, a document written when NASA had just formed to provide some guidance. There's one mention in the document of the possibility that discovering extraterrestrial life could disrupt society on Earth. Even though no one but the Hoaglandites even mentions this document any more, they maintain that NASA is governed by it.

SciFi Chick
2004-Apr-19, 04:49 PM
It's worse than that. Not only is NASA supposedly covering up life on Mars, but they're doing a horrible job of it. I mean, why would they release photos of all these "artificial" structures if they were trying to keep them a secret?

Why is someone like Hoagland able to figure it out just by looking at the pictures when the rest of us see rocks?

I mean, let's take a show like The X-Files. Mulder and Scully did not just sit around looking at pictures. They investigated in person. In movies, things happen that convince the protagonist he's on to something.

If the military wants to cover something up, they can, and they don't have to sneak to do it. Just stamp it Top Secret, and you're done.

This is turning into a ramble. I can't quite find the words I'm looking for. I just think that all of the woo woos call their interpretation of ordinary events evidence for something extraordinary.

It's not like any of them have ever seen these men in black, or gotten any actual hard evidence of aliens. Scully ended up with an implant. It could be verified. That would be evidence. Heck, she was still skeptical. :)

iFire
2004-Apr-19, 04:51 PM
I googled for the document to see what it contained, but the first three sites I got were TEM, a college named Brooking, and Zetatalk... I ran and hid after that...

ToSeek
2004-Apr-19, 05:18 PM
I googled for the document to see what it contained, but the first three sites I got were TEM, a college named Brooking, and Zetatalk... I ran and hid after that...

Someone has scanned the entire document onto the Web here (http://www.gaiaguys.net/brookings.pdf). (Warning: large PDF file.)

ToSeek
2004-Apr-19, 05:21 PM
It's worse than that. Not only is NASA supposedly covering up life on Mars, but they're doing a horrible job of it. I mean, why would they release photos of all these "artificial" structures if they were trying to keep them a secret?



Well, you see there are the NASA good guys (who favor disclosure) and the NASA bad guys (who oppose it). What gets released depends on who has the upper hand at the moment. (I'm not making this up - Hoagland actually says this.)

Conveniently, this makes for an undisprovable hypothesis: if photos don't show signs of life, artificiality, etc., then obviously they've been airbrushed by the bad guys (or the revealing photos have been suppressed). If they do, then the good guys have managed to get some information out.

sts60
2004-Apr-19, 05:25 PM
It's worse than that. Not only is NASA supposedly covering up life on Mars, but they're doing a horrible job of it. I mean, why would they release photos of all these "artificial" structures if they were trying to keep them a secret?
All part of the deception.


Why is someone like Hoagland able to figure it out just by looking at the pictures when the rest of us see rocks?
Because you're part of the deception.


I mean, let's take a show like The X-Files. Mulder and Scully did not just sit around looking at pictures. They investigated in person. In movies, things happen that convince the protagonist he's on to something.
M: "Let's go, Scully! We've got a vague, unsubstantiated report of an alien visitation in Springfield!"
S: "But, Mulder! There's a huge shipment of guns and drugs coming in from Colombia tonight!"
M: (rolls eyes) "Scully, I hardly think the FBI is interested in that!"
- inaccurately, from The Simpsons


If the military wants to cover something up, they can, and they don't have to sneak to do it. Just stamp it Top Secret, and you're done.
Not if it's big enough and weird enough.


This is turning into a ramble. I can't quite find the words I'm looking for. I just think that all of the woo woos call their interpretation of ordinary events evidence for something extraordinary.
*Sigh* spoken, again, like a true member of the NASA-CIA-UN-Masonic conspiracy...


It's not like any of them have ever seen these men in black, or gotten any actual hard evidence of aliens. Scully ended up with an implant. It could be verified. That would be evidence. Heck, she was still skeptical. :)
Ever noticed how the sole role of a skeptic in any movie or TV show is to be proven wrong (well, sometimes they get killed too)? The entertainment industry is determinedly and blissfully credulous of all things woo-woo.

SciFi Chick
2004-Apr-19, 05:36 PM
Ever noticed how the sole role of a skeptic in any movie or TV show is to be proven wrong (well, sometimes they get killed too)? The entertainment industry is determinedly and blissfully credulous of all things woo-woo.

I was all ready with my bag of snappy rejoinders when I realized you're on to something. What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.

At first, I thought, it's much more exciting if the aliens are real or the supernatural happens, and there's definitely a place for that, but we need a blockbuster story about a skeptic.


...wanders off muttering to herself about a great idea for a story. :-k

Swift
2004-Apr-19, 06:50 PM
I was all ready with my bag of snappy rejoinders when I realized you're on to something. What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.

At first, I thought, it's much more exciting if the aliens are real or the supernatural happens, and there's definitely a place for that, but we need a blockbuster story about a skeptic.


...wanders off muttering to herself about a great idea for a story. :-k
I love the idea, but Hollywood would go bankrupt on ideas I love. The masses don't want that (or at least Hollywood thinks that and will continue to act accordingly as long as they make money). Look at "Reality" TV. What part of reality involves eatting squid eyes, being stranded on a South Pacific island, or trying to date a fashion model. I would love them to make a reality TV program based on my life, you'd spend 10 hours a day in meetings or writing reports and then have an hour commute home. Please, someone vote me off!

Irishman
2004-Apr-19, 07:24 PM
SciFi Chick said:

What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.

I've got it! Let's make a snappy, funny, Saturday morning cartoon. We'll have this hip group of young adults travel around the country investigating mysteries. There will be ghosts and goblins and zombies and monsters. The group of mystery investigators will poke around and stir up trouble, having all sorts of fun antics, and then at the end they will unravel the mystery and find the cause is invariably some hoaxer with malicious intent. And let's give them a dog - kids love dogs. But let's make it a talking dog. You know what would be really funny, if the dog and his best buddy are really scaredy cats, and totally fooled through the whole thing, and it's the other friends that piece together the clues to solve the mystery. Now we just need a name for this show. Hmmm, any ideas? ;)

Proof positive of the Hollywood mindset. The one skeptical show out there, and now they're doing remakes where there really are monsters. And let's not get started on the movie/s. They're more about the pop culture references about the show than the show itself (Shaggy and Scooby are stoners, Fred is a dumb pretty boy jock, Daphne is a ditzy chick, etc.)

Er, "the show" being Scooby Doo. I figured everyone would get the reference, but maybe not.

SciFi Chick
2004-Apr-19, 07:30 PM
What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.


As soon as I wrote that, I knew someone would come up with an example. Scooby Doo is an excellent example btw. =D>

My real point is that we need a modern, action-filled, exciting movie that celebrates critical thinking.

Swift
2004-Apr-19, 07:35 PM
What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.


As soon as I wrote that, I knew someone would come up with an example. Scooby Doo is an excellent example btw. =D>

My real point is that we need a modern, action-filled, exciting movie that celebrates critical thinking.
Myth-Busters? (on Discovery Channel)
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/mythbusters.html

SciFi Chick
2004-Apr-19, 07:38 PM
Myth-Busters? (on Discovery Channel)
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/mythbusters.html

Naw. Stuff is more palatable to people if it's in a ficitonal form. Of course, CSI is one of the most popular shows on television. So is Law & Order in its varous incarnations - so there is hope. 8)

aurora
2004-Apr-19, 09:45 PM
I've got it! Let's make a snappy, funny, Saturday morning cartoon. We'll have this hip group of young adults travel around the country investigating mysteries.


So our one hero so far is Velma?

Surely there must be another one in popular fiction somewhere...

Swift
2004-Apr-19, 09:58 PM
BA-MAN
Faster than a speeding HBer
More powerful than a loco PXer
Able to debunk tall tales in a single bound
And who, disguised as Dr. Phil, mild-manner astronomer at a great american university, fights an never ending battle for truth, justice, and the astronomical way!
:roll:

mike alexander
2004-Apr-19, 11:51 PM
But you missed the part that goes:

LOOK!
UP IN THE SKY!
IT'S A BIRD!
IT'S A PLANE!

IT'S.....

well, it's just venus....

freddo
2004-Apr-20, 12:27 AM
Mars is melting!!
I thought the term was sublimating.

This newest article is interesting. I get the impression that this one is so immense mainly for the purpose of making it impossible to debunk all at once.
He's still clinging to the green Gusev crater picture - although Don Davis is now being credited with the Odyssey version of the image.

So obviously he knows BA 8) is keeping a bit of a watch on what's written - and figures if he writes enough rubbish - he can stay out of reach.

tuffel999
2004-Apr-20, 12:34 AM
Look at "Reality" TV. What part of reality involves eatting squid eyes, being stranded on a South Pacific island, or trying to date a fashion model. I would love them to make a reality TV program based on my life, you'd spend 10 hours a day in meetings or writing reports and then have an hour commute home. Please, someone vote me off!

Mark Burnnett hates that term reality tv. He prefers his shows be called unscripted dramas. Now for some trivia, he was also a paratrooper in the Falklands.

JohnOwens
2004-Apr-20, 07:58 AM
What we need is a movie where the skeptic is the hero.

At first, I thought, it's much more exciting if the aliens are real or the supernatural happens, and there's definitely a place for that, but we need a blockbuster story about a skeptic.
Contact? :wink: It's debatable who's the skeptic and who isn't, but skepticism is certainly a central theme.

P.S. And I love Mythbusters too. :D

Irishman
2004-Apr-20, 02:13 PM
Contact is a good movie and on the right track. But it still essentially has the situation that the paranormal event mentioned is real.

I agree that "Reality TV" is a misnomer. There is already a label for the format where real people compete for money and prizes. They're called Game Shows. Think about it - Fear Factor, The Bachelor, Top Model, Average Joe, Survivor - they're all competitions.

SciFiChick, I agree we need more.