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DCAX1114
2010-Nov-30, 03:18 AM
I have wondered for some time about the Lid of Palenque, the sarcophagus cover that was found in Mexico. I attached the site for picture not content below. I like the image because it sets the lid in relief to make it easier to see.

So my question is what does our night sky look like at the spots where there is an event in the lid?

Briefly described, as I understand it, the lid shows Lord Pacal and the Maya belief that life sprang from the dark rift. Locate the dark rift at the middle of the tree of life on the lid, just below the branch cross. Now find down the left hand side of the tree the moment of life where the soul (represented by the no-legged little circle and dot-headed man, with ears) is joined to the body (represented by the fruit dropping from the tree of life). Notice how the creatures climb up the left side of the tree to be hung by seven feather macaw in the nighttime.

What does the sky look like at the actual moment of life creation (represented by the circle with four surrounding balls on top of an x)?

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http://www.philzone.com/interviews/jose/jose.html

Jens
2010-Nov-30, 06:06 AM
What does the sky look like at the actual moment of life creation (represented by the circle with four surrounding balls on top of an x)?


I'm not sure exactly what you are meaning to ask. The picture seems to be decorative rather than a photo or anything like that. What do you mean by "what does the sky look like"?

DCAX1114
2010-Nov-30, 07:31 AM
I marked out what I mean in the lid by way of locations
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Red-7 Feather Macaw
Purple- Great rift
Yellow- Ecliptic of sun
Green- Stages of incarnation
Blue- Spot in question

I propose that perhaps the Maya had reasons for their observations beyond pinpointing a precise date in Earth's history. This is not a 2012 theory which doesn't fit with the way people thought back then. It is a theory examining the astronomy of mythology. Maybe the Maya's purpose was to describe space rather than time. Maybe it was a mixed bag.

I think this is a photograph of the lid. As far as I can tell, the general image has been reproduced with no variation besides clarity; Mr. Maury is the exception of course.
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http://www.igougo.com/journal-j39646-Palenque-Palenque_Incredible_Architecture.html
Great Rift:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Rift_(astronomy)
Galactic alignment:
http://alignment2012.com/whatisga.htm
http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-alignment

Jim
2010-Nov-30, 07:28 PM
DCAX1114, welcome to BAUT!

You posted this in the Conspiracy Theories forum. Are you proposing a conspiracy?

DCAX1114
2010-Dec-01, 02:46 AM
Thank you for the welcome. I found the Maya calendar under the conspiracy forum along with threads about galactic alignment, so I thought this would belong alongside it. This conspiracy is as much one as those I think.

What proof do I have that the Maya made a star map along with a mythological story board on the lid of the tomb of the king they revered as a sun-god. The central world tree has also been interpreted as a representation of the band of the Milky Way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life#Mesoamerica. Seven Feather Macaw and and the Tree of Life, including the Great rift are clearly evident on the lid. The lid of Palenque is an such important artifact I think it speaks for itself because Lord Pacal was so central to their mythology.

The suggestion is that perhaps the Maya were intelligent stargazers and framed the heavens properly such that by observation they were able to discern where and when the next great meteor would strike and end an age on this Earth. It is hard to imagine humans ruling for millions of years like the dinosaurs did. Remembering the precise timing was not nearly as important to them as preserving the location of the threat. That is why they made that exact point on the lid the one point that has no other counterpart, the moment of incarnation. If you look closely, the point is actually quite precise. The green boxes I drew on the lid were the best way I knew to point it out. In order to really get a feel for it, you probably need to spend some time looking at the lid.

If I had time and knowledge about astronomy, I would look in space in that spot. Thank you again for having me on the forum.

eburacum45
2010-Dec-01, 07:05 PM
The suggestion is that perhaps the Maya were intelligent stargazers and framed the heavens properly such that by observation they were able to discern where and when the next great meteor would strike and end an age on this Earth.That would not have been possible for the Mayan astronomers, and it is not possible for modern astronomers.
I recommend you read these NASA pages about the risks from near-earth objects, if you have not already done so.
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/target.html
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/doc/sentry.html
Even with very accurate measurement of a near-earth-object's trajectory, it is not possible to predict its motion accurately for more than a few decades ahead. Certainly the Maya could not have predicted any impacts more than a few decades ahead themselves, even with astronomy equal to our own.

DCAX1114
2010-Dec-01, 09:17 PM
I read the sites and understand now the impossiblity of calculating any future impact. I also see that the probability of such an arrival is small. Perhaps it was a comet like object and that is how they knew it would return.

Also, aren't the stars fixed and we wobbling, so a symbolically connected star chart could track the fixed or slow movement of the space regardless of the precession of the Earth. I assume this is one of the major problems with predicting anything. But maybe the universe's expansion makes any other factor negligible and there is no real way to grasp the space as a solid.

Infinity Watcher
2010-Dec-02, 01:37 AM
I'm probably going to show my ignorance now, not being an astronomer and all.

I'd be very careful describing anything as "fixed", general relativity being what it is, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the space" in your last post so I may be stating what you already know.

The problem in predicting the movement of any celestial object is to the best of my understanding all down to chaos theory. If you've ever seen one of these magnetic pendulums (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_jgOb5gUsU&feature=related) in action you'll get a feel for how very very tiny changes in initial conditions eventually blow up to massive changes in the final state. The behaivour of a 2 body scenario is predictable anything beyond that (such as our solar system with it's many hundreds of objects) requires greater degrees of approximation which subsequently lead to errors building up in any prediction as time passes hence eburacaum's point that even with all our sophisticated equipment the errors in measuring the properties of an object rapidly render our predictions useless. The Mayans did not have the advantage of our technology and their measurements must perforce have been cruder. Knowing a comet comes round every N years is one thing, knowing it's going to be on an intercept course with the Earth requires a whole new level of accuracy since you have to know that two relatively small objects are going to occupy the same spatial coordinates at the same time, an error in any one of those 4 coordinates translates to a miss and the nature fo the universe is such that you will have errors in all 4, so you can only talk about a position of a body in so far as those errors don't have time to compound to beyond the required margins of error of your calculation.

kamaz
2010-Dec-02, 04:59 PM
The suggestion is that perhaps the Maya were intelligent stargazers and framed the heavens properly such that by observation they were able to discern where and when the next great meteor would strike and end an age on this Earth.

What you are proposing is basically a rehash of an old theory which says that certain old structures (Egyptian pyramids etc.) are aligned with celestial objects, as seen ca. 10500 BC. The theory says that this was when a major catastrophe (end of Atlantis) occurred. If we are willing to overlook the fact that we have no archaeological record of sufficiently advanced civilization around 10500 BC, this theory makes sense. The builders of the pyramids, or the makers of your stone, or the creators of whatever-is-claimed-this-time wanted to warn their descendants about when the next catastrophe would occur, by recording the associated celestial alignment.

So far, so good. The problem is that the theory assumes that the catastrophic event (asteroid impact) was periodic in nature. But, how could the hypothetical ancients know that? The answer is that they couldn't, because they didn't have the access to Earth's geological record (i.e. they didn't invent geology). A much more likely outcome would be that they have witnessed a single catastrophic cosmic event, and incorrectly assumed that it is periodic -- because in their understanding, all the cosmic events were periodic.

So, it's entirely thinkable that there was an asteroid impact (i.e. a Tunguska-type event) in South America at the time of Maya civilization and the makers of your stone have recorded its date.

Jim
2010-Dec-02, 05:52 PM
... Also, aren't the stars fixed ...

Uh, no, they're not. All stars exhibit proper motion.

DCAX1114
2010-Dec-10, 06:26 AM
So I have read about magnetic pendulums and have refreshed myself on proper motion. I also spent some time on the Near Earth Object site

The only way for the ancients to be of any use then as far as the lid goes would be to think about what their mistakes were and correct for them. They would have thought the source to be where the stars were in 683 when it was made and then extrapolate that into present day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'inich_Janaab'_Pakal

Another way of thinking about the issue might be this. The stars exhibit proper motion and are distant. We envision an impact coming from some yet distant source because we assume we would see the near ones. What if the whole thing was a draped curtain though, like Einstein suggests. If this is the case, knowing where the folds are may be just important as scanning the sheet. In other words, the actual nearest things to the Earth might not be coming in the dimension we are looking. This theory is consistent with many of the possibilities that relativity suggests.

Finally, another perhaps more sensible reason they would know the direction is because they have tracked an object since it left. Proper motion surely prevents us from looking in the same spot but it does not prevent us from tracking the change. Does that prevent the ancients from having tracked the object as well if they watch it leave? Could ancients have tracked an object for millenia? Also, as far as civilizations going back to 10,000 bc. Gobekli Tepe is that old and we are just starting to scratch the surface. That site is a temple made by a people that left no human remains and depicted vulture excarnated sky burials.

Extracelestial
2010-Dec-12, 06:23 PM
...The lid of Palenque is an such important artifact I think it speaks for itself because Lord Pacal was so central to their mythology....

The suggestion is that perhaps the Maya were intelligent stargazers and framed the heavens properly such that by observation they were able to discern where and when the next great meteor would strike and end an age on this Earth.....

Hi DCAX,

the lid of Pacal seems to attract much speculation. In my days, the notorious Erich von Daniken, claimed that it is the depiction of an "ancient astronaut". For my unexperienced eyes he seemed to be right - Lord Pacal appeared to grab for the controls of some craft. His braids were oxygen supply lines and he was resting on an acceleration seat. Neat, intuitive and wrong.
Nowadays, a little less ignorant, I subscribe to the assumption that this is but an artistic expression as the Mayans loved to display elegant gestures. If you check his right hand you'll notice that there is nothing in it, the braids are but braids and the seat is probably weird due to artistic license. It seems that our intuitive interpretation fell prey to a modern bias since we wished to see astronauts.

Hence, if this "intuitive assumption" is wrong since biased, then your assumption that some evil is coming this way and the Mayans made the lid to warn future generations might be biased as well.
However, even if the Mayans made this lid to warn us what makes you so sure that they weren't wrong? After all we're still here and our technology is much more advanced.

Ex

DCAX1114
2011-Jan-26, 02:54 AM
Many people have commented on this thread about the speculation of the past or a depiction of a futuristic object. Some of you may have taken the time to recoginize the movement of the figures through the stages of life across the lid. It is a powerful expression of the ancient's connection with the universe, the fact they overlaid their own life pathways onto the sky. Lord Pacal is simply in the foreground. There is no need to read anything into the image, but as an observer, it is interesting that they planted birth somewhere.