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View Full Version : Who really deserves respect?



HenrikOlsen
2010-Dec-09, 01:24 AM
Someone who has been dead for the last 30 years, or someone who has been delivering his product every single day for the last 40 years?

Swift
2010-Dec-09, 02:29 AM
???

I guess it depends on the particulars, such as what the product is and what the dead person did. But I generally think everyone deserves respect, unless they have done something to lose the respect of others.

Ronald Brak
2010-Dec-09, 02:43 AM
Humans should should give respect where it benefits them, keeping in mind that acting in their long term benefit often results in their greatest overall utility and that very few humans view themselves as simply a single individual and isolated bag of meat.

Kadava
2010-Dec-09, 02:57 AM
Would I be right in guessing the dead person is John Lennon?

LaurelHS
2010-Dec-09, 03:02 AM
I imagined it might be a reference to him...

Solfe
2010-Dec-09, 03:45 AM
If its the guy who's been delivering spam for years, then I pick the dead guy. On the other hand should the product be pizza, I'll worship the pizza guy. :)

Gillianren
2010-Dec-09, 03:51 AM
I imagined it might be a reference to him...

Versus Sir Paul, one assumes.

danscope
2010-Dec-09, 05:34 AM
" I don't even get respect from my dog. He braks at the front door. He doesn't want to go out. He wants ME to leave ! " ---- Rodney Dangerfield

Ronald Brak
2010-Dec-09, 05:41 AM
" I don't even get respect from my dog. He braks at the front door. He doesn't want to go out. He wants ME to leave ! " ---- Rodney Dangerfield

Great, now even dogs are doing my job.

Jens
2010-Dec-09, 06:27 AM
If it is indeed John vs. Paul, I wonder why it's even necessary to make a choice. I would guess most of us have a lot of respect and admiration for both of them.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-09, 07:05 AM
Yeah, I don't think we should have to make a choice just based on whether someone's alive or dead or how long they did whatever-it-was.

Jens
2010-Dec-09, 10:30 AM
Great, now even dogs are doing my job.

I thought that was funny too. But I didn't really think that you needed to write brak about it.

Swift
2010-Dec-09, 02:04 PM
If it is indeed John vs. Paul, I wonder why it's even necessary to make a choice. I would guess most of us have a lot of respect and admiration for both of them.
My thoughts exactly. Respect, like love, isn't a finite quantity that one needs to ration out to the "deserving people". And all we need is love.

It would be nice if Henrik gave us a clue as to what this was all about....

Buttercup
2010-Dec-09, 02:42 PM
As we all know, John was murdered in his prime. He left behind a teenaged son and a 5 year old.

Fortunately Paul has been spared that fate. He will continue growing old and likely die peacefully, surrounded by loved ones and friends. He's seen his children grow up, has bounced grandbabies on his knee.

This is like comparing apples and oranges, imo.

John deserves to be remembered due to his tragic and senseless end.

Ronald Brak
2010-Dec-09, 03:34 PM
I thought that was funny too. But I didn't really think that you needed to write brak about it.

Well, I'm giving Rodney Dangerfield's dog one week to explain why he's trying to take my job away from me. I'm going to use a time machine to travel one week forward so I can get his reply straight away. It's a case of Brak to the future.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Dec-09, 04:00 PM
Versus Sir Paul, one assumes.
G.B. Trudeau actually.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-09, 07:10 PM
G.B. Trudeau actually.

Ah, yes. Saw him on The Colbert Report the other day. He was one of the few guests willing to take Colbert as the character is, following him on his own level. Then Steve Martin turned around and did the exact same thing.

But I also think we're talking apples and oranges artistically. I don't think you can really compare them--compare any of the three. Steve Martin has been performing for decades; in the last few years, a lot of his performing has been slipping. (Though I still regret that I wasn't able to get to the show his bluegrass band did at one of the casinos in the area.) However, he has been doing it, and he's been doing something new all the time. Gary Trudeau has shaped an entire world, so deeply interconnected that a character who had showed up for a few months when she was a baby is now the eponymous character's wife. I always find that fascinating.

And John Lennon wrote, co-wrote, or had his name on songs that helped shape an entire generation and was murdered by a madman. I agree that we can't ever know what he would have done had he lived. Maybe the album he was recording would have been one last gasp before slipping into as much obscurity as a former Beatle could manage. That doesn't mean we shouldn't mourn him or speculate on other prospects.

ETA--Also, I'm pretty sure Trudeau took a few years off back in the '80s, though I could be wrong.

Swift
2010-Dec-09, 08:56 PM
I think Aretha Franklin deserves respect. ;)

danscope
2010-Dec-09, 09:10 PM
A work of art is a joy forever. The works of the Beatles, collectively and individually will stand and be respected , now and always .

Gillianren
2010-Dec-09, 10:38 PM
I don't respect Ringo . . . .

Solfe
2010-Dec-10, 02:01 AM
Jillian Lennon vs. Sean Lennon. Go!

Jens
2010-Dec-10, 02:23 AM
G.B. Trudeau actually.

So you meant to compare John Lennon and GB Trudeau? I don't really see much of a relation. Or were you also thinking of somebody other than Lennon?

WaxRubiks
2010-Dec-10, 03:04 AM
I don't respect Ringo . . . .

you've obviously never seen his Thomas the Tank Engine programs.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-10, 04:22 AM
"Being vaguely amused by" is not the same as respecting. George Carlin was better at it anyway.

Solfe
2010-Dec-10, 11:11 PM
I was always horrified that George Carlin was doing the narration of Thomas. I always fear there would be a show were he would just loose it for the kiddies. :)

Didn't Alec Baldwin at a turn at that?

CJSF
2010-Dec-12, 07:37 AM
Loose what? A knot? A string of obscenities? OK, I'll stop playing grammar police, but the word is LOSE. And I don't see how; the show is pre-taped and edited. (Well, I see your smiley, but still...)

CJSF

danscope
2010-Dec-12, 11:01 PM
" Torpedos .... LOOSE ! "

baric
2010-Dec-13, 04:29 PM
Is this really a Lennon vs. Trudeau thread?

Really?

The mediums they work in are totally different, and Lennon's is far more enduring. Fifty years from now, people will still be singing "Give Peace a Chance" to protest unjust wars while newspapers (and Doonesbury) will be forgotten footnotes in history.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-13, 06:48 PM
Oh, I don't think so. After all, the newspaper holds an enormous place in the history of several countries, whereas "Give Peace a Chance" isn't actually a very good song.

baric
2010-Dec-13, 08:50 PM
Oh, I don't think so. After all, the newspaper holds an enormous place in the history of several countries, whereas "Give Peace a Chance" isn't actually a very good song.

Ya, it's not a good song at all. But it is a great rallying cry, which is its intent. It's also a lot more timeless than Doonesbury.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-13, 09:31 PM
Ah, but Doonesbury is an excellent teaching tool. Were I to teach US history of the period it covers, I would probably use more than a few Doonesbury strips. (Also probably the best-known cartoon by the late, great Paul Conrad.) No, the strips don't necessarily speak to a modern perspective--though you'd probably be surprised to find out how many do--but they teach a lot about the time they're from. Most of what I knew about Watergate until very recently came from old Doonesbury strips. There's a lot of good stuff about the Reagan years, and of course BD served in three wars. (He joined the army to get out of writing a term paper.) I don't doubt that any number of John Lennon's good songs will last the test of time, but "Give Peace a Chance" isn't even a compelling example of its point. It's repeating the same line over and over again, and there are better ways to petition for peace.

baric
2010-Dec-14, 12:12 AM
My point wasn't to denigrate Trudeau's work or to propose "Give Peace a Chance" as a musical masterpiece. My point is the medium. A mediocre but catchy song like "Give Peace a Chance" is known by (and therefore affects) far more people than Doonesbury.

Very few people in the current generation read Doonesbury anymore. John Lennon is iconic (dying in your prime has that effect).

edit: to perhaps reflect on this more fully:

John Lennon's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/johnlennon
"1,342,460 people like this"

G.B. Trudeau's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/G-B-Trudeau/140826519276953
"1 person likes this"

Jens
2010-Dec-14, 01:47 AM
Oh, I don't think so. After all, the newspaper holds an enormous place in the history of several countries, whereas "Give Peace a Chance" isn't actually a very good song.

Accuse me of having no musical taste if you want, but I actually like the song.

Plus, I really don't understand why we're having a conversation about whether Trudeau or Lennon deserves more respect.

Middenrat
2010-Dec-14, 03:00 AM
I've got to point out that the Doonesbury comic has no penetration in the UK beyond the cartoon-reading segment of the readership of its only syndication here, in a small-circulation highbrow daily newspaper. Any comparison of Lennon v Trudeau on a cultural impact level is just daft, even if the two fall into the same political camp, broadly speaking.
I wish to single out Ringo also - as the finest backing musician of his generation.

CJSF
2010-Dec-14, 03:37 AM
I have to say I'm a bit surprised at how small a following Doonesbury seems to have (keeping in mind the possiblilty of a skewed demographic via Facebook). It was always prominent in the local papers growing up, and although for the bulk of my life, I didn't "get" it, I always had the feeling it was popular.

CJSF

baric
2010-Dec-14, 04:55 AM
Lest anyone think that I am unfairly biased in this discussion, here's a picture of me at this year's TAM 8 conference (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs597.ash2/154942_1481124987683_1220577279_31106504_6356166_n .jpg)

Gillianren
2010-Dec-14, 05:10 AM
I have to say I'm a bit surprised at how small a following Doonesbury seems to have (keeping in mind the possiblilty of a skewed demographic via Facebook). It was always prominent in the local papers growing up, and although for the bulk of my life, I didn't "get" it, I always had the feeling it was popular.

The story goes that Trudeau was the first cartoonist to win a Pulitzer for editorializing. Huge numbers of columnists and so forth wrote to the Pulitzer committee insisting that cartoonists should not be eligible for the prize. Once he found out that it couldn't be rescinded, he joined the protest. Whether this is funny or him being a jerk ("No one else can do what I did!"), I cannot say. I like to see it as funny, though.

baric
2010-Dec-14, 05:22 AM
I like to see it as funny, though.

That's hilarious! :P

Gillianren
2010-Dec-14, 06:33 AM
That's hilarious! :P

Trudeau's a funny guy. It's why the strip is such a valuable teaching tool for history. And then there's this one, http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1971/01/07/, my favourite non-political strip.

jokergirl
2010-Dec-15, 10:32 AM
Someone who has been dead for the last 30 years, or someone who has been delivering his product every single day for the last 40 years?

Yes.

Swift
2010-Dec-15, 03:42 PM
Trudeau's a funny guy. It's why the strip is such a valuable teaching tool for history. And then there's this one, http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1971/01/07/, my favourite non-political strip.
I've always liked Doonesbury and a lot of it, both political and not, is funny. Some of the early ones are still my favorites, including Zonker making "wheatloaf" and the ones with Bernie as Mike's lab partner ("The fourth dimension is a mess"). I won't comment on political ones I thought funny (might have to suspend myself).

But frankly, the premise in the OP is silly, comparing Lennon and Trudeau, who are very different artists, and both of whom deserve respect, but for different reasons. It is like saying we have to choose between respecting Bach or Monet.

BigDon
2010-Dec-15, 04:32 PM
I don't respect Ringo . . . .

But I did like his Merlin. I just can't remember the movie...

PetersCreek
2010-Dec-15, 06:28 PM
Oh, I don't think so. After all, the newspaper holds an enormous place in the history of several countries, whereas "Give Peace a Chance" isn't actually a very good song.

"Happy Birthday to You" (1935) isn't a very good song either but as hokey as it is, it's also easy to remember, it's easy to sing, and I think nearly everyone in the English speaking world (and many others) can relate to it. I think technical excellence is very poor indicator of what music will or will not be entrained in society.

As for cartoons, the 1930s gave us the likes of Popeye, Little Orphan Annie, and Dick Tracy. They were often mirrors of their times but other than that, I can't think of anything that was really known for it's social commentary that's still widely known today. Perhaps The New Yorker magazine is close?

PetersCreek
2010-Dec-15, 06:31 PM
But I did like [Ringo's] Merlin. I just can't remember the movie...

If it went anything like Cave Man, Ringo likely can't remember it, either.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-15, 07:07 PM
I've always liked Doonesbury and a lot of it, both political and not, is funny. Some of the early ones are still my favorites, including Zonker making "wheatloaf" and the ones with Bernie as Mike's lab partner ("The fourth dimension is a mess"). I won't comment on political ones I thought funny (might have to suspend myself).

I've actually lost touch with the strip entirely due to having spent so little time with regular newspaper access in the late '90s and early '00s, and I've never quite picked up the habit of reading it online. I know about BD, of course, but it was only by reading a book of back strips that I found out both that Mike had married Kim and that she was the Kim who used to sing advertising jingles as a baby.


But frankly, the premise in the OP is silly, comparing Lennon and Trudeau, who are very different artists, and both of whom deserve respect, but for different reasons. It is like saying we have to choose between respecting Bach or Monet.

Worse, to me. It's like deciding we can only respect Keats or Bach.


"Happy Birthday to You" (1935) isn't a very good song either but as hokey as it is, it's also easy to remember, it's easy to sing, and I think nearly everyone in the English speaking world (and many others) can relate to it. I think technical excellence is very poor indicator of what music will or will not be entrained in society.

Yes, but there's a cultural slot in which to insert "Happy Birthday," to the extent that it always feels awkward in movies and TV shows where they sing something else to save the royalties. It's also a slot unlikely to ever be filled by anything else, because no one else bothers. There's always room for new songs about peace.


As for cartoons, the 1930s gave us the likes of Popeye, Little Orphan Annie, and Dick Tracy. They were often mirrors of their times but other than that, I can't think of anything that was really known for it's social commentary that's still widely known today. Perhaps The New Yorker magazine is close?

An interesting question. We do have several cultural images left to us by Thomas Nast, who was even further back than the '30s. I would say there are a few which we don't realize ever had social commentary but did. There was Pogo, after all, though not that far back. We now think of Pogo as lighthearted, but there's some pretty pointed satire there. It's just that it gets all hidden among the funny animals.

baric
2010-Dec-15, 07:48 PM
There's always room for new songs about peace.

Well sure, but where are they? Thirty-plus years after "Give Peace a Chance" was recorded, it was still being chanted in the 2003 demonstrations against the Iraq War.

GPaC was written as an anti-war slogan by the most iconic member of possibly the most influential music group since the advent of recorded music. It is indelibly linked with the peace movement just as "Happy Birthday" is linked with birthdays, so I'd suggest there really isn't a lot of room for other peace songs to gain traction. This kid (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/hissyspit/World%20Protest%20-%2015%20FEB%202003/Feb154.jpg) was likely born several years AFTER Lennon was dead and buried.

GPaC is not anywhere near my list of top Beatles songs musically; we probably agree on its relative lack of artistic merit. But paradoxically, it is probably the most influential song they wrote. History is fickle in that way. And, back to the original comparison, I personally don't think Doonesbury will be considered relevant even one year after Trudeau puts down the pen.

I'd wager that almost no one younger than the baby boom generation even knows who he is. I admit that I asked around yesterday. 5/5 under-25s never heard of Trudeau, and only one (a JHU grad student) had vaguely heard of "Doonesbury", but never read it.

Swift
2010-Dec-15, 07:58 PM
There was Pogo, after all, though not that far back. We now think of Pogo as lighthearted, but there's some pretty pointed satire there. It's just that it gets all hidden among the funny animals.
I loved Pogo. And it was very satirical (I don't know how to rank it versus Doonesbury). But I suspect Pogo is less well know today than Doonesbury, Popeye, Little Orphan Annie, or Dick Tracy.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-15, 08:09 PM
This, I grant you. But who would have heard of Little Orphan Annie were it not for the musical?

PetersCreek
2010-Dec-15, 08:15 PM
This, I grant you. But who would have heard of Little Orphan Annie were it not for the musical?

Quite a few, I would think. Annie was a staple in Sunday comics right up to it's Broadway debut and was only discontinued this year. When I heard that Annie was to be a musical, I remember thinking something like, "Annie? Are you serious?"

Gillianren
2010-Dec-15, 09:30 PM
How many people know that there's still a Dick Tracy strip? I didn't until I started reading Comics Curmudgeon, which regularly discusses the strip. (It's also how I found out that there's a Spider-Man newspaper strip and that it's terrible.) Honestly, I don't think we can be sure what cultural impact anyone or anything will have on future generations while there are still people who hold it in living memory. We can be certain about some ongoing things; I think we can all agree that television changed culture. But an individual artist? That's dicier.

Swift
2010-Dec-15, 10:12 PM
Our local paper, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, carries Spider-Man (I don't like it), but I hadn't seen Dick Tracy in years.

Gillianren
2010-Dec-15, 10:31 PM
It's on the list of strips I would never even have thought about were it not for that blog, which is the only one I follow. It turns out there is a soap opera strip about sports. It is also very bad.

Jim
2010-Dec-16, 06:06 PM
... We do have several cultural images left to us by Thomas Nast, who was even further back than the '30s. ...

A few... like the elephant and the donkey, now accepted without a second thought by the parties Nast used them to symbolize... satirically.


... There was Pogo, after all, though not that far back. We now think of Pogo as lighthearted, but there's some pretty pointed satire there. It's just that it gets all hidden among the funny animals.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_%28comic_strip%29#Satire_and_politics

Of course, in the spirit of the season...

Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla Walla, Wash., an' Kalamazoo!
Nora's freezin' on the trolley,
Swaller dollar cauliflower alley-garoo!

Bark us all bow-wows of folly,
Double-bubble, toyland trouble! Woof, woof, woof!
Tizzy seas on melon collie!
Dibble-dabble, scribble-scrabble! Goof, goof, goof!