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View Full Version : Milk and dairy=the most harmful materials?



Inclusa
2011-Jan-13, 06:53 AM
People are starting to expose the harms of milk and dairy; however, due to HUGE interests behind the dairy industry, most media will not expose them.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, media stories occasionally become semi-reliable due to
commercial interests and biases.

WaxRubiks
2011-Jan-13, 07:07 AM
one thing I have read is that far from being a good source of calcium, consuming dairy leaches calcium from the bones.
I read this in Bad Medicine.
It isn't really surprising. What how many animals consumes dairy into their adulthood?

There may, or maynot, be anying wrong with it, health wise, but I have given up dairy, as I believe that the process of obtaining milk inherently involves a mistreatment of cows and calves, at least at commercial levels.

And yes, the dairy industry is powerful, and will try to spread misinformation, with eg the calcium myth....Do cows themselves consume dairy? No, yet they somehow get their calcium from somewhere.

Van Rijn
2011-Jan-13, 08:21 AM
People are starting to expose the harms of milk and dairy


References please. It sounds like you're claiming some kind of extraordinary danger, rather than the obvious issues of eating too much.


however, due to HUGE interests behind the dairy industry, most media will not expose them.


Is this some kind of conspiracy theory?

Ronald Brak
2011-Jan-13, 08:58 AM
Milk is the best possible food for developing infants. Just be sure it comes from a human, or in a pinch a monkey.

Jens
2011-Jan-13, 09:19 AM
one thing I have read is that far from being a good source of calcium, consuming dairy leaches calcium from the bones.
I read this in Bad Medicine.
It isn't really surprising. What how many animals consumes dairy into their adulthood?


Honestly, the idea that calcium leaches calcium from the bones because animals don't consume it into adulthood doesn't make sense. What's the connect? Isn't it rather that milk is specially prepared nutrition for infants, but becomes unnecessary by adult animals that learn how to get food themselves? I don't think there's any reason why it would be bad to consume milk in adulthood. Or even why there is anything inherently bad about consuming food that's for cows. Grass may be cow food as well, but I don't think there is anything particularly harmful about consuming it as a human. It's pretty indigestible, OK, but that doesn't necessarily make it harmful.

I think you should try to show what exactly is bad about dairy products. For example, there is the problem of lactose intolerance, which may be an actual problem. But that should be the issue, not whether it's natural for us to consume it.

WaxRubiks
2011-Jan-13, 10:15 AM
Honestly, the idea that calcium leaches calcium from the bones because animals don't consume it into adulthood doesn't make sense.

I didn't say that, I just said it wasn't a surprise, we being closely related to all the other species, that it wasn't healthy for us to consume in adult hood.


The common approach to preventing Osteoporosis has been prescribing large doses of calcium.

For years, doctors have been telling people, mostly women, that to prevent bone loss, to increase the amount of calcium in their diet. They suggest dairy as the perfect source of the dairy. However, dairy calcium has two major flaws that actually increases and worsens Osteoporosis!

First, dairy calcium contains little or no magnesium.

In order to absorb calcium into the bones, the human body needs an equal amount of magnesium. Dairy products do not have enough magnesium to accomplish this task. However, magnesium is found in abundance is green vegetables (more on this later).

Second, dairy contains too much protein.

Dietary protein causes the blood to become acidic. To neutralize this acid, the body uses its largest source of calcium it can find: the skeletal system. The calcium in bones is the perfect neutralizer to the acids in protein. For example, if you take in 1000-1500 mg of high-protein calcium daily, the average person will still lose 4% bone mass each year! The body actually consumes its own skeleton to neutralize the acid found in protein.


So where do we find calcium that is balanced with magnesium and is also low in protein?

In green vegetables! Vegetables such as spinach, kale, and broccoli contain large amount of calcium, a good balance of magnesium, and low levels of acidic protein. The molecular structure of chlorophyll, the green blood of plant life, contains the magnesium molecule. And we find that in countries where dairy consumption is low and green vegetable consumption is high, the incidence of Osteoporosis is low. China and Japan for example, have very low rates of Osteoporosis and they consume very little dairy.




http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/osteoporosis_dairy.shtml

Jens
2011-Jan-13, 10:30 AM
I'm just quoting here from a paper I found at the NIH website:


Normal values for plasma calcium and magnesium levels during the first week of life, in breast- and bottle-fed babies, have been determined. It has been shown on the sixth day that plasma levels of calcium, magnesium, and protein are all significantly lower in bottle-fed babies than in breast-fed babies, while the reverse is true of the plasma inorganic phosphorus.

And according to this paper (http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/3/392.full.pdf), cow milk actually has more magnesium (and calcium) than human milk. It seems odd to me, but I don't really know where the person you quoted is getting the data from.

WaxRubiks
2011-Jan-13, 10:34 AM
And according to this paper (http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/3/392.full.pdf), cow milk actually has more magnesium (and calcium) than human milk. It seems odd to me, but I don't really know where the person you quoted is getting the data from.

yeah, but maybe it doesn't matter for babies.
My guess is that it perhaps wouldn't be good for adults to consume human milk either.

Joseph1
2011-Jan-13, 02:44 PM
That is amazing that milk and dairy is bad for you, in the 1970s The News Of The World had a Doctor Coleman who had a problem page and he constantly went on about dairy products been worse than anything you can put in your body' he said the damage it done was so bad it should be avoided at all costs.
he used to have a website but I think he is dead now, i will do a search for a link before I post this.
Seems he is still alive, http://www.vernoncoleman.com/

Ronald Brak
2011-Jan-13, 03:05 PM
There are two ways to digest milk that are complementary. The first is to drink milk throughout childhood so the body doesn't lose the ability to digest the stuff. The second is to be a mutant freak. Mutant freaks are usually of Indo-European decent. Is milk good for you? That depends on if you would currently benefit from from a liquid dose of protein, fat and carbohydrate. There are many people in the world who could well do with more of all of those three things and many who could definitely do with a bit less. And in one of those amusing and tragic twists of fate, the people who need it most are generally the ones who can't digest it. In the past milk powder has been sent as food aid to regions where people had no ability to digest it. As the locals soon realized it obviously wasn't food, some used it as a laxative and other as whitewash.

Whether or not milk is good for you personally, first establish whether or not you are a mutant freak or otherwise have an exceptional digestive system. This is done by drinking a pint of milk and keeping it inside your body for at least 24 hours without expending any effort in order to do so. If you pass this test, congradulations, you are one of the minority that can digest unprocessed milk. The next step is to take your clothes off and look in the mirror. (It's probably best to do this in private.) The more you look like Leia and the less you look like Jabba the more you can get away with drinking milk. But even if you look like Jabba you can still drink milk if you use it to replace things that are worse for you, which can include things such as McDonalds, biscuits, potato chips, potatoes, white bread, soft drink, alchohol, broken glass and so on. Strangely enough, people seem well aware that these things aren't good for them but eat them anyway, with the general exception of broken glass.

korjik
2011-Jan-13, 03:23 PM
Freak?

Swift
2011-Jan-13, 03:25 PM
People are starting to expose the harms of milk and dairy; however, due to HUGE interests behind the dairy industry, most media will not expose them.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, media stories occasionally become semi-reliable due to
commercial interests and biases.
This sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy theory. Am I correct about that? If so, there are specific rules on BAUT about such things that will come in force.

Swift
2011-Jan-13, 03:29 PM
The second is to be a mutant freak.
Maybe "freak" wasn't the best choice of words. Or you forgot one of these: :)

Buttercup
2011-Jan-13, 03:48 PM
Doesn't *everything* have some harm or risk attached to it nowadays? (It's hard to believe there's a fate worse than being alive.)

Could be hype. Probably is.

I drink milk and consume dairy on a nearly daily basis.

Strange
2011-Jan-13, 04:08 PM
That is amazing that milk and dairy is bad for you, in the 1970s The News Of The World had a Doctor Coleman who had a problem page and he constantly went on about dairy products been worse than anything you can put in your body' he said the damage it done was so bad it should be avoided at all costs.
he used to have a website but I think he is dead now, i will do a search for a link before I post this.
Seems he is still alive, http://www.vernoncoleman.com/

Er, News of the World? Really? I think we can safely ignore that then.

Strange
2011-Jan-13, 04:10 PM
The second is to be a mutant freak.

Round here the vast majority of the population are these mutants and so there is no harm for most people in drinking milk (in moderation, as with all things).

We have been adapted to it for something like 20,000 years so it is probably OK by now.

Swift
2011-Jan-13, 04:15 PM
Doesn't *everything* have some harm or risk attached to it nowadays?
Absolutely. For example, I have Scientific Evidence that 100% of the people who died as adults, had at some point during their earlier life, taken up the dangerous habit of breathing. I suggest that everyone stop breathing at once.

:D

WaxRubiks
2011-Jan-13, 04:31 PM
but if I stop breathing, how can I take up the bagpipes.

Extravoice
2011-Jan-13, 05:26 PM
This is done by drinking a pint of milk and keeping it inside your body for at least 24 hours without expending any effort in order to do so.

Why would this be a difficult?

NEOWatcher
2011-Jan-13, 05:36 PM
People are starting to expose the harms of milk and dairy...
What people, and what harms?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, media stories occasionally become semi-reliable due to commercial interests and biases.
I find that a general statement for any industry. It's a matter of what you consider "occasionally" and how it is done (in what context).
With the media jumping to "scoop" everyone else, and thier love of "warning" people, it's probably a sure bet that a report from the AMA, FDA, USDA, or just about any researcher would be published. I doubt that the reporter would have to contact thier superiors who would then have to contact each of thier commercial interests, have them review the article, and wait for a response before printing an article.

I do see certain industries put out incomplete statements, press releases, and studies that the media blindly prints.


one thing I have read is that far from being a good source of calcium, consuming dairy leaches calcium from the bones.
It all depends on the other minerals in the intake, how your body processes them, and how it gets rid of them.

I am very familiar with some of this. For over 6 years I had to limit my dairy because of this issue. But it was because I was in a situation where my body wasn't ridding itself of phosphor. Dairy carries a lot of phosphor along with that calcium. Phosphor is a carrier of calcium in your body and your parathyroid tries to balance this.

Too much phosphor, and it will leach calcium from the bones. Too little and you will start to get calcium deposits, and other calcium related issues.

This is one reason why some soft drinks are bad for you... phosphoric acid.

Dairy will provide the calcium, but if you body isn't processing it, it's not going to matter.

And yes; dairy does have other non-calcium related issues to concern yourselves with. It's all about balancing and moderation.


I didn't say that, I just said it wasn't a surprise, we being closely related to all the other species, that it wasn't healthy for us to consume in adult hood.
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/osteoporosis_dairy.shtml
I don't know if your are relating your comment with that article.
Anyway, I'm not clear on the issues of osteoporosis and magnesium. If, indeeed, magnesium can carry calcium to your body in the same way phosphor can, then I can see that as being something to concern yourselves with. If dairy's calcium/phosphor balance is... well... balanced, then someone with osteoporosis will not be getting the calcium it's providing because they are not processing it normally.

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter
2011-Jan-13, 08:57 PM
There are two ways to digest milk that are complementary.

You neglected to mention a third option: allow bacteria or molds to digest the lactose first. Cultured milk products such as cheese and yogurt are eaten in many places where the lactase mutation is uncommon.


Why would this be a difficult?

Without the lactase enzyme, the lactose is passed unmodified to the bacteria of the large intestine. They can break it down, but the by-products are unpleasant in sufficiently large quantities.

Extravoice
2011-Jan-13, 09:04 PM
Without the lactase enzyme, the lactose is passed unmodified to the bacteria of the large intestine. They can break it down, but the by-products are unpleasant in sufficiently large quantities.

I guess I'm a "freak." Or as we mutants like to call ourselves, X-Men. :)

Did I ever tell you what happens when I eat asparagus? :eek:

Strange
2011-Jan-13, 09:43 PM
I guess I'm a "freak." Or as we mutants like to call ourselves, X-Men. :)

Did I ever tell you what happens when I eat asparagus? :eek:

actually, I think it happens to everyone but about 50% of the population are unaware of it ...

Van Rijn
2011-Jan-13, 09:55 PM
I guess I'm a "freak." Or as we mutants like to call ourselves, X-Men. :)

Did I ever tell you what happens when I eat asparagus? :eek:

Unless it involves the development of psychokinetic powers, please don't tell us.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jan-13, 10:10 PM
One more mutant freak here.
Moderation and variation counts more than religious avoidance of the latest quack fad avoid-at-all-cost thing or eating lots of the latest magic-cure-for-all-ills junk, during my lifetime everything remotely edible has already gone at least twice through both bad and absolutely required.

mfumbesi
2011-Jan-14, 05:50 AM
Round here the vast majority of the population are these mutants and so there is no harm for most people in drinking milk (in moderation, as with all things).

We have been adapted to it for something like 20,000 years so it is probably OK by now.

Here too. The Ngunis are particularly fond of their cows and the milk they produce.


....Moderation and variation counts more than religious avoidance of the latest quack fad avoid-at-all-cost thing or eating lots of the latest magic-cure-for-all-ills junk, during my lifetime everything remotely edible has already gone at least twice through both bad and absolutely required.
You can say that again, again, again.....

captain swoop
2011-Jan-14, 09:25 AM
I don't think I could live without my blue cheese!

mfumbesi
2011-Jan-14, 11:30 AM
I don't think I could live without my blue cheese!

You've obviously been brainwashed (if we follow the premise of the thread.....I'm also kidding by the way)

Swift
2011-Jan-14, 02:48 PM
The legally required link to the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch now that cheese needs have been mentioned in this thread (http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/cheese.htm)

The Backroad Astronomer
2011-Jan-14, 03:18 PM
I remeber about 10 or so years ago hearing Bill Maher spouting something how awful milk was, stating it was the source for most cancers and other stuff. But he also thinks vaccines are bad and smoking and drinking don't harm you. No wonder I don't follow him any longer.

Gillianren
2011-Jan-14, 10:40 PM
And he stopped being funny!

Van Rijn
2011-Jan-17, 04:44 AM
People are starting to expose the harms of milk and dairy
References please. It sounds like you're claiming some kind of extraordinary danger, rather than the obvious issues of eating too much.

It's been a few days since I asked this, so I suspect there won't be an answer, but I'm still curious what the OP is referring to here.

ineluki
2011-Jan-17, 02:36 PM
It isn't really surprising. What how many animals consumes dairy into their adulthood?


How many animals can drink milk into adulthood, how many peel their vegetables and fruits, how many cook their food?
Quite frankly this is one of the stupider arguments of the milk haters, usually enough for me not to bother with anyone who makes that claim.

And for the record, I would like to propose that those that can digest milk should be labeled as "Homo Superior", we are clearly the next step of the evolution :-)

WaxRubiks
2011-Jan-17, 03:46 PM
How many animals can drink milk into adulthood, how many peel their vegetables and fruits, how many cook their food?
Quite frankly this is one of the stupider arguments of the milk haters, usually enough for me not to bother with anyone who makes that claim.

And for the record, I would like to propose that those that can digest milk should be labeled as "Homo Superior", we are clearly the next step of the evolution :-)

yeah, in another 100,000 years, it might be healthy to consume dairy into adulthood. ;-)

Strange
2011-Jan-17, 04:57 PM
yeah, in another 100,000 years, it might be healthy to consume dairy into adulthood. ;-)

We (well, some of us) have been able to do it for about 8,000 years already. Why wait.

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter
2011-Jan-17, 10:09 PM
And for the record, I would like to propose that those that can digest milk should be labeled as "Homo Superior", we are clearly the next step of the evolution :-)

Sure, that idea isn't on the wrong side of history at all. Nope, no unfortunate implications, there. :rolleyes:

danscope
2011-Jan-18, 08:43 PM
Just for myself, I have enjoyed various dairy products , in moderation , for 62 years . About 9 years ago, I fell 12 feet and snapped my wrist.
I don't advise it. Anyway, my physician showed me my X-rays . He stated " You see here, which is where you would normally expect this bone to break ,.........BUT LOOK AT THE SIZE OF YOUR BONES !!!! " . And some people snap bones at the drop of a hat.
As I understand it, it is often a function of where your ancestors originate . Some people tolerate it. Some don't .
Common sense..... isn't all that common .
" Yes , I shall have the ' Tiramisu ' , thank you . Coffee , black . "

Jens
2011-Jan-20, 05:19 AM
How many animals can drink milk into adulthood, how many peel their vegetables and fruits, how many cook their food?


Yes, and in the context of this thread, how many raise cows? Because unless you have dairy farms, drinking milk into adulthood would mean that the females of the species would be constantly feeding their children throughout their lives, which would mean you'd have these mothers doing all the hunting or whatever, and feeding hundreds of children from various litters over the years. My impression is that most animals give us milk not because they lose the desire for it, but because the mother stops offering it to them.

Inclusa
2011-Jan-20, 08:22 AM
Just nothing excessive is the rule; than again, there are things that are absolutely harmful.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jan-20, 08:30 AM
; than again, there are things that are absolutely harmful.
Many of which have over the years been sold in dietary supplements.

rommel543
2011-Jan-21, 03:45 PM
We usually go through some where between 4-6 4 liter jugs of milk a week in our house. I can quite easily go through one on my own in two days and my sons are all the same way.