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Funkadelic
2011-Jan-18, 09:56 PM
Upon researching, I stumbled across this site and found myself perusing through the many arguments concerning ancient aliens, and I have yet to find a satisfying claim from either side. I was also surprised that there has been, from what I read, no mention of the Disclosure Project, which caused me to wonder how many participants in this forum have seen it. It is a press conference held about ten years ago in which many people formally come forward with extraordinary information they say the public deserves to know. They make some really far-fetched claims, but they also claim to have every bit of documentations and supporting evidence one could ask for to back them up. Not only that, but the testimonies (made mostly by ex-military and government officials, as well as a number of other highly credible and respected individuals) come complete with a promise to swear under oath and before congress that what they have said is nothing but the truth. In fact, these people are nearly begging to be held up in court to prove themselves. Has anyone veiwed this press conference in ts entirety? If so, what are your thoughts?

Also, though I know a great deal of ancient astronaut theorists are neither credible nor ethical, I am still troubled by the Dogon tribe. From what I understand, this tribe practices their ancient culture in which the star Sirius plays a crucial role. According to the beliefs of the Dogon people, there is a planet that orbits a dark companion of the star sirius from which "amphibious" visitors came in ancient times and brought forth knowledge and guidance. They do not make it sound like the visitors did anything that the people of the tribe were not capable of themselves, more like the visitors pushed them in the right direction. It was not until recently that scientists confirmed the existence of the star's companion, a white warf clevery named "Sirius B." This white dwarf isinvisible to the naked eye and can only be seen through the use of a powerul telescope. How could this seemingly primitive tribe have known about it? What's more is the Dogon people said, and science later confirmed, that Sirius B takes fifty years to make a comple orbit around Sirius. How is this possible? The Dogon people say the visitors told them. I find this case to be very strange.

Please correct me if any of that inormation is wrong. I am no expert; I'm merely lookingfor answers.

Garrison
2011-Jan-18, 11:01 PM
Upon researching, I stumbled across this site and found myself perusing through the many arguments concerning ancient aliens, and I have yet to find a satisfying claim from either side. I was also surprised that there has been, from what I read, no mention of the Disclosure Project, which caused me to wonder how many participants in this forum have seen it. It is a press conference held about ten years ago in which many people formally come forward with extraordinary information they say the public deserves to know. They make some really far-fetched claims, but they also claim to have every bit of documentations and supporting evidence one could ask for to back them up. Not only that, but the testimonies (made mostly by ex-military and government officials, as well as a number of other highly credible and respected individuals) come complete with a promise to swear under oath and before congress that what they have said is nothing but the truth. In fact, these people are nearly begging to be held up in court to prove themselves. Has anyone veiwed this press conference in ts entirety? If so, what are your thoughts?

The Disclosure Project has been discussed here on a number of occasions. They may claim to have supporting evidence but where is it? All they actually offer are anecdotal accounts and one of the things you are going to find is that unsupported eyewitness stories don't carry a lot of weight here. People can swear on a stack of bibles but even when they are being honest they can be mistaken or deceived.


Also, though I know a great deal of ancient astronaut theorists are neither credible nor ethical, I am still troubled by the Dogon tribe. From what I understand, this tribe practices their ancient culture in which the star Sirius plays a crucial role. According to the beliefs of the Dogon people, there is a planet that orbits a dark companion of the star sirius from which "amphibious" visitors came in ancient times and brought forth knowledge and guidance. They do not make it sound like the visitors did anything that the people of the tribe were not capable of themselves, more like the visitors pushed them in the right direction. It was not until recently that scientists confirmed the existence of the star's companion, a white warf clevery named "Sirius B." This white dwarf isinvisible to the naked eye and can only be seen through the use of a powerul telescope. How could this seemingly primitive tribe have known about it? What's more is the Dogon people said, and science later confirmed, that Sirius B takes fifty years to make a comple orbit around Sirius. How is this possible? The Dogon people say the visitors told them. I find this case to be very strange.

Please correct me if any of that inormation is wrong. I am no expert; I'm merely lookingfor answers.

The Dogon and Sirius B is a classic example of a story that seems baffling; so long as you only have the 'exotic' version of the story. Here's a excerpt from the Wiki page on the Dogon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people#Dogon_and_Sirius)that offers some more mundane alternatives:


More recently, doubts have been raised about the validity of Griaule and Dieterlein's work.[23][24] In a 1991 article in Current Anthropology anthropologist Walter van Beek concluded after his research among the Dogon that,

"Though they do speak about sigu tolo [which is what Griaule claimed the Dogon called Sirius] they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule"[25]

Griaule's daughter Genevieve Calame-Griaule responded in a later issue, suggesting that Van Beek may have been "sent by the political and administrative authorities to test the Dogon's Muslim orthodoxy," and argued that Van Beek did not go "through the appropriate steps for acquiring knowledge."[26] An independent assessment is given by Andrew Apter of the University of California.[27]

Robert Todd Carroll states that a more likely source of the knowledge of the Sirius star system is from contemporary, terrestrial sources who provided information to interested members of the tribes, or confabulation of new myths by credulous and biased Afrocentric scholars.[28] James Oberg also criticizes the idea that the Dogon tribes drew their knowledge from extraterrestrials, citing instead their extensive contacts with Western explorers, travelers and missionaries as well as members of the French Army, with whom some members of the Dogon served during World War I.[29] James Clifford however notes that Griaule sought informants best qualified to speak of traditional lore, and deeply mistrusted converts to Christianity, Islam, or people with too much contact with whites.[30] Oberg also points out the number of errors contained in the Dogon myths, including the number of moons possessed by Jupiter, that Saturn was the furthest planet from the sun, and the only planet with rings.

captain swoop
2011-Jan-18, 11:23 PM
Funkadelic Welcome to BAUT. Please take some time to read the RUles For Posting linked at the bottom of this post.

Thank You

slang
2011-Jan-18, 11:44 PM
P-funk!

I think each of the topics you mention has been discussed here before. Unfortunately, due to some database problems, the BAUT search function may not work perfectly right now... Fortunately, Google is pretty generous towards BAUT, updating quite often. You can use Google to search BAUT only with search terms like this: "dogon tribe" site:bautforum.com

As a general response to your message: be careful with people claiming to have the supportive evidence. It's often easy to pick and choose the evidence parts that by themselves, or in combination, may seem very ominous. But you'll find that when you find all the evidence, including reasons why some parts should not be considered as one single entity of evidence, that almost every case for ancient aliens falls apart. Especially claims like "humans could never have done X" may seem very persuasive at first glance, yet just a bit of searching will often show that people from a thousand or two thousand years ago were a lot more clever than some of the ancient astronaut proponents give them credit for. In short: be aware that in UFO stories, ancient or modern, there is quite often evidence that is not published by the proponents, and often there is knowledge that they lack.

eburacum45
2011-Jan-19, 04:17 AM
Some previous threads about, or which mention the Disclosure Project

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/32924-The-Disclosure-Project.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/105175-The-Disclosure-Project
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/17365-The-Disclosure-Project-The-Moon-Base-and-Soul-Scalping...
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/22926-Extra-Terrestrail-Life
http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-68538.html
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/71111-1944-The-World-turned-nut-(-)...the-UFO-era.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/83894-Hey-NASA-Thanks-for-the-smearing
http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-2284.html

My conclusions; a few interesting cases, lots of hearsay, several less impressive cases and a few fabrications.
None of which really prove very much. If there are specific cases you would like to discuss, pick them out; but just pointing at the Disclosure Project and saying 'what are your thoughts?' is not likely to spark much useful debate.

chrlzs
2011-Jan-19, 09:02 AM
Welcome, funk...

...I have yet to find a satisfying claim from either side.
So you are unsatisfied with the 'claims' made here by either side? I find that a little puzzling.. Could you be more specific? As a science forum, I would hope that the sciencey postings were all fairly useful, and in general I find them accurate and full of evidence...

The Dogon/Sirius thing has been covered by the links given - is there something that has been missed?

As for the Disclosure Project, what would you expect to happen at such an event? How reliable do you regard witness testimony? How much of the evidence was anecdotal, contradicted by others, or collected well after the events were publicised (I trust you know why that might be important..)?

What was the most compelling evidence presented, in your opinion?

The thing is, it is very easy to make broad claims based on multiple other claims, without actually looking at each one on its merits. Even the simple fact that all of these issues were deliberately collected introduces a strong bias. Good science removes as much bias as possible... And very rarely involves conferences of people telling stories ..

If you have a particular favorite (or if the Dogon thing is still inexplicable to you), please be specific.

And may I ask, have you done much homework on Steven Greer? May I suggest you Google "Steven Greer moth" as an example. That may sound odd, but trust me and go investigate... :D

kleindoofy
2011-Jan-20, 12:16 AM
... In fact, these people are nearly begging to be held up in court to prove themselves. ...
Loads of talentless people are more than begging to held up in front of the jury on American Idol to prove themselves.

That doesn't make them singers and proves nothing other than their warped self-recongnition.

Funkadelic
2011-Jan-25, 09:05 PM
I must say, I resent the "better-than-you" attitude I'm receiving in this thread. If it isn't in the right place, fine, but what do you gain from being condescending? If you feel you're more intelligent than I am then that's great for you, but no one likes an excessive ego. Humanity gets more dissappointing all of the time. I do not think much about the "what other explanation is there for X" claims, and I do not appreciate the inclination to assume I don't know much about what I am talking about.

I watched over four hours of video evidence from the Disclosure Project. I listened to tesimonies from Neil Armstrong himself saying that they encountered spacecraft on the trip to the moon that they were made to keep quiet about. I heard voice recordings where military personell were picking up UFOs on their radar traveling at speeds unheard of and making sudden right-hand turns. Of course the evidence backing this is shaky if it is being attempted to be covered up. They ARE releasing more evidence than just testimonies, some of which shows that they are being severely threatened for doing what they are doing. Who would be so upset about a "made up" story, and why would people risk their lives for something they did not have every reason to believe in? I'm sure some of the people on here also really believe that what crashed at Roswell was just a weather balloon (like they wouldn't have realized that before they informed the press). I, for one, am not going to deny the possibilty that, in a universe that is bigger than our minds can comprehend, we are not the only planet in a unique situation that makes it able to support life. Why is that such a crazy idea? If there were a "space alliance,"so to speak, it would make sense that we wouldnt be granted knowledge of it since we can't even overcome cultural differences within our own species.

"People, we ask you to be skeptical, but not unreasonably so."

Even it only might be true, don't you think that should be enough to keep those weapons out of space JUST in case? These people are claiming to be able to unite humanity, solve our energy crisis, and open us up to a world only dreamed of. It just doesn't make sense to me to allow the mistakes of a few people involved write off everything else the organization has to offer.

Swift
2011-Jan-25, 09:43 PM
I must say, I resent the "better-than-you" attitude I'm receiving in this thread. If it isn't in the right place, fine, but what do you gain from being condescending? If you feel you're more intelligent than I am then that's great for you, but no one likes an excessive ego. Humanity gets more dissappointing all of the time. I do not think much about the "what other explanation is there for X" claims, and I do not appreciate the inclination to assume I don't know much about what I am talking about.

First, as was suggested earlier in the thread, if you have not read the rules for BAUT (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/32864-Rules-For-Posting-To-This-Board), and even more particularly, the Advice for Conspiracy Theory (CT) advocates (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/86593-Advice-for-Conspiracy-Theory-Supporters), I strongly urge you to do so.

Second, having reviewed this thread, I see no one with an attitude, except maybe you in your last post. People have given you information about The Disclosure Project and the Dogon tribe and past discussions of them. Maybe you want to review that information, and then respond.

Lastly, if you think that other members' posts are rude or inappropriate, you do not debate it in this thread or respond in-kind; you use the Report function - go to the offending post, and click on the black triange with the ! in it (lower left corner of the post), explain your concern, and let the moderators deal with it.

Gillianren
2011-Jan-25, 09:51 PM
I listened to tesimonies from Neil Armstrong himself saying that they encountered spacecraft on the trip to the moon that they were made to keep quiet about.

First I've ever heard about this. I've heard garbled accounts of what Buzz Aldrin said (which very adamantly denied alien spacecraft) about seeing something they couldn't 100% identify, but doubtless you have a source for this particular claim?

Garrison
2011-Jan-25, 09:55 PM
I must say, I resent the "better-than-you" attitude I'm receiving in this thread. If it isn't in the right place, fine, but what do you gain from being condescending? If you feel you're more intelligent than I am then that's great for you, but no one likes an excessive ego. Humanity gets more dissappointing all of the time. I do not think much about the "what other explanation is there for X" claims, and I do not appreciate the inclination to assume I don't know much about what I am talking about.

Except that as was demonstrated the Disclosure project has been discussed here frequently, that you failed to discover this before posting reflects a failure in your research.


I watched over four hours of video evidence from the Disclosure Project. I listened to tesimonies from Neil Armstrong himself saying that they encountered spacecraft on the trip to the moon that they were made to keep quiet about.

Are you claiming that Neil Armstrong gave such a testimony to the Disclosure Project, if so I suggest you provide some evidence to support such a claim. Or was some third party claiming that Apollo 11 saw UFO's? A claim you can find comprehensively debunked here, including an alleged transcript of Armstrong sighting a UFO:

Debunker.com Apollo 11 (http://www.debunker.com/texts/apollo11.html)


I heard voice recordings where military personell were picking up UFOs on their radar traveling at speeds unheard of and making sudden right-hand turns. Of course the evidence backing this is shaky if it is being attempted to be covered up. They ARE releasing more evidence than just testimonies, some of which shows that they are being severely threatened for doing what they are doing.

Again please provide some evidence for these claims, this is your thread and your have the responsibility to support such statements.


Who would be so upset about a "made up" story, and why would people risk their lives for something they did not have every reason to believe in?

And this only applies if you take the proponents word for it that they have been threatened.


I, for one, am not going to deny the possibilty that, in a universe that is bigger than our minds can comprehend, we are not the only planet in a unique situation that makes it able to support life. Why is that such a crazy idea?

Strawman argument because no one here is denying the possibility of intelligence on other planets. I for one look forward to a day when evidence of such intelligence is discovered but the UFO movement has to date failed to provide it.


If there were a "space alliance,"so to speak, it would make sense that we wouldnt be granted knowledge of it since we can't even overcome cultural differences within our own species.

And now you are simply guessing about the psychology and social structure of beings we have exactly zero knowledge of.


Even it only might be true, don't you think that should be enough to keep those weapons out of space JUST in case? These people are claiming to be able to unite humanity, solve our energy crisis, and open us up to a world only dreamed of. It just doesn't make sense to me to allow the mistakes of a few people involved write off everything else the organization has to offer.

People make a lot of claims, a guy passed through the ATM forums a few months ago claiming to have built a warp drive in his basement, the question is can they demonstrate any physical reality behind their claims?

Strange
2011-Jan-25, 10:04 PM
I listened to tesimonies from Neil Armstrong himself saying that they encountered spacecraft on the trip to the moon that they were made to keep quiet about.

I would also like to see a source cited for this.


I heard voice recordings where military personell were picking up UFOs on their radar traveling at speeds unheard of and making sudden right-hand turns.

Even if true, all that means is that there are things which are Unidentified. Well, I wouldn't expect us to be able to identify every one-off event. So I am left thinking, so what. Without some corroborating evidence it seems more likely to me to be a (well understood) glitch in the equipment than something extraordinary (and, apparently, physically impossible).


Of course the evidence backing this is shaky if it is being attempted to be covered up.

Is there any evidence that there is an attempt to cover it up? If so, they are not doing a very good job. There are so many UFO stories...


They ARE releasing more evidence than just testimonies, some of which shows that they are being severely threatened for doing what they are doing.

What is this extra evidence? What evidence shows that they are are bieng threatened? How do these people claim they are threatened and then make a career of appearing in public telling their stories?


Who would be so upset about a "made up" story, and why would people risk their lives for something they did not have every reason to believe in?

What evidence is there that they are risking their lives? Has anyone who claims to have seen/contacted a UFO been killed in mysterious circumstances?


I, for one, am not going to deny the possibilty that, in a universe that is bigger than our minds can comprehend, we are not the only planet in a unique situation that makes it able to support life. Why is that such a crazy idea?

Almost no one here will say that is a crazy idea.


If there were a "space alliance,"so to speak, it would make sense that we wouldnt be granted knowledge of it since we can't even overcome cultural differences within our own species.

If we wouldn't be "granted knowledge" how come some people seem to know so much about it?


"People, we ask you to be skeptical, but not unreasonably so."

I would ask you to be open minded, but not unreasonably so.

captain swoop
2011-Jan-25, 11:53 PM
I heard voice recordings where military personell were picking up UFOs on their radar traveling at speeds unheard of and making sudden right-hand turns.

Would you like to share these recordings?

I have spent many an hour in warship Ops rooms manning Air Warning Radar. While I saw a lot of returns I couldn't pin down I never thought any were 'alien spaceships' I doubt that any military operator would think so.

Peter B
2011-Jan-26, 02:20 PM
I listened to tesimonies from Neil Armstrong himself saying that they encountered spacecraft on the trip to the moon that they were made to keep quiet about.

I'd be curious to know which testimony you're talking about.

While Apollo 11 was heading to the Moon the crew saw a flashing light some distance away from the spacecraft. They asked Mission Control where the third stage of their rocket was, as this was following a similar course to them. Mission Control gave the stage's position as somewhere a long way away from what they were looking at. The crew then decided to leave it at, specifically because they didn't want to encourage UFO stories.

Afterwards, it was decided that what the astronauts saw was one of the four panels which covered the Lunar Module (LM) and connected the third stage of the rocket to the Command/Service Module (CSM). The panels were ejected when the crew extracted the LM, and continued on a course which diverged slightly from that of the CSM. The reason the panel was flashing was that it was tumbling as it moved, and the outside was covered with white paint, making it highly reflective.

If you'd like to read about the sighting as the crew reported it at the time, and as they discussed it in the post-mission debriefing, you can go to http://history.nasa.gov/ap11fj/10day3-flight-plan-update.htm and scroll down to Mission Elapsed Time of 60 hours 45 minutes 38 seconds.

ngc3314
2011-Jan-26, 05:01 PM
Returning for a moment to the Dogon and Sirius: white-dwarf aficionado Jay Holberg has a lengthy discussion of this in his book Sirius: Brightest Diamond in the Night Sky, for which he interviewed the daughter (and anthropologist herself) of the anthropologist at the center of much of the controversy. It's a long and involved story - my best summary is that the cultural-transmission idea for the Sirius knowledge of the Dogon is unproven but a strong possibility (especially since later studies among them did not repeat many of the key elements of the story).

JeffD1
2011-Jan-30, 04:45 AM
They ARE releasing more evidence than just testimonies, some of which shows that they are being severely threatened for doing what they are doing. Who would be so upset about a "made up" story, and why would people risk their lives for something they did not have every reason to believe in?

First of all you are taking their word for it that their description of these threats is entirely accurate, or occured at all. Second, there is a recent example of an individual willing to kill many innocent people because he had a grudge about grammar. Given that example I am quite sure that there could easily be others who would react violently to the notion that the there is an alien alliance 'out there'.


I'm sure some of the people on here also really believe that what crashed at Roswell was just a weather balloon (like they wouldn't have realized that before they informed the press). I, for one, am not going to deny the possibilty that, in a universe that is bigger than our minds can comprehend, we are not the only planet in a unique situation that makes it able to support life. Why is that such a crazy idea?

These two notions are not connected really. I do expect that there are beings on other planets who's intelligence matchs or exceeds ours. That does not equate to a belief that the Roswell incident is an example of such a race having crashed on this planet.

If there were a "space alliance,"so to speak, it would make sense that we wouldnt be granted knowledge of it since we can't even overcome cultural differences within our own species.
True but an arguement from ignorance would insist that this MUST be the case. You come close to doing just that.


"People, we ask you to be skeptical, but not unreasonably so."
,,, and a well respected person said ' do not open your mind so wide that your brains fall out' (though my quote may not be perfect)

Even it only might be true, don't you think that should be enough to keep those weapons out of space JUST in case? These people are claiming to be able to unite humanity, solve our energy crisis, and open us up to a world only dreamed of. It just doesn't make sense to me to allow the mistakes of a few people involved write off everything else the organization has to offer.

Well you just said something about skepticism and when someone starts telling me they can cure all ills, a big bell chimes, lights start flashing, and a refrain plays in my mind, " if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't".
How many religions promise much the same thing?
Has that occured to you?

Gillianren
2011-Jan-30, 05:01 AM
Second, there is a recent example of an individual willing to kill many innocent people because he had a grudge about grammer.

Or grammar, even?

JeffD1
2011-Jan-30, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by JeffD1 Second, there is a recent example of an individual willing to kill many innocent people because he had a grudge about grammer.Or grammar, even?
D'oh!:doh:

fixed

vonmazur
2011-Jan-30, 05:28 AM
Wait! Did Kelsey Grammer have something to do with this?? :)

Now I am really confused!!;)

Dale

JeffD1
2011-Jan-30, 05:56 AM
Wait! Did Kelsey Grammer have something to do with this?? :)

Now I am really confused!!;)

Dale

Nah! I spelled it with a lower case 'g'.

BigDon
2011-Feb-02, 08:11 PM
Would you like to share these recordings?

I have spent many an hour in warship Ops rooms manning Air Warning Radar. While I saw a lot of returns I couldn't pin down I never thought any were 'alien spaceships' I doubt that any military operator would think so.

Yep, every monsoon the AWG-9's on our Tomcats would register massive alien invasions for days after you opened one of the avionics bays while it was raining. Must be something special about humidity in your waveguides that nullifies alien stealth technology.

NEOWatcher
2011-Feb-02, 08:25 PM
Must be something special about humidity in your waveguides that nullifies alien stealth technology.
Of course the aliens have trouble with moisture. Haven't you ever watched "Signs"?

BigDon
2011-Feb-03, 08:32 PM
Of course the aliens have trouble with moisture. Haven't you ever watched "Signs"?

Not that I'll admit. :)