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parallaxicality
2011-Mar-14, 02:58 PM
Has Phil dealt with this yet? I'm looking for some credible debunkings of it online, so I can cite them.

Swift
2011-Mar-14, 03:12 PM
Link? Reference? I hadn't heard there was a WISE shutdown conspiracy.

parallaxicality
2011-Mar-14, 03:23 PM
here's a list of ghits (http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22WISE%22+telescope+shut+down+conspiracy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=889b1624b986748d)

Hungry4info
2011-Mar-14, 05:49 PM
What can be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence -- Christopher Hitchens

kzb
2011-Mar-14, 06:11 PM
I found this in one of the links found by parallaxicality. I was not previously aware that IRAS had apparently found a large planet 50 billion miles out back in 1983. However, I imagine this discovery was found to be some kind of mistake later on?

1983 Washington Post “Front Page” Story -
Mystery Heavenly Body Discovered
a front page story 31-Dec-1983

A heavenly body possibly as large as the giant planet Jupiter and possibly so close to Earth that it would be part of this solar system has been found in the direction of the constellation Orion by an orbiting telescope aboard the U.S. infrared astronomical satellite. So mysterious is the object that astronomers do not know if it is a planet, a giant comet, a nearby “protostar” that never got hot enough to become a star, a distant galaxy so young that it is still in the process of forming its first stars or a galaxy so shrouded in dust that none of the light cast by its stars ever gets through. “All I can tell you is that we don’t know what it is,” Dr. Gerry Neugebauer, IRAS chief scientist for California’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and director of the Palomar Observatory for the California Institute of Technology said in an interview.
The most fascinating explanation of this mystery body, which is so cold it casts no light and has never been seen by optical telescopes on Earth or in space, is that it is a giant gaseous planet, as large as Jupiter and as close to Earth as 50 billion miles. While that may seem like a great distance in earthbound terms, it is a stone’s throw in cosmological terms, so close in fact that it would be the nearest heavenly body to Earth beyond the outermost planet Pluto. “If it is really that close, it would be a part of our solar system,” said Dr. James Houck of Cornell University’s Center for Radio Physics and Space Research and a member of the IRAS science team. “If it is that close, I don’t know how the world’s planetary scientists would even begin to classify it.”

The mystery body was seen twice by the infrared satellite as it scanned the northern sky from last January to November, when the satellite ran out of the supercold helium that allowed its telescope to see the coldest bodies in the heavens. The second observation took place six months after the first and suggested the mystery body had not moved from its spot in the sky near the western edge of the constellation Orion in that time. “This suggests it’s not a comet because a comet would not be as large as the one we’ve observed and a comet would probably have moved,” Houck said. “A planet may have moved if it were as close as 50 billion miles but it could still be a more distant planet and not have moved in six months time.

kzb
2011-Mar-14, 06:13 PM
I found this in one of the links found by parallaxicality. I was not previously aware that IRAS had apparently found a large planet 50 billion miles out back in 1983. However, I imagine this discovery was found to be some kind of mistake later on?

http://thetruthbehindthescenes.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/nibiru-tyche-planet-x-admitted-by-scientists-nasa-shuts-down-space-telescope-wise/

1983 Washington Post “Front Page” Story -
Mystery Heavenly Body Discovered
a front page story 31-Dec-1983

A heavenly body possibly as large as the giant planet Jupiter and possibly so close to Earth that it would be part of this solar system has been found in the direction of the constellation Orion by an orbiting telescope aboard the U.S. infrared astronomical satellite. So mysterious is the object that astronomers do not know if it is a planet, a giant comet, a nearby “protostar” that never got hot enough to become a star, a distant galaxy so young that it is still in the process of forming its first stars or a galaxy so shrouded in dust that none of the light cast by its stars ever gets through. “All I can tell you is that we don’t know what it is,” Dr. Gerry Neugebauer, IRAS chief scientist for California’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and director of the Palomar Observatory for the California Institute of Technology said in an interview.
The most fascinating explanation of this mystery body, which is so cold it casts no light and has never been seen by optical telescopes on Earth or in space, is that it is a giant gaseous planet, as large as Jupiter and as close to Earth as 50 billion miles. While that may seem like a great distance in earthbound terms, it is a stone’s throw in cosmological terms, so close in fact that it would be the nearest heavenly body to Earth beyond the outermost planet Pluto. “If it is really that close, it would be a part of our solar system,” said Dr. James Houck of Cornell University’s Center for Radio Physics and Space Research and a member of the IRAS science team. “If it is that close, I don’t know how the world’s planetary scientists would even begin to classify it.”

The mystery body was seen twice by the infrared satellite as it scanned the northern sky from last January to November, when the satellite ran out of the supercold helium that allowed its telescope to see the coldest bodies in the heavens. The second observation took place six months after the first and suggested the mystery body had not moved from its spot in the sky near the western edge of the constellation Orion in that time. “This suggests it’s not a comet because a comet would not be as large as the one we’ve observed and a comet would probably have moved,” Houck said. “A planet may have moved if it were as close as 50 billion miles but it could still be a more distant planet and not have moved in six months time.

Bobbar
2011-Mar-14, 06:20 PM
This obviously means that 2012 is going to happen. :lol:

So what if it's shutdown? You can't expect it to last forever; there's no refueling it. It was never a secret that it was out of coolant and running on borrowed time (and money).

This is just another odd example of the CT suckers desperately trying to confirm their already deep-seated beliefs.

Van Rijn
2011-Mar-14, 09:17 PM
I found this in one of the links found by parallaxicality. I was not previously aware that IRAS had apparently found a large planet 50 billion miles out back in 1983. However, I imagine this discovery was found to be some kind of mistake later on?

[I]1983 Washington Post “Front Page” Story -
Mystery Heavenly Body Discovered
a front page story 31-Dec-1983

A heavenly body possibly as large as the giant planet Jupiter and possibly so close to Earth that it would be part of this solar system has been found in the direction of the constellation Orion by an orbiting telescope aboard the U.S. infrared astronomical satellite. So mysterious is the object that astronomers do not know if it is a planet, a giant comet, a nearby “protostar” that never got hot enough to become a star, a distant galaxy so young that it is still in the process of forming its first stars or a galaxy so shrouded in dust that none of the light cast by its stars ever gets through.


Reread the part I put in bold. There was no planet, and there was no mistake. If you read the text of the article, it doesn't say that they found a planet. It lists "planet" as one possibility, along with "comet," "protostar" and "distant galaxy." The article makes it clear that at the time of writing the scientists didn't know whiat the infrared source was, and a planet was one possibility.

This comes up regularly with Nibiru/Planet X stuff. Here's a web page on it:

http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/tchester/iras/no_tenth_planet_yet.html

From that page:


A paper published in the March 1, 1984 Astrophysical Journal Letters (278:L63) by Houck et al titled Unidentified point sources in the IRAS minisurvey discussed nine 60 µm sources which had "no counterparts in a variety of catalogs of nonstellar objects. Four objects have no visible counterparts."
It was speculated in that paper that the sources could be either a galaxy emitting much more infrared radiation relative to optical radiation than usual; or be a cool object in the outer solar system; or be a brown dwarf just outside the solar system; or be something else.
[...]
These objects were therefore "mystery objects", at least until the mysteries were solved in short order. These sources all turned out to be distant galaxies except one which was a wisp of Galactic infrared cirrus (Soifer 1987, Annual Review of Astronomy & Astrophysics 25:187), and no such source has ever turned out to be a solar-system object.

Of course, as is typical in such things, the major news people didn't bother to report on the follow-up research. You have to look at the scientific literature, or now, look for a website discussing the follow-up research.

The BA also has a page on this:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/science.html#iras

Trakar
2011-Mar-14, 10:09 PM
I found this in one of the links found by parallaxicality. I was not previously aware that IRAS had apparently found a large planet 50 billion miles out back in 1983. However, I imagine this discovery was found to be some kind of mistake later on?

[I]1983 Washington Post “Front Page” Story -
Mystery Heavenly Body Discovered
a front page story 31-Dec-1983...


got linky (to the WaPo story)?

Trakar
2011-Mar-14, 10:11 PM
here's a list of ghits (http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22WISE%22+telescope+shut+down+conspiracy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=889b1624b986748d)

So, in a nutshell, what is the conspiracy? Other than lack of coolant and money (two pretty compelling explanations) what is the purported ulterior motive?

parallaxicality
2011-Mar-14, 10:20 PM
The idea is that Tyche is Nibiru, and that since Tyche was "discovered", as they put it, shortly after WISE was shut down, they think that the shutdown was part of a conspiracy to keep Nibiru/Tyche secret.

Van Rijn
2011-Mar-14, 10:29 PM
Has Phil dealt with this yet? I'm looking for some credible debunkings of it online, so I can cite them.

It was designed for a limited operation time. Apparently some of the instruments that can work at higher temperature could work for a bit longer, but back in May 2010 it was apparently decided not to do that for fiscal reasons. The shut down was expected and wasn't recently planned.

See for instance:

http://www.universetoday.com/70928/wise-cryostat-is-depleting/

http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-98100.html

http://www.space.com/10895-nasa-wise-space-telescope-mission-ends.html

parallaxicality
2011-Mar-14, 10:42 PM
Yeah, but I was hoping that I could find a credible source mentioning the conspiracy theory, so I can mention it on Wikipedia without getting called out for bad sourcing. I can't sift through the thousands of bad pages; I was hoping someone might know a site that would deal with it, so I can cut through the chaff.

slang
2011-Mar-15, 01:12 AM
Burden of proof! ... Burden of proof! ... Burden of proof! (Well, in Charmed they often do their chants 3 times, maybe this will help the magic or skepticism work..)

If the shutdown of WISE was intended to hide something, why would they do it so clumsily? Why announce it beforehand? Why not claim some catastrophic failure? I might just as well claim that Skylab was allowed to burn up in the atmosphere to get rid of an infestation of alien bugs. Don't believe it? Well, 200 of 300 compounds in the Skylab 4 atmosphere, sampled at different times during the mission, could not be identified!!!111~~11oneone (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/240349)! There's also a credible witness report from Van Rijn's elf.

Tenshu
2011-Mar-15, 02:47 AM
You think I would've heard about this one, geez more stuff to worry about?

Did it just burn out or freeze up when it broke or is there more to it?

slang
2011-Mar-15, 08:01 AM
Did it just burn out or freeze up when it broke or is there more to it?

Neither. WISE (http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/) required cryogenic coolant to keep it cold enough (since the Sun will heat it up again) for its very sensitive instruments to pick up some very weak infrared sources. As designed, that coolant ran out, resulting in a much less effective IR telescope, with only two of its four sensors still working a little bit. The spacecraft worked as designed, it did what is was funded to do. That's it. No conspiracy.

gwiz
2011-Mar-15, 10:19 AM
Neither. WISE (http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/) required cryogenic coolant to keep it cold enough (since the Sun will heat it up again) for its very sensitive instruments to pick up some very weak infrared sources. As designed, that coolant ran out, resulting in a much less effective IR telescope, with only two of its four sensors still working a little bit. The spacecraft worked as designed, it did what is was funded to do. That's it. No conspiracy.
The remaining two sensors were left to operate for a few months until a complete scan of the asteroid belt was complete, and then the operations were ended.

Skyfire
2011-Mar-15, 10:31 AM
Well, A quick look at the first google link took me to the White Owl Conspiracy site (http://www.whiteowlconspiracy.com/2011/02/wise-space-telescope-is-shut-down.html) where the article there dated SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2011 states:


NASA shut down its WISE spacecraft – short for Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer — at 3 p.m. ET Thursday.

WISE launched on Dec. 14, 2009, to begin a 10-month mission to collect data to be stitched together into a composite map of the entire sky.

In late September 2010, WISE ran out of the coolant needed to chill its infrared detectors.

The observatory then began an extended mission, dubbed theNEOWISE Post-Cryogenic Mission. Without coolant to prevent its instruments from warming up, WISE operated on two of its four detectors, training its eyes on objects within our solar system.

Since the spacecraft and telescope were in good condition before the mission's end, Wright proposed a three-month extension in order to complete the second half of the observatory's second sky survey. In May 2010, a NASA panel advised against the extension, however, which would have added $6.5 million to the program's cost.

After WISE's coolant ran out, mission scientists came up with an alternative plan – the NEOWISE mission – to seek out near-Earth asteroids. That mission extension cost substantially less, about $400,000, NASA officials have said.

So the conspiracy is what, exactly? It seems it achieved its mission and lasted the planned 10 months, and they even managed to extend its use by changing to an alternative plan for a further three months after its coolant ran out.

Just because they 'mothball' a satellite once it has reached beyond its operational window, and also one of its main components has run out doesn't mean there is any conspiracy! Remember, its job is mainly as an Infra Red detection device, thus the detector has to be super-cooled. The only way to do that is to carry coolant that eventually gets used up.

Trakar
2011-Mar-15, 02:52 PM
The idea is that Tyche is Nibiru, and that since Tyche was "discovered", as they put it, shortly after WISE was shut down, they think that the shutdown was part of a conspiracy to keep Nibiru/Tyche secret.

Where is the benefit to NASA or the Government in general to keep such information (even if true) secret? There would seem to be more potential gain from claiming such was true when it was known to be false than from claiming it false. Government gains the most when people are scared and give them a blank check to soothe their fears,...ask any of the 9/11 Truth movement!

kzb
2011-Mar-15, 06:02 PM
OK I'd like to apologise for that post (#6) above. I should have done some more research before I posted it. Like Van Rijn said, it seems the mystery IRAS objects were all explained. This information is all over the place on the web.

JustAFriend
2011-Mar-17, 02:14 AM
If we assigned a CT to every bit of space hardware that broke down
because it could reveal "the TRUTH", we'd have a lot of CTs...... oh, wait.....

NGCHunter
2011-Mar-17, 08:16 PM
You would think that if there was a conspiracy to hide "Nibiru" secretly being observed by WISE, they would want to keep the telescope operating rather than shut it down. If, as some Nibiru believers claim, WISE is the only telescope in existence other than IRAS that can see this magically-invisible-yet-fast-approaching planet/brown dwarf, they would want to be able to watch it for more than just a few months. That is, unless it's somehow so cold (yet contradictorily absorbs "all light that hits it" as many of them claim) that WISE needed its cryogenic coolant to see it at all, in which case the shutdown itself is not a conspiracy; they would have shut it down in that scenario for the reason stated.

If the shutdown was a conspiracy and the coolant depletion was just an excuse then the claim doesn't even seem to be internally consistent. If coolant wasn't necessary to detect it, then the question is not only why didn't they keep operating WISE under the pretenses of an extended study, but why didn't IRAS also continue operating long past the point its coolant expired? Actually I do see that at least some conspiracy theorists claim that is exactly what happened (warning, opening post is chock full of woo) http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/p/30561/369323.aspx
We know this is false though; IRAS can be observed in amateur telescopes and as it is not actively maintained you can see it tumbling, quite incompatible with any claim of a secret observing mission. Will WISE similarly start tumbling due to gravitational gradients, etc, or did they need to leave the attitude control systems active in the hibernation mode they put it into so that it could be used again later if the funds are made available? It would be nice to be able to acquire video of it tumbling to present as evidence against any future claims that it's secretly "still being used."

slang
2011-Apr-10, 10:07 PM
Shutdown, but still making the news!

WISE Mission Spots 'Horseshoe' Asteroid (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-112)

Predictably, NASA does not admit that this is, in fact, Nibiru.:whistle:

RAMS57
2011-Apr-11, 06:40 AM
It was put in hibernation due to mission end. It had executed its profile completely and then some.

From NASA:

"In November 2010, the scientific journal Icarus published a paper by astrophysicists John Matese and Daniel Whitmire, who proposed the existence of a binary companion to our sun, larger than Jupiter, in the long-hypothesized "Oort cloud" -- a faraway repository of small icy bodies at the edge of our solar system. The researchers use the name "Tyche" for the hypothetical planet. Their paper argues that evidence for the planet would have been recorded by the Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE).

WISE is a NASA mission, launched in December 2009, which scanned the entire celestial sky at four infrared wavelengths about 1.5 times. It captured more than 2.7 million images of objects in space, ranging from faraway galaxies to asteroids and comets relatively close to Earth. Recently, WISE completed an extended mission, allowing it to finish a complete scan of the asteroid belt, and two complete scans of the more distant universe, in two infrared bands. So far, the mission's discoveries of previously unknown objects include an ultra-cold star or brown dwarf, 20 comets, 134 near-Earth objects (NEOs), and more than 33,000 asteroids in the main belt between Mars and Jupiter.

Following its successful survey, WISE was put into hibernation in February 2011. Analysis of WISE data continues. A preliminary public release of the first 14 weeks of data is planned for April 2011, and the final release of the full survey is planned for March 2012."

Citation: WISE (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/WISE/news/wise20110218.html)

Hope this is helpful.

Robert

foreverhear
2011-May-27, 05:04 AM
Planet "X" facts http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=14416

Luckmeister
2011-May-27, 04:57 PM
Planet "X" facts http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=14416

Welcome to BAUT and thanks for posting the link. David Morrison doesn't mince words when debunking the rogue comet nonsense.

wildespace
2011-May-28, 09:28 AM
WISE conspiracy is as lousy as conspiracy theories go. Wikipedia can definitely do without it being mentioned.

What was said was something along the lines of "Isn't it funny that NASA just shut down a telescope designed to look for Nibiru / Planet X / Tyche / Nemesis! They are clearly hiding something!"

It's the usual attitude and clutching at straws. Most recently, they are crying out at NASA shutting down the NEO search program.

Selenite
2011-May-28, 03:34 PM
WISE conspiracy is as lousy as conspiracy theories go. Wikipedia can definitely do without it being mentioned.

What was said was something along the lines of "Isn't it funny that NASA just shut down a telescope designed to look for Nibiru / Planet X / Tyche / Nemesis! They are clearly hiding something!"

It's the usual attitude and clutching at straws. Most recently, they are crying out at NASA shutting down the NEO search program.

Welcome to BAUT :)

Yes...one gets the impression sometimes that NASA couldn't change a light bulb in a store room without the conspiracy theorists exclaiming that's it's an attempt to put the public in the dark.

streather
2011-May-28, 09:22 PM
I've never understood what would be the major benefits of covering up the existence of niribu.

Selenite
2011-May-28, 11:02 PM
I've never understood what would be the major benefits of covering up the existence of niribu.

Near as I can decipher from the hysterical ramblings of recent CTs, the purpose of the cover-up is to maintain order in society and prevent a mass panic while the PTB (powers that be) make good their escape either in the secretly constructed Space Ark or safely buried in the earth's crust ŕ la Deep 13...take your pick.

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 01:56 AM
Greetings,

I wonder why no one has purposed any sort of 'Mothership' for all humans, or at least different countries, just in case an event like this happened?

It's both easy and hard for me to believe this whole 'Nibiru' 'Elenin' conspiracy stuff, because both sides of the playing field are such extreme opposites.

The whole thing with Moscow building an additional 5,000 bomb shelters is a bit odd, along with all of the 'conspiracies' and mythologies surround these dates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoNbpyNvmDM

You can also view Dr. Carl Calleman's latest videos explaining why he thinks Elenin, Levy, and Honda may fulfill several ancient prophecies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Xt1IUs_Hg

http://www.calleman.com/content/articles/Comets_Honda_Elenin.htm

If you haven't already, you can read why Dr. Calleman says December 21, 2012 is nothing more than a date set by the media that is meaningless.

http://www.calleman.com/content/articles/risk_of_2012.htm

He claims the true date is October 28, 2011... Which ironically is around the dates that Elenin, Levy, and Honda will all be close to our planet. Even more ironically is that fact that our friend "Harold Camping" who was incorrect for the 2nd time about the world ending, has predicted October 21, 2011 for his new date.

We could further go into breaking down 'Leonid Elenin' ... But I really don't feel like going there, and I know the mods probably wouldn't appreciate it.

Hopefully this post doesn't get deleted... If you guys can debunk this stuff PLEASE DO IT, because it's really freaking me out lately.

If it's all another Y2K... I will be the happiest person alive.

Godspeed.

Van Rijn
2011-Jun-28, 02:33 AM
Greetings,

I wonder why no one has purposed any sort of 'Mothership' for all humans, or at least different countries, just in case an event like this happened?


Should we prepare for the possibility of dragon attack? That's not a rhetorical question. I'd be interested in your answer.


It's both easy and hard for me to believe this whole 'Nibiru' 'Elenin' conspiracy stuff, because both sides of the playing field are such extreme opposites.


That's usually the way it plays out with claims that have no basis in reality. There will be some people that will stick very hard to the belief, despite the lack of evidence, and others that will wonder what all the fuss is about.



You can also view Dr. Carl Calleman's latest videos explaining why he thinks Elenin, Levy, and Honda may fulfill several ancient prophecies.


I don't have patience for many videos, and certainly not for something like that. I did look at one of the websites you linked to, and he had a lot of stuff about Nibiru, Sitchin, various prophecies, consciousness, and so on. I didn't see anything that looked like an objective, evidence supported argument.



Hopefully this post doesn't get deleted... If you guys can debunk this stuff PLEASE DO IT, because it's really freaking me out lately.


That isn't the way things work here. it's really up to you to present an ATM/CT argument and the supporting evidence. It's not up to us to prove invisible elves don't exist. Anyway, I don't know what's left to debunk on 2012 and related arguments.

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 02:47 AM
It will work out the same, no matter what anyone says. Either it will happen or not...

But I warn you against making the mistakes of our ancestors, after all, we wouldn't be the first civilization to be "caught with our pants down"...

Gillianren
2011-Jun-28, 03:34 AM
Actually, the decline of most civilizations has to do with internal influences as much as anything. Even when there are external influences, they are exacerbated by foolishness within the civilization. Spain, for example, wasn't brought down by anyone outside. They handled their money badly, and the people they conquered were done letting another country across the ocean tell them what to do.

Van Rijn
2011-Jun-28, 03:37 AM
It will work out the same, no matter what anyone says. Either it will happen or not...

But I warn you against making the mistakes of our ancestors, after all, we wouldn't be the first civilization to be "caught with our pants down"...

Evidence would be nice. I notice you didn't answer my question. Should we prepare for the possibility of dragon attack? More questions: How would we prepare for dragon attack? How does one prepare for something when there is no information about it?

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 03:41 AM
Well when you say such things / give off emotions as not caring what so ever about 'consciousness' it's clear that we think differently of things.

Science often times reminds me why I dropped out of school and started my business. The 'in the box' mentality never suited me.

To answer your question, No I don't think it would be fair to discuss how to survive a dragon attack.

However, the Sumerians spoke of Planet X / Nibiru in the their tablets, and if you think of that as strictly 'mythology' and 'story telling' then you would never believe such a thing until you see it with your own eyes.

No sense in trying to convince you, I was simply putting the information out for others to see.

Selenite
2011-Jun-28, 04:10 AM
However, the Sumerians spoke of Planet X / Nibiru in the their tablets, and if you think of that as strictly 'mythology' and 'story telling' then you would never believe such a thing until you see it with your own eyes.

No sense in trying to convince you, I was simply putting the information out for others to see.

According to Sumerian creation mythology, the gods originally created humans as servants for themselves but freed them when they became too much to handle. They also envisioned the universe as a closed dome surrounded by a primordial saltwater sea. I don't believe in these particular myths. Why should I believe in Planet X /Nibiru?

There are so many real problems to worry about and people work themselves into fits over crumbling Sumerian tablets and some imaginary planet ricocheting around the solar system.

Van Rijn
2011-Jun-28, 04:46 AM
Science often times reminds me why I dropped out of school and started my business. The 'in the box' mentality never suited me.


So it sounds like you're admitting there isn't any scientific argument that you'd accept. You're arguing belief.


To answer your question, No I don't think it would be fair to discuss how to survive a dragon attack.


Okay, and that's exactly what I think about your question.



However, the Sumerians spoke of Planet X / Nibiru in the their tablets


Based on Sitchin's claim? The one that professional archaeologists find ridiculous? Oh, and what tablets are you referring to?


and if you think of that as strictly 'mythology' and 'story telling' then you would never believe such a thing until you see it with your own eyes.


Well, if I did believe Sitchin, Nibiru wouldn't be coming into the inner solar system for a long time. However, there isn't any Nibiru. A 3600 year orbit would be incredibly unstable. It's unlikely it would have two orbits with the same period and in a few more orbits it would either head off permanently into deep space or settle into a close solar orbit. So, it physically doesn't make sense. And then there's the issue that there is no evidence of any past perturbation, or any visual evidence.

You might as well worry about dragon attack.



No sense in trying to convince you, I was simply putting the information out for others to see.

What information?

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 05:19 AM
Well, if we want to go down the Sumerian route...

They said it was the 'home' of the Annunaki but of course that was based off of very limited understanding by a 5,000 year old civilization.

If the Annunaki were a HIGHLY evolved race (Level 2 or 3 based on Michio Kaku's scale), whose to say they could not control a planetary body?

If that were true, there would be no 'predictions' and no way to tell on our 'linear' time scale when Nibiru would make its next passage.

It could appear with moments notice and throw all 'predictions' out the window.

Being that evidently you don't believe in Sumerian history or the Annunaki, I doubt this way of thought will resonate with you.

Regards

Gillianren
2011-Jun-28, 05:29 AM
If the Annunaki were a HIGHLY evolved race (Level 2 or 3 based on Michio Kaku's scale), whose to say they could not control a planetary body?

Well, basic physics, but leave that aside. Why should we believe they were? Do you (direct question) believe the mythology of every culture, or just the Sumerians? What do you do when the mythology contradicts?

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 06:02 AM
I have taken a liking to Sumerian mythology because they explain how man, our bodies/conduits in particular, were created on Earth.

However I do not subscribe to being an atheist or any other religion for that matter.

Over years of research, and watching people like Michael Newton (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LanURyWHKyA)
And reading of things/people such as "Each soul enters with a mission. We all have a mission to perform." - Edgar Cayce

I have formed a pretty strong understanding about "life" (from my perspective).

In my view of how this works, I seriously doubt "basic physics" has a lot to do with things... But then again
why did I create this reply on a purely scientific board?

I compute things in my head after researching several different angles and then draw conclusions. And yes believe it or
not I do try to research scientific data and I love when I'm proven wrong, less to worry about in this life! :-)

But, For those that ONLY rely on scientific data, it would be a never ending argument of consciousness... "souls" if you will...
style beliefs, vs scientists who think we are Apes that evolved and after death there is nothing vs Christian scientists proclaiming
Jesus to being the savior of all humanity.

From my perspective, I find it not hard to believe that a level 2-3 civilization could manipulate what you consider 'physics' very easily, and
for that matter probably aren't limited to only traveling in the 3rd density.

As to why I believe they were a type 2-3 civilization? Well They were genetic masters according to the mythology, aided in the creation of our bodies,
and also had the ability to leave Nibiru to and come to Earth for various reasons... Such as harvesting resources, etc. In addition, they must have the had
the ability to 'program' (?) Nibiru to appear instantly, which is why ancient civilizations didn't even see it coming.

If you look at most major religions, they all pretty much lead to one place... You just have to 'take the mask off'.

Gillianren
2011-Jun-28, 06:28 AM
I have taken a liking to Sumerian mythology because they explain how man, our bodies/conduits in particular, were created on Earth.

So correct me if I have what you're saying wrong, but you basically believe in Sumerian mythology because you think it's neat. Because you are aware that one of the universals of mythology is that every culture has a creation myth, right? Literally every culture has an explanation as to how humans were created on Earth.

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 06:32 AM
So correct me if I have what you're saying wrong, but you basically believe in Sumerian mythology because you think it's neat. Because you are aware that one of the universals of mythology is that every culture has a creation myth, right? Literally every culture has an explanation as to how humans were created on Earth.

Okay, let me correct you. I take interest in Sumerian mythology because nearly every religion be can connected to it.

It is the most impressive non "personified" way of thinking that I've heard. It's easier for me to believe in advanced civilizations then
"magic" that can't be explained at all. And remember when we think of "advanced technology", we think space shuttle, iPhone, whatever...
Whose to say their 'technology' has to be everywhere remotely like Human ideas? Perhaps a completely different angle from the beginning.

Van Rijn
2011-Jun-28, 06:46 AM
If that were true, there would be no 'predictions' and no way to tell on our 'linear' time scale when Nibiru would make its next passage.


So, we can't see it, the lack of perturbation is apparently irrelevant, but it could appear at any time because of magical technology. Something that is based on your version of Sitchin's claims, which aren't supported by good archaeological evidence.

How is this not a religious view? What evidence could possibly make you NOT believe it?

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 06:59 AM
I don't sit around and hope for these things to happen you know... I hope none of it happens. I have a life here on Earth that I want to live.

Van Rijn
2011-Jun-28, 07:02 AM
That's not an answer to my questions. Whether you want it or not, you seem to believe in it. How is this not a religious view? What evidence could possibly make you NOT believe it?

vasotech
2011-Jun-28, 07:30 AM
Well nothing really, unless you could disprove all of ancient mythology, and you could also convince me that we are soul less apes.

Which isn't going to happen. As far as Nibiru goes... Who knows, but I do know that Terrestrial scientists would not believe it
until suddenly it's there. They would have to make a new classification "super giant planet".

I think people that think it is a Brown dwarf star are sadly mistaken and mislead. Our sun most likely has a binary companion, but
it would never actually come into the inner solar system... Trust me, I'm not your average "head for the hills" a Brown Dwarf star
called Elenin is coming to get us... Conspiracy theorist.

I have a lot of research and time invested in my beliefs, and I like them the way they are.

Let's hope the sightings of this theorized in 3760BC and 1-12AD are constant, and we don't see this thing for a long time.

parallaxicality
2011-Jun-28, 08:00 AM
Well nothing really, unless you could disprove all of ancient mythology, and you could also convince me that we are soul less apes.

What's wrong with being an ape? Apes are cool. And unless you can ensoul someone through genetic manipulation, I don't see how Sitchin's mythos counters that assertion. And I've read several of his books and not once does he mention an afterlife.


As far as Nibiru goes... Who knows, but I do know that Terrestrial scientists would not believe it
until suddenly it's there. They would have to make a new classification "super giant planet".

You mean a super-Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_earth)? Or perhaps a Sub-brown dwarf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-brown_dwarf)?

Such an object in our Solar System would have thrown Jupiter out of its orbit millions of years ago. It is simply not possible for our Solar System, with its nice circular orbits, to exist as it does with such an object in it.


Trust me, I'm not your average "head for the hills" a Brown Dwarf star
called Elenin is coming to get us... Conspiracy theorist.

So why did you resurrect this thread? There are plenty of Sitchin-related threads on this board that don't mention imminent apocalypse.

Tog
2011-Jun-28, 08:28 AM
Having to disprove all ancient mythology sort of implies we take it for granted that it happened as passed down through the ages. I don't fully accept things people tell me happened the day before yesterday. Anytime you have a human involved in passing on information, you get two types of contamination, Personal bias, and misunderstandings.

Misunderstandings are clear enough from playing the telephone game. You give someone a message, they pass it to someone else, who passes it on, and so on, until it's gone thought about 10 people. By the time you get the message back, it might be nothing at all like what you sent in the first place.

Personal bias is also easy to confirm. Those old tablets are not in English. Any translation of them will be left to the person doing the translating to do it correctly. Since there is no one to confirm any one version, they end up with variations. The fact that the one you seem to be basing this all on is one of the more widely refuted ones, sort of points us toward the validity of it. People see what they want to see. This is why we have peer review.

As for tech that allows a super giant planet to just pop in, you may as well live in fear of the Clothes Dryer Vortex breaking free and opening behind you. All those disappearing socks are at least one bit of observational evidence such a vortex exists, and that's one more than Nibiru has.

Luckmeister
2011-Jun-28, 08:53 AM
I have a lot of research and time invested in my beliefs, and I like them the way they are.

I just finished a long post detailing my thoughts on skepticism and why I feel you should work to develop critical thinking skills and then decided, rather than boring you, to just sum it up as -- Have a desire to know instead of just a desire to believe.

Mike

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jun-28, 10:58 AM
Evidence would be nice. I notice you didn't answer my question. Should we prepare for the possibility of dragon attack? More questions: How would we prepare for dragon attack? How does one prepare for something when there is no information about it?
We are already prepared for dragons. Put couple of Warthogs against a flight of dragons and the dragons are soup.

Strange
2011-Jun-28, 11:09 AM
and the dragons are soup.

Mmmm... dragon soup.

One of our local pubs used to serve dragon pie (lots of chilli)

NEOWatcher
2011-Jun-28, 12:57 PM
I have a lot of research and time invested in my beliefs, and I like them the way they are.
That statement says alot about where this discussion is headed. I don't mind you feeling comfortable with your beliefs, but when you try to impose your thinking on others, then I have issues.

What do you aim to accomplish with your opinion about things that we have seen many times before?



It's both easy and hard for me to believe this whole 'Nibiru' 'Elenin' conspiracy stuff, because both sides of the playing field are such extreme opposites.
Yes; very opposite, but there's one big difference between the two. Consistency.
The scientific side has been going down the same path continually revising (not changing) thier findings and how it applies to the real world. The other side just seems to pop in and out with the idea of the day.



Science often times reminds me why I dropped out of school and started my business. The 'in the box' mentality never suited me.
I guess you don't understand what "out of the box" really means in the real world.
First off, school is not telling you "think this way", it is giving you the framework of where to start.
Most researchers are "out of the box" thinkers. Theories are usually based on "what if's". For example, Einstein was famous for his "out of the box" thinking about light.

Swift
2011-Jun-28, 01:33 PM
vasotech

No sense in trying to convince you, I was simply putting the information out for others to see.
No, that is not the way it works around here. It is obvious you are doing more than "simply putting the information out", nor are you 'just asking questions" about it. You are advocating a non-mainstream position, and if you are going to do that on BAUT you have to answer questions put to you and to present evidence.


But, For those that ONLY rely on scientific data, it would be a never ending argument of consciousness... "souls" if you will...
style beliefs, vs scientists who think we are Apes that evolved and after death there is nothing vs Christian scientists proclaiming Jesus to being the savior of all humanity.
On a science forum with do ONLY rely on scientific data. Do not discuss your religious or spirtual beliefs and they do not constitute evidence to support these claims.


Well nothing really, unless you could disprove all of ancient mythology, and you could also convince me that we are soul less apes.

No, it is not up to everyone else to disprove any or all ancient mythology, or to prove a mainstream position. It is up to you to prove your position; those are our rules.

NEOWatcher
2011-Jun-28, 01:48 PM
Actually; it's fairly easy to disprove ancient mythology. The very word says it's not proven.

myth   /mɪθ/ [mith] (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth)
–noun
1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.

cjameshuff
2011-Jun-28, 02:31 PM
If it's all another Y2K... I will be the happiest person alive.

It's not another Y2K. Y2K was about a real problem that could have caused a great deal of widespread trouble if it hadn't been fixed, not some fantasy that at best has no real world evidence to substantiate it, and is in fact more often wildly in conflict with reality.

Gillianren
2011-Jun-28, 05:43 PM
Okay, let me correct you. I take interest in Sumerian mythology because nearly every religion be can connected to it.

Only if you look at "nearly every religion" on an extremely limited basis. Yes, the religions which sprang up around the Mediterranean can be connected to the Sumerian religion. That's only logic, given how much the Sumerians traded. Given that they predated most of the religions we still know of in that area. However, I encourage you to consider other continents. After all, if you think the Aztec religion died out because of any inferiority within the religion, you're awfully ignorant of history.

People who take mythology literally show that they don't understand human nature. You're not supposed to believe in magic. You're supposed to recognize that the people who wrote the myths believed in magic. After all, they didn't have science as a framework to build on. When you don't have any better explanation, yes, magic is what comes to mind. However, why assume they're describing events correctly? They didn't understand them in the first place. Isn't it much more logical to say that the mythology which came down to us--and remember that it was an oral tradition before it was written down, so we don't have the "original" form anyway--is at best a perception of events through a filter of misunderstanding? And then, following what we know of when it comes to human nature, that it was embellished in the telling?

Strange
2011-Jun-28, 10:01 PM
I have a lot of research and time invested in my beliefs, and I like them the way they are.

I am curious what the word "research" means to you. For some people it just means watching some YouTube videos, and reading websites/books with implausible conspiracy theories and other fantasies (and believing everything they see). For other people research would mean reading the work of acknowledged experts in the field who have published in reputable journals and thinking critically about the evidence presented. And some would learn to read Akkadian or Sumerian to check the primary sources for themselves.

So far, you sound like you are in the "I saw it on YouTube so it must be true" class - please prove me wrong...

slang
2011-Jun-28, 11:18 PM
For some people it just means watching some YouTube videos, and reading websites/books with implausible conspiracy theories and other fantasies (and believing everything they see).


And yes, Hastings has no skill or credentials as a researcher. His research method appears to be:

1. Hear story.
2. Believe story.

A classic, IMHO. ;)

vasotech
2011-Jun-29, 05:39 PM
Greetings,

Can you tell what this object is in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEPRuviyDs4

Skip to around 1:22 to see the object. While I disagree with him that it has moved... Considering that WWT and Google Sky do not update on a regular basis... It is an interesting object.

What do you make of it?

Gillianren
2011-Jun-29, 06:01 PM
What do you make of it?

That it's a subject change and you should answer the questions you've been asked?

NEOWatcher
2011-Jun-29, 06:03 PM
What do you make of it?
Not much.

I would say the object is a nebula pictured with different filters or rendering.
And those other "objects" in front of it? Stars.
If this is Nibiru, then it's definitely still many light years away.

I thought getting information from a Youtube video was questionable, but a Youtube video that shows evidence from another Youtube video. That's questionable squared.

Tog
2011-Jun-29, 06:12 PM
To me it looks like it has a mirror image shape of the bright star to the left of it, Propus, according to WWT. it also looks like it has a secondary mirror shadow and shadows from the spider. I'll sleep well enough calling it a reflection. Though it is odd that it shows up in two different images as basically the same thing.

Strange
2011-Jun-29, 06:22 PM
Greetings,

Can you tell what this object is in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEPRuviyDs4

Skip to around 1:22 to see the object. While I disagree with him that it has moved... Considering that WWT and Google Sky do not update on a regular basis... It is an interesting object.

I think I can take this as the answer to my question in post #58. Thanks.


What do you make of it?

It is on YouTube. That is enough (for me, anyway) to dismiss it. YouTube is like popular TV without the academic integrity.

Daggerstab
2011-Jun-29, 07:12 PM
Can you tell what this object is in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEPRuviyDs4

Skip to around 1:22 to see the object. While I disagree with him that it has moved... Considering that WWT and Google Sky do not update on a regular basis... It is an interesting object.

What do you make of it?

According to my sooper-dooper sikrit sources, it's most likely caused by one of the lights of an airplane that passed through the telescope's field of view when it was shooting that plate.

You can actually find online a scan of the original plate from which the WWT mosaic was assembled (actually, the Digital Sky Survey):
http://archive.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_search?v=poss2ukstu_red&r=06+08+55&d=22+47+21&e=J2000&h=60.0&w=60.0&f=gif&c=none&fov=NONE&v3=

As you can see, there are multiple instances of this "object" and a light streak. As with most astronomical photos, it was a long exposure.

The search engine is here:
http://archive.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_plate_finder

kheider
2011-Jun-30, 03:19 PM
Comet 2010 X1 Elenin, Nibiru and Google Sky
Sunday, June 26, 2011
Ian Musgrave
http://astroblogger.blogspot.com/2011/06/comet-2010-x1-elenin-nibiru-and-google.html

What a telescope's SPIDER (the secondary diagonal mirror support) looks like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Newtonianscope-inside.JPG

-- Kevin Heider

vasotech
2011-Jul-01, 09:12 PM
What about this?

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/02/russian-leader-confirms-to-pope-new-planet-arrival-in-2012/

Just **...? I'm not sure how credible EUTimes is but I came across this today.

Tog
2011-Jul-01, 09:33 PM
Really?

A 4 Jupiter mass planet at 15000 AU and no one can see it? And it will be here in at most, 18 months. Let's math that.

1 AU= about 150 million KM. 15000 au, is about equal to 2.25e12 km
18 months is about 548 days, or 13140 hours. That's 47.3 million seconds. That planet would be coming into the solar system at an average velocity of 47568 km/sec. The max speed something can orbit the sun and still be in our system is 71 km/sec.

Implausible global conspiracies of silence and invisible giant planets aside, grade school math shows it's wrong.

LaurelHS
2011-Jul-01, 09:34 PM
David Morrison's take on Tyche:
http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=14306

Strange
2011-Jul-01, 09:36 PM
I'm not sure how credible EUTimes ...

Not very, if this is typical of their "journalism". They manage to work Velikovsky and the electric universe in there as well. It almost makes the Daily Mail look like a newspaper.

Garrison
2011-Jul-01, 11:06 PM
Seriously which civilization are you going to believe? Ancient Sumerians/Mayans/Babylonians equipped with nothing more than the mark 1 eyeball or the one that can put telescopes in space?

Strange
2011-Jul-01, 11:18 PM
But they are, like, ancient, man.

Van Rijn
2011-Jul-01, 11:31 PM
Heh. But the issue is really modern unsupported claims about what ancient civilizations said versus actual science done with advanced telescopes.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jul-01, 11:48 PM
What about this?

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/02/russian-leader-confirms-to-pope-new-planet-arrival-in-2012/

Just **...? I'm not sure how credible EUTimes is but I came across this today.
Is EU short for Electric Universe?

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jul-02, 12:08 AM
Really?

A 4 Jupiter mass planet at 15000 AU and no one can see it? And it will be here in at most, 18 months. Let's math that.

1 AU= about 150 million KM. 15000 au, is about equal to 2.25e12 km
18 months is about 548 days, or 13140 hours. That's 47.3 million seconds. That planet would be coming into the solar system at an average velocity of 47568 km/sec. The max speed something can orbit the sun and still be in our system is 71 km/sec.

Implausible global conspiracies of silence and invisible giant planets aside, grade school math shows it's wrong.
Sounds like someone got things really wrong.
The original news were about a possible 4J mass planet orbiting the sun in the oort cloud, hinted at by data from WISE and expected to be pinned down sufficiently to be confirmed or denied after another 2 years of observation.

Apparently the 2 years of observation became "will be here in 2012" through the classical "I don't know half the words in this article, but I'll make a guess and write from that" school of journalism.

Daggerstab
2011-Jul-02, 05:37 AM
What about this?

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/02/russian-leader-confirms-to-pope-new-planet-arrival-in-2012/

Just **...? I'm not sure how credible EUTimes is but I came across this today.

Yes, it's "just **". Did you notice the source link at the bottom of the "article"? The source is "Sorcha Faal":
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1451.htm
Even conspiracy theorists think everything he/she writes is made up to attract traffic and subscribers. Just Google the name.

As for the "European Union Times"... it's a pretend "news site" run by conspiracy theorists with a racist bent. Seriously:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/12/16/racist-skinheads-wife-behind-european-news-website/

NEOWatcher
2011-Jul-05, 02:24 PM
Any site that has exit popups with message boxes that are difficult to get rid of are not valid sites in my book. Valid news sites don't resort to such advertising (even though they are irritating in thier own way).